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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1321 - 2015-09-03 15:10:06 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fact is that over 90% of eve is either neutral to us or hostile. That you cannot organise yourselves or figure out how to use this new Sov to your advantage is not our fault.

You include the wrong numbers in your argument. Not High sec people are who matter, it is people living in Null sec. People who live in High sec, as you very well know and as it has been confirmed by you and Lucas Kell are not interested in risk for one part, and for the other part not in Null sec in the first place. People who live in Null sec already are who can oppose you, and there are certainly not 90% of people able to oppose you. Including people who have no interest in Null sec life or politics in the calculation is a cheap trick.
Please sound up Imperium members vs nullsec players who aren't a part of the Imperium. I think you'd be surprised at how many non-imperium null players there are. In addition, our numbers tend to suffer from enormous amounts of bloat compared to other alliances. Quite honestly, if our enemies weren't led by enormous sperg lords and were remotely organised and strategically minded, we'd be in for a world of hurt. But they aren't.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1322 - 2015-09-03 16:45:22 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Because most people live there because it's ludicrously safe and rewarding, while groups from null ship stuff out of there because industry in null is dead.

About right?


The closest you get to the point is "safe and rewarding."

The backbone of a thriving economy is logistics. The economy will necessarily be centered where the logistics are (relatively) safe and easy.

Jita is what it is because everyone can get to it reliably.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1323 - 2015-09-03 17:04:50 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Because most people live there because it's ludicrously safe and rewarding, while groups from null ship stuff out of there because industry in null is dead.

About right?
The closest you get to the point is "safe and rewarding."

The backbone of a thriving economy is logistics. The economy will necessarily be centered where the logistics are (relatively) safe and easy.

Jita is what it is because everyone can get to it reliably.
True enough, but it wouldn't be what it is if industry in null didn't suck. Logistically, getting to Jita is a hell of a lot harder than producing in null, but rewards for mining in null are low enough that most people don't bother (hell, sometimes when we grind up indices and we don't have a hauler available we just abandon the cans in space because it's so worthless). If industry in null wasn't dead, then there would be a lot less of a reason to go to highsec for everything. I still think they should bump the highsec trading taxes and broker fees up quite a bit too, based on sec status. That would go a long way to promoting sales elsewhere.

Until they do though, highsec trading is where the money is.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1324 - 2015-09-03 17:22:38 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Fact is that over 90% of eve is either neutral to us or hostile. That you cannot organise yourselves or figure out how to use this new Sov to your advantage is not our fault.

You include the wrong numbers in your argument. Not High sec people are who matter, it is people living in Null sec. People who live in High sec, as you very well know and as it has been confirmed by you and Lucas Kell are not interested in risk for one part, and for the other part not in Null sec in the first place. People who live in Null sec already are who can oppose you, and there are certainly not 90% of people able to oppose you. Including people who have no interest in Null sec life or politics in the calculation is a cheap trick.


Where do you think each and every member of the imperium came from? We all came from highsec.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1325 - 2015-09-03 18:33:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Where do you think each and every member of the imperium came from? We all came from highsec.

Ignoring that the majority of players in High sec have no intention to go to Null sec, so even if you went on a PR spree, you could not motivate them properly to leave the area of space they are content with. Or the thing called alts of Null sec entities or otherwise organizations, like market alts, hauler alts, Incursion alts, mission alts, production alts, etc., who also do not have any intention to join Null sec for obvious reasons. Calling it "90% neutral or hostile to us" is grossly simplifying the reality, and by subtracting all the groups mentioned above, among many others, the 90% of "available players" shrinks significantly. Not to mention that many other organizations are not interested in creating what you have: an entire sector of space pacified, requiring you to complain in forums about lack of content and requiring you to move far away from your home to find "sustainable" activity.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1326 - 2015-09-03 18:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Lucas Kell wrote:
True enough, but it wouldn't be what it is if industry in null didn't suck. Logistically, getting to Jita is a hell of a lot harder than producing in null


If and only if you're starting in (deep) null. But null sec players aren't the only consideration. Jita is what it is because everyone in high sec can get to it easily, and everyone can get to high sec. Once you do, you can stuff everything in freighters (yours or hired) and send it off to one convenient, central location, confident that the freighters have a very high chance of arriving. And it's the convenient, central location that makes it worth the trip even from out in Cobalt Edge.

You can't separate the success of Jita from the fact that it's surrounded by well-populated, station-rich space that makes logistics easy.

(The only minor exception I can think of is a bias by wormholers toward Amarr, just because the Amarr Empire is so big that WHs are statistically more likely to spawn there. But then, it too is surrounded by space that makes logistics easy.)

Lucas Kell wrote:
rewards for mining in null are low enough that most people don't bother (hell, sometimes when we grind up indices and we don't have a hauler available we just abandon the cans in space because it's so worthless).


Probably because a lot of people in high sec don't mine for the rewards. Maybe there's something there. Hmmm.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1327 - 2015-09-03 19:23:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Where do you think each and every member of the imperium came from? We all came from highsec.

Ignoring that the majority of players in High sec have no intention to go to Null sec, so even if you went on a PR spree, you could not motivate them properly to leave the area of space they are content with. Or the thing called alts of Null sec entities or otherwise organizations, like market alts, hauler alts, Incursion alts, mission alts, production alts, etc., who also do not have any intention to join Null sec for obvious reasons. Calling it "90% neutral or hostile to us" is grossly simplifying the reality, and by subtracting all the groups mentioned above, among many others, the 90% of "available players" shrinks significantly. Not to mention that many other organizations are not interested in creating what you have: an entire sector of space pacified, requiring you to complain in forums about lack of content and requiring you to move far away from your home to find "sustainable" activity.


Because nobody else is complaining about the lack of content in null.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1328 - 2015-09-03 20:24:12 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
If and only if you're starting in (deep) null. But null sec players aren't the only consideration. Jita is what it is because everyone in high sec can get to it easily, and everyone can get to high sec. Once you do, you can stuff everything in freighters (yours or hired) and send it off to one convenient, central location, confident that the freighters have a very high chance of arriving. And it's the convenient, central location that makes it worth the trip even from out in Cobalt Edge.

You can't separate the success of Jita from the fact that it's surrounded by well-populated, station-rich space that makes logistics easy.
Of course, but a big portion of it is that other areas of space are simply not viable for industry, so that all gets done in highsec. Jita is the central point for that too. If industry were viable (and profitable) in other areas of space (not just null) it owuld go a long way to easing the bottleneck in highsec.

Plus, like I say, highsec should be taxed to hell. Slap on 5-10% minimum sales taxes in Jita and you'd see people shifting.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Harry Saq
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1329 - 2015-09-03 20:27:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Because most people live there because it's ludicrously safe and rewarding, while groups from null ship stuff out of there because industry in null is dead.

About right?
The closest you get to the point is "safe and rewarding."

The backbone of a thriving economy is logistics. The economy will necessarily be centered where the logistics are (relatively) safe and easy.

Jita is what it is because everyone can get to it reliably.
True enough, but it wouldn't be what it is if industry in null didn't suck. Logistically, getting to Jita is a hell of a lot harder than producing in null, but rewards for mining in null are low enough that most people don't bother (hell, sometimes when we grind up indices and we don't have a hauler available we just abandon the cans in space because it's so worthless). If industry in null wasn't dead, then there would be a lot less of a reason to go to highsec for everything. I still think they should bump the highsec trading taxes and broker fees up quite a bit too, based on sec status. That would go a long way to promoting sales elsewhere.

Until they do though, highsec trading is where the money is.

Did you play before jump freighters out of curiosity? Frankly, those should never have existed and completely destroyed any possibility of local economies, get rid of those and suddenly things look alot different. This game got nasty spoiled with space shrinkage, and you would be amazed how liberating it would be to rip the logistics security band-aid off, and just full on strip the jump fatigue reduction from them. Might as well finish what they started. I remember a time when we did live off the land, unfortunately we were stuck with warp to 15, but that's no longer a problem ;)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1330 - 2015-09-03 21:57:53 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
Did you play before jump freighters out of curiosity? Frankly, those should never have existed and completely destroyed any possibility of local economies, get rid of those and suddenly things look alot different. This game got nasty spoiled with space shrinkage, and you would be amazed how liberating it would be to rip the logistics security band-aid off, and just full on strip the jump fatigue reduction from them. Might as well finish what they started. I remember a time when we did live off the land, unfortunately we were stuck with warp to 15, but that's no longer a problem ;)
Yeah, I did. Logistics still existed and we still mainly shipped form highsec. I've been on many a freighter guard run P
The thing is there's never really been enough volume in null to keep up with demand. Until they fix that, highsec shipping is a necessity, no matter how tough the logistics.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Eternity Mistseeker
Renegades of Eve
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1331 - 2015-09-04 15:25:16 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Talking about another thing, I thought that destroying the iHub would reset the ADM and looking at Providence it doesn't seem so.

Another reason not to fight, if the fleet that you risk to defend the iHub is several times more expensive than the 300Misk of the iHub and your ADM is not seriously affected.

It does not reset it, you lose the strategic component, and the loss of the iHubs upgrades makes maintaining any significant military or industrial component a lot harder unless they are replaced.

If anything i do wonder if iHubs should have two timers! Twisted

The hub itself with any reasonable number of upgrades becomes quite an expensive piece of kit with a lot of strategic value to the system (explicitly the strategic index, and implicitly via its upgrades the military and industrial indices).

It also makes me wonder whether the owner of an iHub should be able to tax the system activities related to it.

Mild disclaimer: provi resident, non-sov holder...
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1332 - 2015-09-04 17:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Lucas Kell wrote:
Of course, but a big portion of it is that other areas of space are simply not viable for industry, so that all gets done in highsec. Jita is the central point for that too. If industry were viable (and profitable) in other areas of space (not just null) it owuld go a long way to easing the bottleneck in highsec.

Plus, like I say, highsec should be taxed to hell. Slap on 5-10% minimum sales taxes in Jita and you'd see people shifting.


But shifting where? You can't simultaneously say that nullsec isn't worth living in and that all we have to do is make the other place intolerable to fix that. All you'd have at the end is an entire game that's not worth living in. (Well, except maybe low sec. Keep your bloody mitts off low sec.) Everything I've seen of the sov ~metagame~ disinclines me to ever try it, so if you succeed in nerfing empire space I'll just have to take the nerf on the chin. There's no ISK/hr amount that can convince me to put up with something I don't want to put up with in a game.

And you're still dodging the problem that what makes null sec suck is logistics, which is rooted in why it's called "null sec." The remainder is built on player decisions that are rooted in first assuring maximum defense. As anyone who's ever looked at a fortress knows, defense always comes at the price of convenience, and logistics are a convenience. There's a reason why Black Frog only delivers to NPC stations.

Here's a wild thought: what if you actually looked beyond ISK/hr sometimes?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1333 - 2015-09-04 18:02:05 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
But shifting where? You can't simultaneously say that nullsec isn't worth living in and that all we have to do is make the other place intolerable to fix that. All you'd have at the end is an entire game that's not worth living in. (Well, except maybe low sec. Keep your bloody mitts off low sec.) Everything I've seen of the sov ~metagame~ disinclines me to ever try it, so if you succeed in nerfing empire space I'll just have to take the nerf on the chin. There's no ISK/hr amount that can convince me to put up with something I don't want to put up with in a game.

And you're still dodging the problem that what makes null sec suck is logistics, which is rooted in why it's called "null sec." The remainder is built on player decisions that are rooted in first assuring maximum defense. As anyone who's ever looked at a fortress knows, defense always comes at the price of convenience, and logistics are a convenience. There's a reason why Black Frog only delivers to NPC stations.

Here's a wild thought: what if you actually looked beyond ISK/hr sometimes?
Anywhere. Out of highsec, lower sec stations, yes, your precious lowsec. The problem I see is that it's much easier, safer and more rewarding to do everything in highsec. Industry in null is pretty much dead, because the margins on items in highsec hubs are small enough that the additional effort and cost of securing enough materials to do the builds in nullsec make you worse off than just shipping the finished product from Jita. Further, because industry in null is so weak the market for materials there is small and so mining isn't very good beyond ice. So you've bascially got two entire portions of gameplay that just won't grow in ull.

I'm not all about isk/hour, but I am about efficiency. It's simply not efficient to perform these activities in nullsec over highsec. It's not just about nerfing though. Sure, it needs to be made more expensive to do these things in highsec, but it also needs to be made more appealing to do them in null. I'd love to see a day that nullsec is significantly more self sufficient than it is.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1334 - 2015-09-05 07:39:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Where do you think each and every member of the imperium came from? We all came from highsec.

Ignoring that the majority of players in High sec have no intention to go to Null sec, so even if you went on a PR spree, you could not motivate them properly to leave the area of space they are content with. Or the thing called alts of Null sec entities or otherwise organizations, like market alts, hauler alts, Incursion alts, mission alts, production alts, etc., who also do not have any intention to join Null sec for obvious reasons. Calling it "90% neutral or hostile to us" is grossly simplifying the reality, and by subtracting all the groups mentioned above, among many others, the 90% of "available players" shrinks significantly. Not to mention that many other organizations are not interested in creating what you have: an entire sector of space pacified, requiring you to complain in forums about lack of content and requiring you to move far away from your home to find "sustainable" activity.


Because nobody else is complaining about the lack of content in null.


I mean you're right....other people are complaining about the lack of content, but I'd say it's about 90% Imperium members whining on the foums about how they have nothing to do and no one will fight them. Unblue even half of your coalition and you'd still be traveling 15+ jumps to find fights.

That's difference between the "nullsec blocs" vs the other members of the game. We choose to openly have a small number of blues so that we constantly have different people to shoot. Also, we poke the bear so to speak pretty much every day in order to keep getting content, which I know is another "crazy man on the corner preaching..." idea since you know, content is worth logging in for even it's not strategic. It's also one of the reaons a lot of groups, unsurprisingly who aren't blue with each other, have all decided to move to Black Rise/Placid for the content that the FW guys and local priates create.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1335 - 2015-09-05 12:33:20 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:


I mean you're right....other people are complaining about the lack of content, but I'd say it's about 90% Imperium members whining on the foums about how they have nothing to do and no one will fight them. Unblue even half of your coalition and you'd still be traveling 15+ jumps to find fights.

That's difference between the "nullsec blocs" vs the other members of the game. We choose to openly have a small number of blues so that we constantly have different people to shoot. Also, we poke the bear so to speak pretty much every day in order to keep getting content, which I know is another "crazy man on the corner preaching..." idea since you know, content is worth logging in for even it's not strategic. It's also one of the reaons a lot of groups, unsurprisingly who aren't blue with each other, have all decided to move to Black Rise/Placid for the content that the FW guys and local priates create.


If we are not the big boys someone else would take our place. Big groups will always happen, right now we are in a time where there is just one superpower. Telling us to disband does not solve the problem, the only way to solve it is to keep organisations like ours in mind when designing sov mechanics. We have been calling for nerfs to our own power for years now and we are continuing to do so because telling people to not abuse bad mechanics does not work.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1336 - 2015-09-05 19:44:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
If we are not the big boys someone else would take our place.

It should've been Vince Draken's renters: Northern Associates.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

PupserDerNebelhafte
Suicidal Actions
#1337 - 2015-09-11 22:40:48 UTC
are you working on an option to transfer structures too?
or if it cant be transfered directly maybe it would be possible to transfer it back to the npc corp.
like when it just got dropped so anyone else can reclaime it
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1338 - 2015-09-12 11:54:41 UTC
Told you so.