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[118.6] Capital Balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Wizzard Ozz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2016-06-10 13:00:34 UTC
Eldritch Phoenix wrote:
Aebe Amraen wrote:
I did some calculations on the Nag vs. other dreads PG: http://i.imgur.com/9CTFMmE.png

All skills are at 5. The listed PG for each weapon configuration is the PG required to fit ONLY the three guns/launchers and a siege module, all T2.

As you can see, Nags can't even fit XL Arty without requiring fittings mods. Want to fit any other capital mods on there in addition to the guns and siege? I hope you don't mind filling all your lows up with RCUs!


Holy ****, how is this even remotely being considered?

Not sure how no one thought that adding 15.6% & 25.4% more module PG requirements for short and long range respectively doesn't affect anything relating to powergrid needing a buff too.

Can we rotate the Nag model forward 135 deg and scale it down?
Bagdh Dearg
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2016-06-10 13:01:16 UTC
Any chance the Nag can get some of it's PG back? I mean it lost 144,000 when the Launchers were removed:

Original Odyssey changes
Empress Honeybadger
Democratic Space Socialism
#63 - 2016-06-10 13:01:39 UTC
CyberRaver wrote:
Empress Honeybadger wrote:
CyberRaver wrote:
You are meant to jam the fighters **** nugget

The carrier isnt the one you should be jamming

but sure cry more, my salt powered carrier is loving the fuel



So when you drop on a carrier, if the carrier attacks someone with fighters, and you jam the fighters, they still keep dpsing the primary target. All they can't do is to switch target. The jam only jams 1 fighters in the whole squad. Which is like 1/9 reduced dps or something. The initial target always dies. And you know what carrier pilots do after? They call the fighters in, put them out again, and by the time you land the jams on them they can be sent after another target. And then the target dies no matter you jam the fighters.

So no, jams even at this point do not work against carriers.

You are really an arrogant ***** as all your kind in big null corps. No knowledge. Full of opinions.



And you are a risk averse entitled manbaby

Turn left are dealing with carrier in proper gangs, and jamming fighters fine, how is it you seem to be the one struggling?



Because you never drop on solo carriers with a small fleet and I drop on them everyday.
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#64 - 2016-06-10 13:05:27 UTC
LOL Thank you CCP: As it stands right now I have won a bet with an old corp mate on the Nag. I bet him that the fitting requirements would not be changed enough to compensate for the added gun. Based on the current numbers (+60 CPU lol) I win that bet.

Now it remains to be seen what you will do about the damage bonus. I said it would be changed to compensate (something like +33%) and keep the DPS the same, but that does not look like it will happen.

Who knows, we may wash on this bet.

As for the rest of the changes, I do not get why we are already nerfing shield extenders. The only thing I can think of is you guys are getting ready to unveil those implants that increase raw shield HP (snakes but for shields). In that case, shouldn't we wait?
CyberRaver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2016-06-10 13:05:58 UTC
Empress Honeybadger wrote:
CyberRaver wrote:
Empress Honeybadger wrote:
CyberRaver wrote:
You are meant to jam the fighters **** nugget

The carrier isnt the one you should be jamming

but sure cry more, my salt powered carrier is loving the fuel



So when you drop on a carrier, if the carrier attacks someone with fighters, and you jam the fighters, they still keep dpsing the primary target. All they can't do is to switch target. The jam only jams 1 fighters in the whole squad. Which is like 1/9 reduced dps or something. The initial target always dies. And you know what carrier pilots do after? They call the fighters in, put them out again, and by the time you land the jams on them they can be sent after another target. And then the target dies no matter you jam the fighters.

So no, jams even at this point do not work against carriers.

You are really an arrogant ***** as all your kind in big null corps. No knowledge. Full of opinions.



And you are a risk averse entitled manbaby

Turn left are dealing with carrier in proper gangs, and jamming fighters fine, how is it you seem to be the one struggling?



Because you never drop on solo carriers with a small fleet and I drop on them everyday.



Perhaps you need to change how you play?

Carriers wwere a free lunch before patch, they arent now, thats basicly it
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#66 - 2016-06-10 13:08:38 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
LOL Thank you CCP: As it stands right now I have won a bet with an old corp mate on the Nag. I bet him that the fitting requirements would not be changed enough to compensate for the added gun. Based on the current numbers (+60 CPU lol) I win that bet.

Now it remains to be seen what you will do about the damage bonus. I said it would be changed to compensate (something like +33%) and keep the DPS the same, but that does not look like it will happen.

Who knows, we may wash on this bet.

As for the rest of the changes, I do not get why we are already nerfing shield extenders. The only thing I can think of is you guys are getting ready to unveil those implants that increase raw shield HP (snakes but for shields). In that case, shouldn't we wait?


It looks like CCP has the new armor repair amount implants on SISI now, so I would expect new shield implants to be coming.
Empress Honeybadger
Democratic Space Socialism
#67 - 2016-06-10 13:09:14 UTC
CyberRaver wrote:
Empress Honeybadger wrote:
CyberRaver wrote:
Empress Honeybadger wrote:
CyberRaver wrote:
You are meant to jam the fighters **** nugget

The carrier isnt the one you should be jamming

but sure cry more, my salt powered carrier is loving the fuel



So when you drop on a carrier, if the carrier attacks someone with fighters, and you jam the fighters, they still keep dpsing the primary target. All they can't do is to switch target. The jam only jams 1 fighters in the whole squad. Which is like 1/9 reduced dps or something. The initial target always dies. And you know what carrier pilots do after? They call the fighters in, put them out again, and by the time you land the jams on them they can be sent after another target. And then the target dies no matter you jam the fighters.

So no, jams even at this point do not work against carriers.

You are really an arrogant ***** as all your kind in big null corps. No knowledge. Full of opinions.



And you are a risk averse entitled manbaby

Turn left are dealing with carrier in proper gangs, and jamming fighters fine, how is it you seem to be the one struggling?



Because you never drop on solo carriers with a small fleet and I drop on them everyday.



Perhaps you need to change how you play?

Carriers wwere a free lunch before patch, they arent now, thats basicly it


Who are you to tell me to change how I play?

I land more ISK and people on grid. I take more risk coming in your system. There are so many measures you can take to not to get caught to me. And still yet there is no way I can kill you. Thats unfair. Perhaps you should change how you nullbear.
Zari Tenjin
Epicentre Syndicate
The Singularity.
#68 - 2016-06-10 13:09:54 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi M8s,

With the 118.6 release, we're making some tweaks to a bunch of capital gameplay. We would love your feedback!

Carriers & Fighters
  • Long Range Heavy Fighters (Ametat, Termite, Antaeus, Gungnir) bomb ability now correctly scales with squadron size.
  • Warp Scramblers now stop Fighter MWDs and MJDs mid-cycle.
  • Networked Sensor Array bonus to Scan Resolution now has a stacking penalty with sensor boosters.
  • Networked Sensor Array bonus to Scan Resolution reduced to 500% (from 900%)
  • Networked Sensor Array no longer gives a bonus to number of locked targets.
  • Networked Sensor Array sensor strength bonuses now also apply to the Carrier's fighter squadrons.
  • Fighters now have orbit ranges more appropriate to their weapons system (you can see this in Show Info)

Force Auxiliaries
  • Triage Mode now gives ECM Immunity

Dreadnoughts
  • Siege Mode now gives ECM Immunity
  • Naglfar now has 3 turret hard-points (and an extra high slot) and has lost its role bonus of +50% damage.
  • Naglfar has an additional +60 CPU

Miscellaneous
  • Void Bombs now respect Energy Warfare Resistance
  • Void Bombs and Lockbreaker Bombs now give more verbose messages about their effects in the combat log.
  • Missiles now have the correct range when fired from large ships.
  • All Capital Shield Extenders now provide 10% less shield HP.
  • Bastion Module now gives ECM Immunity

There are more changes planned. We will be looking at HAW Tracking (more info here) and Light Fighter application / alpha.

As always, we welcome your feedback!



So there will absolutely no way to counter caps without fielding your own? FAX cap is ridiculous enough that neutlegions are not a thing anymore in low class vs. C5/C6WH warfare. Now the last possibility of maybe hoping for a jam is also gone.

Congrats to HK and friends field a single FAX and you've won. Enjoy fighting among yourselves, looks like we're out of the game.

To CCP: Nice 180 from 'we want more Caps to die' to making them immune untouchable by subcaps again
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2016-06-10 13:11:20 UTC
Empress Honeybadger wrote:


Because you never drop on solo carriers with a small fleet and I drop on them everyday.


That doesn't necessarily make you right.

The fact is, cost isn't a balancing because there are just too many variables involved. Some people fly with more expensive modules than others. I can build a 100 million ISK stealth bomber with little trouble. And it will die horribly to the first 30 million ISK RLML Caracal it decides to (unwisely) attack.

You have to adapt your tactics to the changing game environment. It's called evolution - those who will not, or cannot, will lose the race for supremacy.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Anthar Thebess
#70 - 2016-06-10 13:11:24 UTC
Tried to fit arty Naglfar that have some tank - need more power grid, cpu increase is also to small.
T2 arty gun require 77 CPU, and my 2 gun naglfar already required a co processor.
CyberRaver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#71 - 2016-06-10 13:11:32 UTC
I can fit a frigate to be worth more then a carrier, doesnt mean it can kill one

You are behind the meta, and are unwilling to adapt


Sounds like a harden the **** up moment tbh
Lord Asmodeus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2016-06-10 13:16:59 UTC
GIVE FOR GOD SAKE CPU AND POWER GRID IF YOU WANT NAG WITH 1 MORE GUN .
Hogeron Amelan
Marquie-X.
Triumvirate.
#73 - 2016-06-10 13:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hogeron Amelan
Thx CCP,

finally you buff carriers with the Citadel expension and they are getting intersting for pvp and some alliances actualy use them and only after not even 2 months of usage BAM! u nerf them.

So buh-huh!.. who ever thinks thats ballance I say thats bull****. You don't know. CCP is going too much "try-and-error" lately and it gets on the players nerves! So many good ideas to improve the game were realized so louzy. It's like you are trying to change the traffic from right to left side ... step by step... at first, only for buses...

For a carrier you have to skill several months, or maybe even years and put in a considerable amount of different skills and ISK only to fly them, not even talking of mastering them. Remember how much only the "Capital Ships" and "xxx Carrier" Skillbooks cost additional to all the fitting stuff and the hull??
And then you complain that a newbro with 2 mill SP and a sabre is unable to tackle and initiate the destruction of that ship? He should nerver be able to! Never! 20 of them maybe, yes BUT NOT 1!! Whats that for balance?
I bet that guy wants also try to sink an aircraft-carrier with an inflatable boat and complain that it is unbalanced when he only gets in sight before he gets blown up...yeah definately needs to be nerfed too ... 'cause that will definatley bring more fun into the game for capital pilots and bigger alliances. /irony off

I don't see that carriers are overpowerd, only that they finaly have a destinct use in the game. The changes are definately to early. Barely anybody in the game can adept to that playsitye or find methods to deal with that and you are changing it again. That is bad. How do you expect to find out if something works if you don't even give the time to study the matter For a big change like the citadel expension was, that one is too soon and not right.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#74 - 2016-06-10 13:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Grookshank wrote:
Quote:
Naglfar has an additional +60 CPU

No powergrid for the extra gun?


When the launchers were removed from the Nag, a ton of PG was removed. Now you add in a turret that requires a ton of PG, and give it no PG buff. Buff Nag PG plz.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

big miker
Syndicate Enterprise
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#75 - 2016-06-10 13:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: big miker
Like others pointed out, give the Naglfar additional power grid. You are forcing 1x powergrid rig or RCU on pretty much all Naglfar fits now.

Edit: THANK GOD FOR THE ECM IMMUNITY!
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2016-06-10 13:20:24 UTC
Naglfar was trash befor Odyssey
Naglfar was the best dread after Odyssey.
Naglfar was bad but still playable after Citadel.
Naglfar will be trash after June.

And so the cycle comes to an end and begins again.
NaK'Lin
7-2 Ronin
#77 - 2016-06-10 13:21:36 UTC  |  Edited by: NaK'Lin
Empress Honeybadger wrote:
CyberRaver wrote:
You are meant to jam the fighters **** nugget

The carrier isnt the one you should be jamming

but sure cry more, my salt powered carrier is loving the fuel



So when you drop on a carrier, if the carrier attacks someone with fighters, and you jam the fighters, they still keep dpsing the primary target. All they can't do is to switch target. The jam only jams 1 fighters in the whole squad. Which is like 1/9 reduced dps or something. The initial target always dies. And you know what carrier pilots do after? They call the fighters in, put them out again, and by the time you land the jams on them they can be sent after another target. And then the target dies no matter you jam the fighters.

So no, jams even at this point do not work against carriers.

You are really an arrogant ***** as all your kind in big null corps. No knowledge. Full of opinions.

lots of blablabla

FEIGN deals with Carriers fairly well. Turn left does as well.
ECMing the fighters IS the way to go, btw. You also have other ways to deal with them, but ECM is the most straight forward type.
We kill carriers, also with Blops. We don't bring 3 though.
You're not supposed to engage everything with a blops, so target selection depending on your size, please.
Also, your BLOPS BS will NOT get one volley'd by the fighter squads. Where's the problem again to kill the carrier?

The Naglfar needs it's fitting checked. CCP must have overlooked it.

The long range bombers special ability is still impossible to aim with. There's no cues for distance and no cues for timing. Manual piloting bombers / fighters in space is something we already do fairly well, but in this case it's hard to even hit a stationary target properly. The radius is also incredibly small. Maybe we could give input on the balancing if CCP would set forth the actual intended targets for this attack type so we can bring solutions.
Generally, tactical overview in detached mode could change the range indicators centered to whatever you have selected actively at the very moment. would give range cues, which are really important.

FAX doesn't need ECM immunity. like not at all. they are already Godlike to subcaps and an almost guaranteed escalation button requiring an insane amount of numbers or other capitals. ECM immunity makes it worse. Also, Entosis FAX is a thing. this is just making sillier.

ECM on Marauders, yes, on Dreads, maybe.


Carriers don't instablap any interceptor that i know of.
They will instablap many T1 frigates. Result, good. Proper T2 tackle ships will do their job. We are also fairly successful at the use of sabres against carriers and no, they don't get all volleyed off the field. in fact, the only sabres lost, will die to to error or absolute hero tackle.
People need to learn to adapt and accept that these are NEW ships and stop comparing to what was before.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#78 - 2016-06-10 13:23:05 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Tried to fit arty Naglfar that have some tank - need more power grid, cpu increase is also to small.
T2 arty gun require 77 CPU, and my 2 gun naglfar already required a co processor.


Use the CONCORD ones instead, they can use t2 ammo too.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Aebe Amraen
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#79 - 2016-06-10 13:23:06 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Now it remains to be seen what you will do about the damage bonus. I said it would be changed to compensate (something like +33%) and keep the DPS the same, but that does not look like it will happen.


3 guns with no damage bonus does exactly the same DPS as the old 2 guns with 50% damage bonus.

Please either learn to do basic arithmetic or post on an out-of-alliance alt, you're embarrassing us.
CyberRaver
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2016-06-10 13:30:07 UTC
https://zkillboard.com/kill/53696372/


5 carriers and a aeon dropped on our small gang

We killed 2 carrier before the others decided Nope


The aeon was 50% armour before we called in the bombers


Bring a proper setup small gang