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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Author
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#861 - 2015-08-21 09:50:09 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I have not indicated such. While a ceptor can run away from unprepared or falsely prepared defenders, it has no means of warping away for a certain period of time and it can in fact be caught by other ceptors and some other ships. I have said that before. Attacking a ratter, on the other hand, gives the attacker total freedom of engagement and disengagement because they are not leashed to a structure.

Please do not try to turn around words into things I do not say. Much appreciated.


I would still just use a naga and a combat prober to solve my problems there. Warp to 0, the further he runs the faster he dies.
Rhohan
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#862 - 2015-08-21 10:09:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhohan
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I have not indicated such. While a ceptor can run away from unprepared or falsely prepared defenders, it has no means of warping away for a certain period of time and it can in fact be caught by other ceptors and some other ships. I have said that before. Attacking a ratter, on the other hand, gives the attacker total freedom of engagement and disengagement because they are not leashed to a structure.

Please do not try to turn around words into things I do not say. Much appreciated.


Cepters fitted for speed will always outrun cepters fitted for combat. You are very much defending the use of uncatchable ships for attacking sov. Attackers having to fight to take sov is not a bad thing.


Quote:
Please show us on the Sov map where the entosis link touched you...


You are right, you should have to fight to take sov.
But one should also be able to easily disrupt sov.

Crying about a ceptor affecting sov is something I would expect from a no-body alliance, not Goonswarm.
Defending your space in the new Sov isn't hard if your system is actually occupied.

Though taking whole constellations for the hell of it and maintaining them absentee, of course is a lot harder.
As it should be to be honest.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#863 - 2015-08-21 10:18:45 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
They do not know if something is coming if there are people already in the systems. If neutrals to them need to come into the system and then do a long warp in the first place, it's no wonder that the ceptor pilot has a long advance warning time. As said, you are doing it wrong if this is a problem for you. As for the getting away part, while it can be bothersome, to me it is a won fight if their trolling was stopped before they can cause serious trouble.
d-scan is a thing.

Most people hanging about in a system aren't hanging about in a PvP capable ship, since CCP are yet to make PvE and PvP content comparable. This means that upon a neut entering a system, a defender needs to go and change ship before warping to defend the points. They also have no idea which point (if any) the neutral is going to contest, thus the neut will generally get a headstart. Upon warping to the neut, the neut sees the approaching ship in d-scan and burns further away from the node (being at 25km already). If the neut knows even remotely what he's doing, the only ships capable of catching him will be so paper thin on tank they can be blapped on approach anyway. There's a video of a guy doing exactly this over and over.

Seriously, you have to be pretty bad to get caught.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#864 - 2015-08-21 10:23:05 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
now i also noticed that you started to contradict yourself. on one hand you are saying that ceptors are attacking active sov, on another you are saying that they disappear as soon as defenders enter local. to me it means you aren't talking about active sov in the latter case.
Actually I said when they show up, as in on grid (or d-scan for those with any sense).

Warmeister wrote:
and i suggested a method of preventing trollceptors without killmail and without having to exclude them from sov warfare but you seem to be repeatedly ignoring that. putting your ship down as collateral isn't exactly nothing. you also put down your effort which can be wasted by any hostile simply appearing in local.
What method was that?

And no, putting your ship down as collateral isn't nothing. What they have no where nothing gets put down as collateral is in fact nothing. Sov should require some level of commitment to contest.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#865 - 2015-08-21 10:23:49 UTC
Rhohan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I have not indicated such. While a ceptor can run away from unprepared or falsely prepared defenders, it has no means of warping away for a certain period of time and it can in fact be caught by other ceptors and some other ships. I have said that before. Attacking a ratter, on the other hand, gives the attacker total freedom of engagement and disengagement because they are not leashed to a structure.

Please do not try to turn around words into things I do not say. Much appreciated.


Cepters fitted for speed will always outrun cepters fitted for combat. You are very much defending the use of uncatchable ships for attacking sov. Attackers having to fight to take sov is not a bad thing.


Quote:
Please show us on the Sov map where the entosis link touched you...


You are right, you should have to fight to take sov.
But one should also be able to easily disrupt sov.

Crying about a ceptor affecting sov is something I would expect from a no-body alliance, not Goonswarm.
Defending your space in the new Sov isn't hard if your system is actually occupied.

Though taking whole constellations for the hell of it and maintaining them absentee, of course is a lot harder.
As it should be to be honest.


It's not that it's hard for us its that it's even more boring than grinding all of delves structures. Chasing around cepters all day gets boring very fast.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#866 - 2015-08-21 10:25:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:


What makes you think that you would be able to attack sov effectively zero risk?


That's what is happening right now. We did say this would become cepters trolling sov and CCPs own data shows that people using cepters and other avoidance fitted ships are the norm.


Please have the decency to not call trolling "attacking" sov. You can not take a system with ceptor unless defenders allow it to happen. And now you see the point- its not the role of game mechanics to defend systems for you.

Not a single system worth **** has been taken so far without a fleet fight.


The bulk of timers have been caused by avoidance fitted ships. That shows we have a problem.



I suggest the problem is because no bugger turned up to contest the attack, yet somehow feel they still deserve the space.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#867 - 2015-08-21 10:27:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
And effectively remove any opposition to any sovholder with at least some level of power? Great idea.
Lol? So you believe a cruiser is too much cost for taking part in an alliance level activity?

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Considering the lack of timers in that region, no one manages to get anything in that region to screw with your stuff sufficiently. With ceptors out of the equation, it becomes even less likely that anybody manages to get into that region and screws with your stuff. Anywhere.
Firstly, there's loads of stuff in our space that isn't interceptors, get a clue.

Secondly, if we work to defend our borders 24/7, why shouldn't we be able to prevent people getting in without using wormholes or bridging to spies?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#868 - 2015-08-21 10:34:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
And effectively remove any opposition to any sovholder with at least some level of power? Great idea.
Lol? So you believe a cruiser is too much cost for taking part in an alliance level activity?

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Considering the lack of timers in that region, no one manages to get anything in that region to screw with your stuff sufficiently. With ceptors out of the equation, it becomes even less likely that anybody manages to get into that region and screws with your stuff. Anywhere.
Firstly, there's loads of stuff in our space that isn't interceptors, get a clue.

Secondly, if we work to defend our borders 24/7, why shouldn't we be able to prevent people getting in without using wormholes or bridging to spies?


Lets be honest, the only competent gate camps in our space are run by hostiles.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#869 - 2015-08-21 10:35:12 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Secondly, if we work to defend our borders 24/7, why shouldn't we be able to prevent people getting in without using wormholes or bridging to spies?


If you actually do that, not even trollceptors can get in.

Until they change the mass, which is annoying.
CCP Lebowski
C C P
C C P Alliance
#870 - 2015-08-21 10:54:24 UTC
Kalenn Istarion wrote:
A specific question which is not clear from the post: Does the reduced timer impact the initial ref timer as well, or only Command Nodes / services which are coming out of reinforcement?

If the shorter times apply to the initial ref period then this is an awful change. If they apply only after a structure has been reffed then it's a net positive.
The capture time of the command nodes is the only thing that is being shortened. The times to reinforce a Sovereignty structure remain the same.

CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0

@CCP_Lebowski

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#871 - 2015-08-21 11:01:24 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Secondly, if we work to defend our borders 24/7, why shouldn't we be able to prevent people getting in without using wormholes or bridging to spies?
If you actually do that, not even trollceptors can get in.

Until they change the mass, which is annoying.
There's only a couple of ships fits capable of stopping an interceptor passing through and you generally still have to have lightning reflexes, live in the UK and hope they aren't running WCS to bust the camp.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#872 - 2015-08-21 11:03:30 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Secondly, if we work to defend our borders 24/7, why shouldn't we be able to prevent people getting in without using wormholes or bridging to spies?
If you actually do that, not even trollceptors can get in.

Until they change the mass, which is annoying.
There's only a couple of ships fits capable of stopping an interceptor passing through and you generally still have to have lightning reflexes, live in the UK and hope they aren't running WCS to bust the camp.


What self respecting fast locker only uses one point.....
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#873 - 2015-08-21 11:11:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
And effectively remove any opposition to any sovholder with at least some level of power? Great idea.
Lol? So you believe a cruiser is too much cost for taking part in an alliance level activity?

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Considering the lack of timers in that region, no one manages to get anything in that region to screw with your stuff sufficiently. With ceptors out of the equation, it becomes even less likely that anybody manages to get into that region and screws with your stuff. Anywhere.
Firstly, there's loads of stuff in our space that isn't interceptors, get a clue.

Secondly, if we work to defend our borders 24/7, why shouldn't we be able to prevent people getting in without using wormholes or bridging to spies?

I do not believe that a cruiser is too much to ask for a sov attack, but it is infeasible to use as a harassment tool. As stated by several parties before me, real sov assaults are usually undertaken by real fleets and not by a ceptor. Harassment, on the other hand, is a task that suits ceptors very well. Please do not confuse them.

Holding sov is more than holding and securing borders. All your space is always at stake and should be defended. IF you limit your defensive actions to borders (which you do not do, obviously), ceptors to get through your perimeters are a more than viable tool to make you remember that fact. If you had perfect border controls, a ceptor would not get through the gate camps. (Well, for now at least. With the removal of the mass penalty, this might change again.)

With regards to your other post: This is a thing now, after the changes, any ceptor and other ships I named can easily catch up with a running ceptor. There are also fittings proper ceptor fittings that are fast and not blap-able. You also still cling to the kill-it-mentality. You should really get someone to cut your claws so that you can let go of that. A fight and winning one is more than killing a ship. the sooner you realize that, the better for your perception and solution finding capabilities. Look at Caleb, he's got it right.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Speedkermit Damo
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#874 - 2015-08-21 11:35:05 UTC
Querns wrote:
I will however admit publicly to a great deal of amusement in the fact that Aegis failed to "kill" or even "moderately annoy" the Imperium.


And yet here you all are moaning

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#875 - 2015-08-21 12:29:32 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I do not believe that a cruiser is too much to ask for a sov attack, but it is infeasible to use as a harassment tool. As stated by several parties before me, real sov assaults are usually undertaken by real fleets and not by a ceptor. Harassment, on the other hand, is a task that suits ceptors very well. Please do not confuse them.
Except it's only harassment because they do have the ability to contest sov solo. An interceptor has bubble immunity an high speed because it's designed to intercept, it's a tackle ship. You want it to be used for attacking sov for "harassment" because it's easy and safe, that's all this is.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
With regards to your other post: This is a thing now, after the changes, any ceptor and other ships I named can easily catch up with a running ceptor. There are also fittings proper ceptor fittings that are fast and not blap-able. You also still cling to the kill-it-mentality. You should really get someone to cut your claws so that you can let go of that. A fight and winning one is more than killing a ship. the sooner you realize that, the better for your perception and solution finding capabilities. Look at Caleb, he's got it right.
It's not just "kill-it", it's to do with people being able to contest sov, solo, with no risk. It's a dumb mechanics to leave open since all it;s going to do is mean that people who would normally be around generating conflict will instead just run around evading. Why are you so against conflict existing in nullsec?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Moneymake
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#876 - 2015-08-21 12:29:36 UTC
Just wait and see what will happen to null sec when coalitions that have set more than 50% of null to blue, the likes of Imperium and friends. Come and get on to your sov with no investment what so ever. Not even bother to deploy capitals let alone super's.

This move by Fozzy sov & CCP, to make it easy for small alliances to harass sov actually empowers the big guys now more than ever. Let's see when Providence burns (Provi block has set 99% of null to red) and that content is gone in just one week or maybe less, to recover from it will take them two or three months. At times that the game is in need of content.

Interested to see how this sov will work for the small guy.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#877 - 2015-08-21 12:32:55 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Querns wrote:
I will however admit publicly to a great deal of amusement in the fact that Aegis failed to "kill" or even "moderately annoy" the Imperium.
And yet here you all are moaning
Providing feedback and pointing out flaws which make designed game mechanics uninteresting isn't "moaning".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#878 - 2015-08-21 12:34:25 UTC
There this thing called 'probes' and with it I have no difficulties killing trollfrigs and ceptors even moving 8+ km/sec. It's not exactly hard to do. Points are not even necessary thanks to the fact that they cannot even warp off. It's almost funny.

Nothing wrong with trollceptors.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#879 - 2015-08-21 12:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Moneymake wrote:
Let's see when Providence burns


I'll believe that when I see it, it was threatened before this even went live and.... *crickets*

And if it does, it'll sure as hell not be interceptors.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#880 - 2015-08-21 12:39:24 UTC
Moneymake wrote:
Just wait and see what will happen to null sec when coalitions that have set more than 50% of null to blue, the likes of Imperium and friends. Come and get on to your sov with no investment what so ever. Not even bother to deploy capitals let alone super's.

This move by Fozzy sov & CCP, to make it easy for small alliances to harass sov actually empowers the big guys now more than ever. Let's see when Providence burns (Provi block has set 99% of null to red) and that content is gone in just one week or maybe less, to recover from it will take them two or three months. At times that the game is in need of content.

Interested to see how this sov will work for the small guy.
Shhh, don't tell them that. It's still a secret.

Obviously, we are the big bad Imperium and we are only posting because we are rapidly losing our space, and not because of things like "entertainment" and "game balance". These changes totally make it easier for small alliances and don't all help us with mass destruction of people's space.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.