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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Author
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#961 - 2015-08-22 15:24:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
I doubt that, but since it is mainly goons who are complaining about this mechanic, their complaint is suspect.
But it's not mainly goons. There's an entire thread set up with a petition from groups who aren't goons with similar complaints. Most people involved in actually holding sov have these complaints, while generally the ones suggesting the mechanics are good are NPC corp players and groups with no intention of actually holding sov.

Kieron VonDeux wrote:
Simply put, two Alliances make up 1/3 of all posts in this feedback thread. That will always be suspect as being self-serving despite any logical arguments you try to make.
Uhh, not really. The feedback on mechanics will be primarily given by the players it most affects.


Counting the gewn tears in this thread... nah mostly gewns.
I'm actually involved in holding sov over ONE constellation (I don't count fleeting up with allies cuz it's their entosis and their sov, not mine). That is exactly how much my corp intends to occupy and guess what, it's perfectly safe from trollceptors because:
a) We have ratings all over it.
b) We don't mind undocking in whatever ship we're in the mood to pilot today to chase them away.
c) We got trollceptored once, dealt with it with ease undocking 10 entosis ships and wrapping it up in 15 minutes, but not before...
d) ...one of our guys have been remarkably successful in blapping entosis ceptors by camping a node in cloaky lockspeed fit Arazu, but that requires patience, so his success is yet to be reproduced by the less patient ones.

tl;dr It affects everyone equally but the most tears come from one numerous yet remarkably incapable coalition.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Sov can only be contested by a solo frigate if you put literally zero effort into the contest.

Once again: if it's too much trouble for you to undock a single ship to defend a system, why is that too low a bar to set to contest it?
It's not that it's too difficult, it's simply boring. There's no fun in endlessly chasing frigates around simply because you have to to hold space.


If you try to hold more than you can hold, you are bound to have some trouble.
If you have a house too big for you, cleaning it is going to be a hassle, and maintenance bills are going to be higher.
You are not paying those bills to have fun. You are paying them for the benefits of the house - the way to have fun is completely in your hands and is no way related to the house bills. If having that house prevents your fun, get rid of it, it's not rocket science.

tl;dr Being a Boring Rodrigues is your fault, not the system's. The system is fine.
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#962 - 2015-08-22 15:44:14 UTC
The galatea entosis speed limit and statis webifiers don't interact like you think they should. A ship that would go 10km/s does indeed go 4km/s when fit with an entosis link. When hit with a T2 stasis webifier, however, the ship still goes 4km/s!. Details on how I tested this posted here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5985182#post5985182
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#963 - 2015-08-22 16:43:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Anybody else can't help but get the feeling that if Aegis Sov had been proposed by a random forum-dweller instead of CCP it would have been shot down faster than a Titan hitting jump instead of bridge?

Seriously it reeks of all the bad game design that F&I is known for. I mean look at the patches so far.

Step 1: introduce new gimmicky mechanic completely obsoleting several ship classes.
Step 2: slap on arbitrary limitations and workarounds (4k/s speed limit? Where did that number come from?)
Step 3: slap on even more arbitrary limitations when that doesn't solve the problem (?)

People on F&I always say, if you need to add on a bunch of arbitrary limitations to make an idea work it's probably not a very good idea to begin with.

As some goon said earlier, the entire problem with dominion sov was capitals, supers, and titans. Not only are they very powerful but the game has a kind of positive feedback built into their construction. You use your supers to capture more systems to be able to build more supers to be able to capture more systems. Once anyone gets a lead on supers they snowball ahead.

If only someone could go back to the release of supers and tell CCP that ISK is not a balancing factor.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#964 - 2015-08-22 18:10:06 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Counting the gewn tears in this thread... nah mostly gewns.
Roll

Orca Platypus wrote:
I'm actually involved in holding sov over ONE constellation
Bull. You're posting on an NPC character, therefore you are an NPC player. You want to be taken seriously in sov discussions? Great! Post with your main.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#965 - 2015-08-22 20:45:47 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Counting the gewn tears in this thread... nah mostly gewns.
Roll

Orca Platypus wrote:
I'm actually involved in holding sov over ONE constellation
Bull. You're posting on an NPC character, therefore you are an NPC player. You want to be taken seriously in sov discussions? Great! Post with your main.


Thus actually being knowledgeable in entosis mechanics and warfare was gewned over by the way I choose to post.
Demagogy, Lucas, demagogy. Please do better 1/10.
bigbillthaboss3
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#966 - 2015-08-22 21:55:17 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Counting the gewn tears in this thread... nah mostly gewns.
Roll

Orca Platypus wrote:
I'm actually involved in holding sov over ONE constellation
Bull. You're posting on an NPC character, therefore you are an NPC player. You want to be taken seriously in sov discussions? Great! Post with your main.


Thus actually being knowledgeable in entosis mechanics and warfare was gewned over by the way I choose to post.
Demagogy, Lucas, demagogy. Please do better 1/10.


He's an alt of the Blades of Grass alliance who just snipped 6 open systems in Catch.

All I have to say to the people disagreeing with the idea trollceptors are bad is don't get upset when your entire region disappears over a week period to fleets of these ships.
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#967 - 2015-08-22 22:32:47 UTC
bigbillthaboss3 wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Counting the gewn tears in this thread... nah mostly gewns.
Roll

Orca Platypus wrote:
I'm actually involved in holding sov over ONE constellation
Bull. You're posting on an NPC character, therefore you are an NPC player. You want to be taken seriously in sov discussions? Great! Post with your main.


Thus actually being knowledgeable in entosis mechanics and warfare was gewned over by the way I choose to post.
Demagogy, Lucas, demagogy. Please do better 1/10.


He's an alt of the Blades of Grass alliance who just snipped 6 open systems in Catch.

All I have to say to the people disagreeing with the idea trollceptors are bad is don't get upset when your entire region disappears over a week period to fleets of these ships.


Remarkable is the gewns ignorance when it's showing itself speaking as if entosis warfare is the thing of tomorrow and not today.
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#968 - 2015-08-23 00:43:53 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:


People on F&I always say, if you need to add on a bunch of arbitrary limitations to make an idea work it's probably not a very good idea to begin with.


Especially when those arbitrary limitations interact poorly with the rest of the game's core mechanics, like say stasis webifiers.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#969 - 2015-08-23 01:17:26 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Counting the gewn tears in this thread... nah mostly gewns.
Roll
Orca Platypus wrote:
I'm actually involved in holding sov over ONE constellation
Bull. You're posting on an NPC character, therefore you are an NPC player. You want to be taken seriously in sov discussions? Great! Post with your main.
Thus actually being knowledgeable in entosis mechanics and warfare was gewned over by the way I choose to post.
Demagogy, Lucas, demagogy. Please do better 1/10.
But you clearly aren't knowledgeable. All you've done in this post is go "Zomg the gewn tears" and repeatedly spew the same bull. You want to prove you're part of sov ownership and thus your point of view holds any relevance at all? Go right ahead. All posting as an NPC alt does is tell us you're not confident enough in what you say to put your main's name to it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#970 - 2015-08-23 02:44:07 UTC
The "just undock a griffin for the interceptor" talking point is getting frayed and tired. Please let it rest.

The issue has always been catching and killing the interceptor before it can do anything. Its immunity to warp interdiction and its sub-two-second align time (now possible with the link online post-Galatea!) means that a form of defense that should be valid in defense of your space is not -- the humble gatecamp.

Without this, sov defense, by necessity, is a goose chase against the swiftest ships in the game, at both sub- and faster-than-light speeds.

Remove interdiction nullification from all ships. Failing that, please reinstate the mass penalty and make it apply if the link is offline or online.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#971 - 2015-08-23 02:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
Querns wrote:
The "just undock a griffin for the interceptor" talking point is getting frayed and tired. Please let it rest.

The issue has always been catching and killing the interceptor before it can do anything. Its immunity to warp interdiction and its sub-two-second align time (now possible with the link online post-Galatea!) means that a form of defense that should be valid in defense of your space is not -- the humble gatecamp.

Without this, sov defense, by necessity, is a goose chase against the swiftest ships in the game, at both sub- and faster-than-light speeds.

Remove interdiction nullification from all ships. Failing that, please reinstate the mass penalty and make it apply if the link is offline or online.


The issue never existed since if you undock anything at all (griffin is just one of the superior options), the ceptor can't do anything.
The gate camp is perfectly valid form of defense, which is supposed to have at least one weakness, because game design and stuff, you know, tradeoffs, meaningful decisions...

And yet you keep crying because your oh-so-nyanderful one-size-fits-all solution cannot fit 350lbs carebears you are.
Is there any shame about its own inability to undock a single frigate in gewnswarm out there?

ED: I just realized you're basically crying "remove gates". Now I wonder if that's the new genre in gewn tears or has it been there for a while without me noticing?
Kystraz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#972 - 2015-08-23 03:23:28 UTC
Killing or jamming an unending stream of troll interceptors is easy, but:

Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#973 - 2015-08-23 04:13:26 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:

The gate camp is perfectly valid form of defense, which is supposed to have at least one weakness, because game design and stuff, you know, tradeoffs, meaningful decisions...

It has weaknesses in the form of bridging and wormholes. A competent covops pilot can worm his way past a gatecamp, and light a covert cyno to bring in his buddies.

However, the covops pilot actually has to have some skill to get out of a gatecamp. Thus, the piloting skill of the defenders and attackers are pitted against each other.

Again, please stop hammering that talking point again and again and again. It's thoroughly debunked and not doing you any favors.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#974 - 2015-08-23 04:43:17 UTC
bigbillatard1 wrote:
He's an alt of the Blades of Grass alliance who just snipped 6 open systems in Catch.

If you're implying he is an alt of mine, then you are mistaken, I do not use or need alts for posting. As far as the systems in Catch, we had 4 of them prior to Aegus Sov, and the area around us is clear due to the shocking reality that we fought our neighbors and cleared it under Aegus sov. I am guessing you consider terrible being those that actually login, undock and capture/defend a reasonable number of systems proportional to their alliance size in accordance with mechanics in a game that is undergoing sweeping change. I feel very good about what my alliance has done, we have had plenty of action and renewed purpose (pretty sure the word for it is fun).

I would argue terrible is crying about sov ceptor trolls from behind a thick wall of allies while being so bored I would rather fly halfway across the map to use said ceptors to spend days of my life toasting systems I have no intention of using or being in. Those alliances anxiously awaiting orders and commands from leadership that has monotized that level of terrible into RL income while playing zombies online and plexing accounts that never actually login is just bonus. Double bonus terrible is clicking pap links for CTA ratting and mining ops in systems I couldn't care less about being in or defending. Triple bonus is complaining about those systems not being worth having...and blaming game designers for me having to be there for "reasons".
Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#975 - 2015-08-23 04:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Orca Platypus
Bunch of bullshit as usual.

Querns wrote:
It has weaknesses in the form of bridging and wormholes. A competent covops pilot can worm his way past a gatecamp, and light a covert cyno to bring in his buddies.
However, the covops pilot actually has to have some skill to get out of a gatecamp. Thus, the piloting skill of the defenders and attackers are pitted against each other.


With a titan gatecamp, there is no worming. There is no skill other than putting this space sausage on the gate. And you perfectly know there are other ways for a perfect gatecamp. So no, those are the "remove gates" tears, and nothing more.

Querns wrote:
Again, please stop hammering that talking point again and again and again. It's thoroughly debunked and not doing you any favors.

It has been bunked as very efficient solution. Just because you are too bad, lazy and self-entitled to do it doesn't mean it's any less credible.

Kystraz wrote:
Killing or jamming an unending stream of troll interceptors is easy, but:

Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved

And you are busy crying for something both easy and fun?
Would you prefer a bombless bomber structure grind to chasing away interceptors? With the same frequency, naturally.
In case your answer is no, then the current system is more enjoyable than dominion sov to both you and attacker.
As such, we should not approve of measures which make it more enjoyable to one side at expense of the other...
Chrome Veinss
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#976 - 2015-08-23 04:57:33 UTC
I dont mind the trollceptors, especially the ones that we get in deklein turning off a station service here and there and even ocassionally taking sov. Its true, if we had active people in every system and corp hangars with griffins everywhere it would be trivial to undock and jam them. Not fun but a lot of eve things aren't fun. Maybe we will have to adapt and do that. I wouldnt mind. Maybe we can do with a bit less space and more renters to ensure there are always people available to jam and entosis things. That is all fairly trivial.

I think the bigger issue is that we have gone from a system where hundreds to thousands of people in ships ranging from frigates to dreadnaughts had to commit to complex campaigns lasting weeks or months in order to conquer a region to a system where a single person in one of the cheapest ships in the game with little to no support can do the same in a couple days, provided they have more time available and a higher resistance to boredom than their "enemy". But of course this "single person" is irrelevant. What matters is what happens when its two thousand of them, highly coordinated, operating under a single command structure. And we're going to have to do that because no one else will and we need to study how the system works in the hands of an actual coalition. I get the feeling that its everyone else that will be crying about how unfair it is once we're done with the test though!
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#977 - 2015-08-23 05:03:44 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
Bunch of bullshit as usual.

Querns wrote:
It has weaknesses in the form of bridging and wormholes. A competent covops pilot can worm his way past a gatecamp, and light a covert cyno to bring in his buddies.
However, the covops pilot actually has to have some skill to get out of a gatecamp. Thus, the piloting skill of the defenders and attackers are pitted against each other.


With a titan gatecamp, there is no worming. There is no skill other than putting this space sausage on the gate. And you perfectly know there are other ways for a perfect gatecamp. So no, those are the "remove gates" tears, and nothing more.

These are patently false. Titan gatecamps can be escaped, and there is no such thing as a perfect gatecamp.

Quote:

Querns wrote:
Again, please stop hammering that talking point again and again and again. It's thoroughly debunked and not doing you any favors.

It has been bunked as very efficient solution. Just because you are too bad, lazy and self-entitled to do it doesn't mean it's any less credible.


So now it's our fault for not using interceptors? Huh?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Kieron VonDeux
#978 - 2015-08-23 05:06:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Orca Platypus wrote:
Counting the gewn tears in this thread... nah mostly gewns.
Roll
Orca Platypus wrote:
I'm actually involved in holding sov over ONE constellation
Bull. You're posting on an NPC character, therefore you are an NPC player. You want to be taken seriously in sov discussions? Great! Post with your main.
Thus actually being knowledgeable in entosis mechanics and warfare was gewned over by the way I choose to post.
Demagogy, Lucas, demagogy. Please do better 1/10.
But you clearly aren't knowledgeable. All you've done in this post is go "Zomg the gewn tears" and repeatedly spew the same bull. You want to prove you're part of sov ownership and thus your point of view holds any relevance at all? Go right ahead. All posting as an NPC alt does is tell us you're not confident enough in what you say to put your main's name to it.


All you do is look for ways to trash someone who doesn't agree with you when they post with their main.
It simply gives you ammo in trying to derail their argument without actually attacking the argument.

That is harder to do when someone chooses to not post with their main. You have to go with blind personal attacks which are not as effective.

You want the argument and poster to be your basis for counter-argument.

Not just the argument and the merits of it alone.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#979 - 2015-08-23 05:18:55 UTC
Chrome Veinss wrote:
I dont mind the trollceptors, especially the ones that we get in deklein turning off a station service here and there and even ocassionally taking sov. Its true, if we had active people in every system and corp hangars with griffins everywhere it would be trivial to undock and jam them. Not fun but a lot of eve things aren't fun. Maybe we will have to adapt and do that. I wouldnt mind. Maybe we can do with a bit less space and more renters to ensure there are always people available to jam and entosis things. That is all fairly trivial.

I think the bigger issue is that we have gone from a system where hundreds to thousands of people in ships ranging from frigates to dreadnaughts had to commit to complex campaigns lasting weeks or months in order to conquer a region to a system where a single person in one of the cheapest ships in the game with little to no support can do the same in a couple days, provided they have more time available and a higher resistance to boredom than their "enemy". But of course this "single person" is irrelevant. What matters is what happens when its two thousand of them, highly coordinated, operating under a single command structure. And we're going to have to do that because no one else will and we need to study how the system works in the hands of an actual coalition. I get the feeling that its everyone else that will be crying about how unfair it is once we're done with the test though!


Its going to have to happen just like all of those other nerfs we forced in the past, it always goes the same way. We say x is overpowered and need to be changed, idiots say "gon tears hur dur", we try to use logic, idiots say "gon tears hur dur", we abuse the living **** out of said overpowered thing, CCP nerfs said thing, idiots celebrate goons getting nerfed forgetting we had called for the thing to be nerfed in the first place.

You would think people would have learned by now that when we say something is ****** up it should probably get fixed.
Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#980 - 2015-08-23 05:20:31 UTC
Orca Platypus wrote:
The issue never existed since if you undock anything at all (griffin is just one of the superior options), the ceptor can't do anything.
The gate camp is perfectly valid form of defense, which is supposed to have at least one weakness, because game design and stuff, you know, tradeoffs, meaningful decisions...

And yet you keep crying because your oh-so-nyanderful one-size-fits-all solution cannot fit 350lbs carebears you are.
Is there any shame about its own inability to undock a single frigate in gewnswarm out there?

ED: I just realized you're basically crying "remove gates". Now I wonder if that's the new genre in gewn tears or has it been there for a while without me noticing?


I'm tempted to place a bet with myself on when you will finally get what the problem is, and not run around red herrings you set up :)