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[118.6] Capital Balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Niraia
Starcakes
#21 - 2016-06-10 11:35:05 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Networked Sensor Array bonus to Scan Resolution now has a stacking penalty with sensor boosters.
Networked Sensor Array bonus to Scan Resolution reduced to 500% (from 900%)


Mean! Cry

Tavion Al
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-06-10 11:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tavion Al
Agrakari Saraki wrote:
The original 900% NSA scanres boost made it a nightmare to keep carriers tackled with dictors, as they just instalock you and alpha the dictor off the field. If the intention was to prevent this, I don't think that the nerf to 500% meaningfully improves this situation. The carriers can still lock dictors in 3 seconds, which isn't enough time to burn out of your bubble and escape. Add to that the immense buff to cruiser application, and even HICs have a hard time keeping a carrier tackled before help arrives.

I think that this situation is negatively impacting content generation by allowing carriers to clear their tackle without assistance, leading to less fleet fights and content generated over tackled carriers.


Reducing it from +900% to +500% was not the only nerf to carrier scan res. Read the full notes, they are now stacking penalizied with SEBOs. Makeing the total scan res about half as much as it used to be. Here is math:

Before upcoming patch, Thanatos:
base*NSA*SEBO1*SEBO2 (1st penalty) *SEBO3 (2nd penalty)
= 81.3mm * 10 * 1.6 * (1+(0.6*0.869)) * (1+(0.6*0.571)) = 2657 mm
>>> 0.8 second lock time on a frigate.

After upcoming patch, Thanatos:
base*NSA*SEBO1 (1st penalty) *SEBO2 (2nd penalty) *SEBO3 (3rd penalty)
= 81.3mm * 6 * (1+(0.6*0.869)) * (1+(0.6*0.571)) * (1+(0.6*0.283)) = 1165 mm
>>> 1.9 second lock time on a frigate.

It is still a very fast lock, at least its no longer an instant lock... also fitting 3 SEBOs in the precious midslots as well as useing a highslot is costly...

I think the locking speed part of the problem might be fixxed. The application is still redonkulus though. They will still 1-shot every frigate.
Grookshank
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2016-06-10 11:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Grookshank
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Quote:
Naglfar has an additional +60 CPU

No powergrid for the extra gun?



doesn't need it

An extra gun is about 100k PG; there are multiple fit that are already tight (buffer, cap booster, sb). How does the nag not need the pg for the extra gun, just because it does not need it when you blap fit it?
Zomgnomnom
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2016-06-10 11:45:02 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Quote:
Naglfar has an additional +60 CPU

No powergrid for the extra gun?



doesn't need it

An extra gun is about 100k PG; there are multiple fit that are already tight (buffer, cap booster, sb). How does the nag not need the pg for the extra gun, just because it does not need it when you blap fit it?



Moros could use a bit too
Peter Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-06-10 11:45:37 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Q&A

Q: How does the missile change work?
A: Missiles 'fly' from the center of your ship to the target. This with especially large ships (such as a Leviathan) this can cause problems. They have a range (flight time * speed) of (for example) 40km. But because the missile has to fly across the radius of the Leviathan (8km in this example) their effective range is only 32km.
Missiles now get a small bonus to their flight time based on the radius of the ship launching them. So in the above example they will hit targets 40km away.


Have you compensated for the behaviour of subsecond missile flight times. For those who aren't aware, missiles will only every fly for a whole number of seconds, and the fractional part of the flight time is converted to a probability to fly for an extra second. So for example a missile with a flight time of 4.3 seconds has a 70% chance of flying for 4 seconds and a 30% chance of flying for 5 seconds.

Suppose our Leviathan is firing Torpedoes with a flight time of 9 and a velocity of 2.25, so they have a 100% chance of flying 20.25km. By your formula you would increase the flight time by 3.55 seconds to give an extra 8km of range. So we now have a flight time of 12.55 seconds and a velocity of 2.25, this means that our torps have 55% chance of flying 27km and a 45% chance of 29.25km. So (assuming you want to do full damage) you haven't actually gained the range you expected!
gr Deamon
GR GR GR
Ufte Bufte
#26 - 2016-06-10 11:47:44 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Quote:
Naglfar has an additional +60 CPU

No powergrid for the extra gun?



doesn't need it



It very much needs it.
Capqu
Half Empty
#27 - 2016-06-10 11:47:44 UTC

  • Missiles now have the correct range when fired from large ships.

  • AttentionArrowBearSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileCool
    Lugh Crow-Slave
    #28 - 2016-06-10 11:52:27 UTC
    CCP Larrikin wrote:


    There are more changes planned. We will be looking at HAW Tracking (more info here) and Light Fighter application / alpha.

    As always, we welcome your feedback!


    Just please don't make them useless the only thing they can do right now is gank small fleets and camp gates take that away and we have 4 new drakes.

    I don't think just changing the application will fix the carrier issue a total rework is needed if they ate going to be relevant in fleets and not op camping gates
    Anthar Thebess
    #29 - 2016-06-10 11:59:33 UTC
    When you do more bad things to carriers remember.
    People live in nullsec as this is true sandbox that don't have most bad mechanic found in lowsec and higsec.

    If carriers are bad because people abuse them in lowsec to kill newbies - put restriction to lowsec usage of modules or abilities.
    Don't ruin nullsec fun.
    CyberRaver
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #30 - 2016-06-10 12:02:13 UTC
    Agrakari Saraki wrote:
    The original 900% NSA scanres boost made it a nightmare to keep carriers tackled with dictors, as they just instalock you and alpha the dictor off the field. If the intention was to prevent this, I don't think that the nerf to 500% meaningfully improves this situation. The carriers can still lock dictors in 3 seconds, which isn't enough time to burn out of your bubble and escape. Add to that the immense buff to cruiser application, and even HICs have a hard time keeping a carrier tackled before help arrives.

    I think that this situation is negatively impacting content generation by allowing carriers to clear their tackle without assistance, leading to less fleet fights and content generated over tackled carriers.



    Carriers have less ehp and are the anti subcap platform

    Kindly eat a **** with your small gang bullshit

    You want to kill capitals come properly prepared with ecm or your own caps



    Empress Honeybadger
    Democratic Space Socialism
    #31 - 2016-06-10 12:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Empress Honeybadger
    Looks like nullbears get what they want.

    Prior to capital patch it was possible to take down a carrier with 3 blopses. Now they alpha the blops battleships with abilities. The only way to survive was to jam the figthers. Now CCP takes away this capability. 3 blopses is 3-4 times more ISK on field than a carrier, fielded in hostile nullsec with a lot of risk (baits etc). Why do you make it impossible to kill a carrier with 3 blopses?

    Now that you have given them ECCM strength, can you at least make it so that fighters stop dpsing when they are jammed? I know ECM was broken in the favor of the jammer since the shift from drones to fighters but the fix you are proposing makes it broken in the favor of the carrier this time.



    More broadly, can CCP actually start hearing the voice of non-consensual pvp people? Most of the changes are either favor pve people or fleet warfare. Meanwhile it takes for us years to fix broken stuff such as blops fatigue. I know carebears are a majority and we are a minority. I know we get downvoted to death whenever we speak our voice. But if you make this game so that ratting in 0.0 is even more secure the Eve ecosystem will begin to lose its meaning. Ratters are supposed to take risks in 0.0. But they should also be rewarded well for it. Right now both the risk and reward in ratting in 0.0 is not at a sufficient level.
    CyberRaver
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #32 - 2016-06-10 12:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CyberRaver
    Empress Honeybadger wrote:
    Looks like nullbears get what they want.

    Prior to capital patch it was possible to take down a carrier with 3 blopses. Now they alpha the blops battleships with abilities. The only way to survive was to jam the figthers. Now CCP takes away this capability. 3 blopses is 3-4 times more ISK on field than a carrier, fielded in hostile nullsec with a lot of risk (baits etc). Why do you make it impossible to kill a carrier with 3 blopses?

    Now that you have given them ECCM strength, can you at least make it so that fighters stop dpsing when they are jammed? I know ECM was broken in the favor of the jammer since the shift from drones to fighters but the fix you are proposing makes it broken in the favor of the carrier this time.



    More broadly, can CCP actually start hearing the voice of non-consensual pvp people? Most of the changes are either favor pve people or fleet warfare. Meanwhile it takes for us years to fix broken stuff such as blops fatigue. I know carebears are a majority and we are a minority. I know we get downvoted to death whenever we speak our voice. But if you make this game so that ratting in 0.0 is even more secure the Eve ecosystem will begin to lose its meaning. Ratters are supposed to take risks in 0.0. But they should also be rewarded well for it. Right now both the risk and reward in ratting in 0.0 is not at a sufficient level.



    3 blops t2 fit are worth about a bil each

    a single t2 fit carrier with t2 fighters is 3 billion

    3 frigates cant kill a properly fit dronebattleship why should you be any different?


    If you bling thats your issue
    Guillejejeje XDD
    it would have lived if it were a shield super
    #33 - 2016-06-10 12:07:04 UTC
    When is the ecm rework? i dont like being permajamed for 10 minutes...
    i have pics of the crime

    Ecm 1

    Ecm 2

    Ecm 3

    Ecm needs a rework.
    Rek Seven
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #34 - 2016-06-10 12:08:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
    CCP Larrikin wrote:

    Dreadnoughts
    • Siege Mode now gives ECM Immunity



    Thanks for addressing this so quickly, Larrikin.
    Empress Honeybadger
    Democratic Space Socialism
    #35 - 2016-06-10 12:09:08 UTC
    CyberRaver wrote:
    Agrakari Saraki wrote:
    The original 900% NSA scanres boost made it a nightmare to keep carriers tackled with dictors, as they just instalock you and alpha the dictor off the field. If the intention was to prevent this, I don't think that the nerf to 500% meaningfully improves this situation. The carriers can still lock dictors in 3 seconds, which isn't enough time to burn out of your bubble and escape. Add to that the immense buff to cruiser application, and even HICs have a hard time keeping a carrier tackled before help arrives.

    I think that this situation is negatively impacting content generation by allowing carriers to clear their tackle without assistance, leading to less fleet fights and content generated over tackled carriers.



    Carriers have less ehp and are the anti subcap platform

    Kindly eat a **** with your small gang bullshit

    You want to kill capitals come properly prepared with ecm or your own caps






    Carriers atm are a pve ratting platform for most of all.

    Why as a small fleet I field 4-5 times more ISK and men for a single carrier yet am unable to take it down? Because nullbears like you gotta nullbear for every single proposal against them and you are in majority. And they just made it so that its impossible to jam the figther. So all I can do according to you is bring my capitals in your staging system. OK.
    CyberRaver
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #36 - 2016-06-10 12:13:35 UTC
    Empress Honeybadger wrote:
    CyberRaver wrote:
    Agrakari Saraki wrote:
    The original 900% NSA scanres boost made it a nightmare to keep carriers tackled with dictors, as they just instalock you and alpha the dictor off the field. If the intention was to prevent this, I don't think that the nerf to 500% meaningfully improves this situation. The carriers can still lock dictors in 3 seconds, which isn't enough time to burn out of your bubble and escape. Add to that the immense buff to cruiser application, and even HICs have a hard time keeping a carrier tackled before help arrives.

    I think that this situation is negatively impacting content generation by allowing carriers to clear their tackle without assistance, leading to less fleet fights and content generated over tackled carriers.



    Carriers have less ehp and are the anti subcap platform

    Kindly eat a **** with your small gang bullshit

    You want to kill capitals come properly prepared with ecm or your own caps






    Carriers atm are a pve ratting platform for most of all.

    Why as a small fleet I field 4-5 times more ISK and men for a single carrier yet am unable to take it down? Because nullbears like you gotta nullbear for every single proposal against them and you are in majority. And they just made it so that its impossible to jam the figther. So all I can do according to you is bring my capitals in your staging system. OK.




    Keep your risk averse ass out of sov null then


    3 patrol boats dont hold down a aircraft carrier, even if you gold plate the engines to make them cost more

    Small gangs should be fighting small gangs, 3 frigates die to a ishtar so 3 lightly tanked stealth ships should die to a carrier many times bigger

    You arent meant to butt heads with blops but be rather tactical and kill smaller things





    Empress Honeybadger
    Democratic Space Socialism
    #37 - 2016-06-10 12:14:31 UTC
    CyberRaver wrote:
    Empress Honeybadger wrote:
    Looks like nullbears get what they want.

    Prior to capital patch it was possible to take down a carrier with 3 blopses. Now they alpha the blops battleships with abilities. The only way to survive was to jam the figthers. Now CCP takes away this capability. 3 blopses is 3-4 times more ISK on field than a carrier, fielded in hostile nullsec with a lot of risk (baits etc). Why do you make it impossible to kill a carrier with 3 blopses?

    Now that you have given them ECCM strength, can you at least make it so that fighters stop dpsing when they are jammed? I know ECM was broken in the favor of the jammer since the shift from drones to fighters but the fix you are proposing makes it broken in the favor of the carrier this time.



    More broadly, can CCP actually start hearing the voice of non-consensual pvp people? Most of the changes are either favor pve people or fleet warfare. Meanwhile it takes for us years to fix broken stuff such as blops fatigue. I know carebears are a majority and we are a minority. I know we get downvoted to death whenever we speak our voice. But if you make this game so that ratting in 0.0 is even more secure the Eve ecosystem will begin to lose its meaning. Ratters are supposed to take risks in 0.0. But they should also be rewarded well for it. Right now both the risk and reward in ratting in 0.0 is not at a sufficient level.



    3 blops t2 fit are worth about a bil each

    a single t2 fit carrier with t2 fighters is 3 billion

    3 frigates cant kill a properly fit dronebattleship why should you be any different?


    If you bling thats your issue


    Frigates are 4 levels smaller than a BS. A blops is only 1 level smaller. By comparison 3 t2 cruisers can take down a battleship easily. So your example is ******** at its best.

    If I don't bling I can't kill anything in a blops. So thanks for pointing another problem out. Right now I have to bling my 3 blopses and then still die on a carrier. It should be like 3 t2 blopses should easily take a carrier down. Now we can't even do this with 4 billion blopses.

    Also you intentionally ignore insurance. Insurance taken into account 3 t2 blopses are still way expensive.
    Empress Honeybadger
    Democratic Space Socialism
    #38 - 2016-06-10 12:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Empress Honeybadger
    CyberRaver wrote:
    Empress Honeybadger wrote:
    CyberRaver wrote:
    Agrakari Saraki wrote:
    The original 900% NSA scanres boost made it a nightmare to keep carriers tackled with dictors, as they just instalock you and alpha the dictor off the field. If the intention was to prevent this, I don't think that the nerf to 500% meaningfully improves this situation. The carriers can still lock dictors in 3 seconds, which isn't enough time to burn out of your bubble and escape. Add to that the immense buff to cruiser application, and even HICs have a hard time keeping a carrier tackled before help arrives.

    I think that this situation is negatively impacting content generation by allowing carriers to clear their tackle without assistance, leading to less fleet fights and content generated over tackled carriers.



    Carriers have less ehp and are the anti subcap platform

    Kindly eat a **** with your small gang bullshit

    You want to kill capitals come properly prepared with ecm or your own caps






    Carriers atm are a pve ratting platform for most of all.

    Why as a small fleet I field 4-5 times more ISK and men for a single carrier yet am unable to take it down? Because nullbears like you gotta nullbear for every single proposal against them and you are in majority. And they just made it so that its impossible to jam the figther. So all I can do according to you is bring my capitals in your staging system. OK.




    Keep your risk averse ass out of sov null then


    3 patrol boats dont hold down a aircraft carrier, even if you gold plate the engines to make them cost more

    Small gangs should be fighting small gangs, 3 frigates die to a ishtar so 3 lightly tanked stealth ships should die to a carrier many times bigger

    You arent meant to butt heads with blops but be rather tactical and kill smaller things







    3 ishtars kill a megathron. Can you stfu with your ******** comparison? We are talking about t2 battleship vs t1 carrier. Compare 3 svipuls vs 1 cerberus if you wanna keep making sense. 3 HACs vs 1 t1 battleship. Or 3 assault frigate vs 1 cormorant.

    You speak almost like you pay 20 bil for a thanatos lol

    And nullbear blames hotdropper for being risk averse lol. What kind of idiot are you?
    CyberRaver
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #39 - 2016-06-10 12:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: CyberRaver
    Empress Honeybadger wrote:
    CyberRaver wrote:
    Empress Honeybadger wrote:
    CyberRaver wrote:
    Agrakari Saraki wrote:
    The original 900% NSA scanres boost made it a nightmare to keep carriers tackled with dictors, as they just instalock you and alpha the dictor off the field. If the intention was to prevent this, I don't think that the nerf to 500% meaningfully improves this situation. The carriers can still lock dictors in 3 seconds, which isn't enough time to burn out of your bubble and escape. Add to that the immense buff to cruiser application, and even HICs have a hard time keeping a carrier tackled before help arrives.

    I think that this situation is negatively impacting content generation by allowing carriers to clear their tackle without assistance, leading to less fleet fights and content generated over tackled carriers.



    Carriers have less ehp and are the anti subcap platform

    Kindly eat a **** with your small gang bullshit

    You want to kill capitals come properly prepared with ecm or your own caps






    Carriers atm are a pve ratting platform for most of all.

    Why as a small fleet I field 4-5 times more ISK and men for a single carrier yet am unable to take it down? Because nullbears like you gotta nullbear for every single proposal against them and you are in majority. And they just made it so that its impossible to jam the figther. So all I can do according to you is bring my capitals in your staging system. OK.




    Keep your risk averse ass out of sov null then


    3 patrol boats dont hold down a aircraft carrier, even if you gold plate the engines to make them cost more

    Small gangs should be fighting small gangs, 3 frigates die to a ishtar so 3 lightly tanked stealth ships should die to a carrier many times bigger

    You arent meant to butt heads with blops but be rather tactical and kill smaller things







    3 ishtars kill a megathron. Can you stfu with your ******** comparison? We are talking about t2 battleship vs t1 carrier. Compare 3 svipuls vs 1 cerberus if you wanna keep making sense. 3 HACs vs 1 t1 battleship. Or 3 assault frigate vs 1 cormorant.

    You speak almost like you pay 20 bil for a thanatos lol

    And nullbear says hotdropped is risk averse lol. What kind of idiot are you?



    Considering the hull and armour jump its a viable comparison, also the role is different for each one, a BLOPS is not meant to be a forward ship of the line, a HAC is
    Your problem for using the ship for a purpose beyond its design

    You are just mad they arent a free kill any more

    Wormholers deal with ratters fine, they establish tackle and bring the right ships to the fight
    YOU are bringing the wrong ship to the fight, and whining about it

    Seriously get ******, small gangs should be fighting small gangs, not ******* with sov null caps unless they are properly setup


    Pick your targets better or git gud scrub
    Aebe Amraen
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #40 - 2016-06-10 12:18:53 UTC
    Can we talk about the fact that XL Arty has the same PG requirements as XL Beam lasers, while the Revelation has 70% more PG available than the Nag? This worked when the Nag only needed to fit two turrets, but it's unreasonable when we have to fit 3.

    The nag either needs more PG or XL arty needs lower PG requirements.