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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

First post First post
Author
Koebmand
Silverflames
#921 - 2015-08-22 00:49:09 UTC
Enthosis Link making it impossible to logi the ship seems counter productive, why remove the benefit for the attacker that bringing more ships gives? Chasing an interceptor around for 4 hours isn't as fun as blowing up a small fleet.

If the problem is server load and not about fun, making everyone quit the game sure will fix it.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#922 - 2015-08-22 01:41:47 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Let's assume you get to the node event, it is a race to capture them. Provi will take a node in 4 minutes, attackers will take 24 minutes. You're in a race with people tagging objectives SIX times faster than you.



Speaking hypothetically regarding a node event and an attacking force consisting of 300 troll ceptors (as I stated a few comments back):

That gang just Entosis'd every system in a region, and let's say they had a ~50% success rate. Now the nodes pop up - the defenders can only focus on so many nodes at one time. The attackers send one troll ceptor to each node for each system. Can you see where I am going with this? I do not feel like having to type out every cause/effect that would result.


Because it is too hard to respond with a single Kitsune per system. Now it doesn't matter if they have 300 trollceptors. You just have to break more locks per entosis cycle than they have trollceptors. One Kitsune can easily serve ECM dish to 10+ trollceptors without trying.

Takes gewns to keep crying about it though, because getting one Kitsune per system is apparently too much to ask from a 40k accounts coalition.

CCP stay strong and roll back the 4k limit. Trollceptors are only a problem for people who bit more than they can chew, don't enable them. Any system occupied with a non-bot capable of undocking... hell, even Procurer can deal with Trollceptor, so basically anything goes - is immune to trollceptor.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#923 - 2015-08-22 02:35:24 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Because it is too hard to respond with a single Kitsune per system.


Superb solution to some problem, I'm sure, but not the one discussed in this thread.

Feel free to take it to a thread it belongs to though.
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#924 - 2015-08-22 04:20:11 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Let's assume you get to the node event, it is a race to capture them. Provi will take a node in 4 minutes, attackers will take 24 minutes. You're in a race with people tagging objectives SIX times faster than you.



Speaking hypothetically regarding a node event and an attacking force consisting of 300 troll ceptors (as I stated a few comments back):

That gang just Entosis'd every system in a region, and let's say they had a ~50% success rate. Now the nodes pop up - the defenders can only focus on so many nodes at one time. The attackers send one troll ceptor to each node for each system. Can you see where I am going with this? I do not feel like having to type out every cause/effect that would result.


Because it is too hard to respond with a single Kitsune per system. Now it doesn't matter if they have 300 trollceptors. You just have to break more locks per entosis cycle than they have trollceptors. One Kitsune can easily serve ECM dish to 10+ trollceptors without trying.

Takes gewns to keep crying about it though, because getting one Kitsune per system is apparently too much to ask from a 40k accounts coalition.

CCP stay strong and roll back the 4k limit. Trollceptors are only a problem for people who bit more than they can chew, don't enable them. Any system occupied with a non-bot capable of undocking... hell, even Procurer can deal with Trollceptor, so basically anything goes - is immune to trollceptor.


Ok so you somehow manage to get an 'x' amount of players to fit out and fly Kitsunes, great first leap. So you manage to get said Kitsunes to attacked system, great second step. Now you jam out one interceptor... what happens next? You break the lock and move to the next one? Once you move to the next one the previous interceptor has started his Entosis back up. How long is this going to last, ping ponging back and forth between attackers? Answer: Not long before a couple decide to gang up and remove you from the equation. Also, there are some mid slots on those interceptors that probably wouldn't be bad for fitting ECCM.

Back to the drawing board, sir.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#925 - 2015-08-22 05:22:48 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Let's assume you get to the node event, it is a race to capture them. Provi will take a node in 4 minutes, attackers will take 24 minutes. You're in a race with people tagging objectives SIX times faster than you.



Speaking hypothetically regarding a node event and an attacking force consisting of 300 troll ceptors (as I stated a few comments back):

That gang just Entosis'd every system in a region, and let's say they had a ~50% success rate. Now the nodes pop up - the defenders can only focus on so many nodes at one time. The attackers send one troll ceptor to each node for each system. Can you see where I am going with this? I do not feel like having to type out every cause/effect that would result.


Because it is too hard to respond with a single Kitsune per system. Now it doesn't matter if they have 300 trollceptors. You just have to break more locks per entosis cycle than they have trollceptors. One Kitsune can easily serve ECM dish to 10+ trollceptors without trying.

Takes gewns to keep crying about it though, because getting one Kitsune per system is apparently too much to ask from a 40k accounts coalition.

CCP stay strong and roll back the 4k limit. Trollceptors are only a problem for people who bit more than they can chew, don't enable them. Any system occupied with a non-bot capable of undocking... hell, even Procurer can deal with Trollceptor, so basically anything goes - is immune to trollceptor.


Ok so you somehow manage to get an 'x' amount of players to fit out and fly Kitsunes, great first leap. So you manage to get said Kitsunes to attacked system, great second step. Now you jam out one interceptor... what happens next? You break the lock and move to the next one? Once you move to the next one the previous interceptor has started his Entosis back up. How long is this going to last, ping ponging back and forth between attackers? Answer: Not long before a couple decide to gang up and remove you from the equation. Also, there are some mid slots on those interceptors that probably wouldn't be bad for fitting ECCM.

Back to the drawing board, sir.


Not before I fill your knowledge gaps.

First of all, no restart until cycle completes. After that, warmup cycle. Care to calculate the time it takes for them to go back to making entosis progress, or should help out as well?

If those systems are occupied (at least people living in the same constellation), 'x' amount of players are already there. Give them Kitsunes ffs, they aren't marauders.

How long this is going to last? Until your vulnerability window ends, until trollceptors get tired of you coming and breaking their lock every 5 minutes (effectively stopping any entosis progress) per ceptor, but normally it'll be over once you bring your own entosis and deal with that node. But even without that, as long as they cannot make entosis progress, you are immune.

And the biggest surprise of the whole scheme - if they come to gank you, TACKLE THEM and blow them with a battle badger. Them coming for you is exactly what you want. You don't need a rainbow fit for that Kitsune since you sit in the damn system and know what you're dealing with, and surely there's a refit available somewhere in the constellation (if not, drop the damn sov, you don't deserve to own a constellation you can't even refit in).

ECCM might pose a problem, but not a fatal one - 80 points is their best defense and you would usually mount 2x12 racial jammers, giving you 50% chance to jam a full mid rack of ECCM (-1 slot for mwd counted in) in 3 cycles. But in case they have a full rack (with mwd naturally) they have no means to tackle you, and if there's a specialized tackler, you run a better chance jamming and tackling him while you wait for that battle badger to drop by.
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#926 - 2015-08-22 07:09:47 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
I am super smart at spaceships


Because everyone has caldari frigate lvl 5 + electronic attack frigate + ewar skills right?






No.
Kystraz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#927 - 2015-08-22 07:15:49 UTC
Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#928 - 2015-08-22 07:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
I am super smart at spaceships


Because everyone has caldari frigate lvl 5 + electronic attack frigate + ewar skills right?
No.

A Griffin is more than sufficient and ECM Skills are quickly trained. Besides, these days the focus of many newbie friendly groups lies within making them fly Ewar ships. such as Griffins. Just looking at BRAVE, their numbers must go in the thousands overall by now.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#929 - 2015-08-22 07:53:20 UTC
Kystraz wrote:
Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved


Turns out Orca Platypus thinks playing whackamole with ECM frigates is going to be fun.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#930 - 2015-08-22 08:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
As if fighting hundreds of people under Tidi in one system was much more fun. How were the general reaction during and after every big fight? #soulcrushingtidi, wasn't it?

Besides, if you really despise ceptors so much, bring proper fleets in the first place and resist the temptation of easy gameplay just because it is possible. Your lot constantly preaches to haulers and miners in High sec that they should put more effort into their tasks, yet you refuse to put more effort into your tasks just because easier ways are available. Set an example. Show how much more fun it can be with fleets. This won't remove troll ceptors for people who have nothing better to do, but encourages others on the lookout for interesting fights to actually provide the basis for them. But it is the effort that you cannot stand, isn't it? Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#931 - 2015-08-22 08:01:14 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
I am super smart at spaceships


Because everyone has caldari frigate lvl 5 + electronic attack frigate + ewar skills right?
No.

A Griffin is more than sufficient and ECM Skills are quickly trained. Besides, these days the focus of many newbie friendly groups lies within making them fly Ewar ships. such as Griffins. Just looking at BRAVE, their numbers must go in the thousands overall by now.


As support ships, tossing them out as solo warriors against things like crusaders is only going to result in a lot of dead griffons.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#932 - 2015-08-22 08:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As if fighting hundreds of people under Tidi in one system was much more fun. How were the general reaction during and after every big fight? #soulcrushingtidi, wasn't it?



Even a 20 hour slugfest under the worst tidi is better than dealing with uncatchable interceptor swarms with only ECM. Grinding away entire regions of structures for a month is better than chasing stuff you cant catch.

Rivr Luzade wrote:

Besides, if you really despise ceptors so much, bring proper fleets in the first place and resist the temptation of easy gameplay just because it is possible. Your lot constantly preaches to haulers and miners in High sec that they should put more effort into their tasks, yet you refuse to put more effort into your tasks just because easier ways are available. Set an example. Show how much more fun it can be with fleets. This won't remove troll ceptors for people who have nothing better to do, but encourages others on the lookout for interesting fights to actually provide the basis for them. But it is the effort that you cannot stand, isn't it? Roll


Why would anyone choose not to use the best tactic/ship?

That argument was used to defend every game imbalance including tracking titans. It was a ******** argument then and its ******** now.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#933 - 2015-08-22 08:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
People who complain about it all the time. It is not like there are not other ways available, but they are not as convenient. And convenience is all that matters these day. The limited mindset of people like you sickens me.
However, as said, in EVE, it's either the way of the least resistance (until its abuse forces the removal of it) or the extreme exhaustion of any mechanic (until it's nerfed so much that it's not viable anymore and nearly completely removed). This won't change even if Ceptors were removed from the equation. Next will be cruisers that blap ceptors and other tackle of the field and zoom around at 4k, uncatchable and unbeatable. What then? Gate camps? They just burn back to the gate and do it elsewhere.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#934 - 2015-08-22 08:18:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
People who complain about it all the time. It is not like there are not other ways available, but they are not as convenient. And convenience is all that matters these day. The limited mindset of people like you sickens me.
However, as said, in EVE, it's either the way of the least resistance (until its abuse forces the removal of it) or the extreme exhaustion of any mechanic (until it's nerfed so much that it's not viable anymore and nearly completely removed). This won't change even if Ceptors were removed from the equation. Next will be cruisers that blap ceptors and other tackle of the field and zoom around at 4k, uncatchable and unbeatable. What then? Gate camps? They just burn back to the gate and do it elsewhere.


Have you ever put together one of these super fast cruisers?
Kystraz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#935 - 2015-08-22 08:23:28 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As if fighting hundreds of people under Tidi in one system was much more fun. How were the general reaction during and after every big fight? #soulcrushingtidi, wasn't it?


Why are the only two options solo interceptors v. griffins and 2000 people in massive tidi?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#936 - 2015-08-22 08:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
No, because I have not yet been contested in a way that would require it. It was either no contest at all (so ceptors to quickly get the job done were sufficient) or so much opposition that no linking was possible in the first place (as described before).

Besides, I do not complain about the ceptors. I do not see me in need of setting an example.

Kystraz wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As if fighting hundreds of people under Tidi in one system was much more fun. How were the general reaction during and after every big fight? #soulcrushingtidi, wasn't it?


Why are the only two options solo interceptors v. griffins and 2000 people in massive tidi?

They are not. As described by many people on previous pages. You should read them before you comment.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#937 - 2015-08-22 08:29:50 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
No, because I have not yet been contested in a way that would require it. It was either no contest at all (so ceptors to quickly get the job done were sufficient) or so much opposition that no linking was possible in the first place (as described before).

Besides, I do not complain about the ceptors. I do not see me in need of setting an example.

Kystraz wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As if fighting hundreds of people under Tidi in one system was much more fun. How were the general reaction during and after every big fight? #soulcrushingtidi, wasn't it?


Why are the only two options solo interceptors v. griffins and 2000 people in massive tidi?

They are not. As described by many people on previous pages. You should read them before you comment.


So you have no idea of the downsides of slapping a 500mn mwd on a cruiser is then.
Kystraz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#938 - 2015-08-22 08:56:45 UTC
I guess fighting over a star system against 500mn cruisers and interceptors is supposed to be enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved.
Kieron VonDeux
#939 - 2015-08-22 09:09:24 UTC
Kystraz wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As if fighting hundreds of people under Tidi in one system was much more fun. How were the general reaction during and after every big fight? #soulcrushingtidi, wasn't it?


Why are the only two options solo interceptors v. griffins and 2000 people in massive tidi?


Just remember the point is to try and change a game mechanic, not to actually formulate tactics to counter their new threats.

The new mechanic is focused more toward small gang Sov warfare, where they prefer Sov combat based more upon the blob of Capitals and Supercapitals.

The new Sov favors those who actually occupy their systems and it allows these small groups to run circles around them. It appears they would rather try to force a game mechanic change than adapting the way they fight and live in their claimed systems.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#940 - 2015-08-22 09:20:46 UTC
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
Kystraz wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As if fighting hundreds of people under Tidi in one system was much more fun. How were the general reaction during and after every big fight? #soulcrushingtidi, wasn't it?


Why are the only two options solo interceptors v. griffins and 2000 people in massive tidi?


Just remember the point is to try and change a game mechanic, not to actually formulate tactics to counter their new threats.

The new mechanic is focused more toward small gang Sov warfare, where they prefer Sov combat based more upon the blob of Capitals and Supercapitals.

The new Sov favors those who actually occupy their systems and it allows these small groups to run circles around them. It appears they would rather try to force a game mechanic change than adapting the way they fight and live in their claimed systems.



Oh boy where to start with this one.

We are the ones who have been pushing for this kind of sov, we coined the phase "death to supers", our space is the most occupied and utilised in sov null along side provi, we have adapted to the new system far better than anyone else.

We want small gang stuff, its fun pvp and doesn't require large amounts of background logistics so anyone can do it. Chasing around uncatchable interceptors trolling sov is neither small gang pvp friendly or fun.