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[Galatea] First batch of sov capture iterations

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#821 - 2015-08-21 04:18:55 UTC
Has anyone even tried to make a Deklein timer? Or have we SNIPED any attempts?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#822 - 2015-08-21 04:40:14 UTC
Querns wrote:
I will however admit publicly to a great deal of amusement in the fact that Aegis failed to "kill" or even "moderately annoy" the Imperium.

I believe the vast majority of the posts in this thread speak to the contrary on the annoy aspect, and since coalitions aren't actually supported through game mechanics, kill is probably the wrong word, since a coalition is just an agreement in standings and effort, nothing can kill that but those that participate in it. So the concept of a coalition can live as long as those carry it, making it unnecessary and pointless is the actual cure to space cancer ;)

If Eve servers could actually support huge battles between ridiculously large fleets than none of this would be necessary, so it is not I that loathes large gatherings of players for mutual destruction, but rather technology, so in light of that, I offer this excerpt from reddit:
"How everyone actually thought about one of those "I was there" Dominion battles

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=313717"
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#823 - 2015-08-21 04:54:46 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
Querns wrote:
I will however admit publicly to a great deal of amusement in the fact that Aegis failed to "kill" or even "moderately annoy" the Imperium.

I believe the vast majority of the posts in this thread speak to the contrary on the annoy aspect



Please count the # of different goon posters in here that have explicitly said this annoys them (only count each poster once even if they post more than once) and compare that to the number in goons. You can't call that small a number moderately annoying the entire imperium.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#824 - 2015-08-21 05:20:11 UTC
Querns wrote:
Warmeister wrote:

torp bombers your coalition used to grind sov during fountain and halloween wars that could cloak as soon as someone enters local, and that can move via covert cynos.

It astounds me that people are still bitter about siegefleet.


I'm still bitter about siegefleet. As a member of many a siegefleet, it was ******* horrible.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#825 - 2015-08-21 06:27:50 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
now if someone is serious about taking sov, there is no reason inty shouldn't be able to do it when defender doesn't show up.
Again, why an inty?
If noone shows up, ship type is irrelevant. The ONLY reason to suggest an inty should do it is so that if people DO show up they can run away.

I note you've avoided this multiple times now, as well as the whole sigefleet things once I made it clear that I'd be fine if entosising a node required 50 inties instead of 1. The reason for that is you don't have a leg to stand on because your arguments are flawed.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#826 - 2015-08-21 06:30:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I note you've avoided this multiple times now, as well as the whole sigefleet things once I made it clear that I'd be fine if entosising a node required 50 inties instead of 1. The reason for that is you don't have a leg to stand on because your arguments are flawed.

It's because moa can't get it up at nights we're vulnerable**... 50 people?

**Maybe on weekends, but you know how crazy we are then

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#827 - 2015-08-21 06:44:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
now if someone is serious about taking sov, there is no reason inty shouldn't be able to do it when defender doesn't show up.
Again, why an inty?
If noone shows up, ship type is irrelevant. The ONLY reason to suggest an inty should do it is so that if people DO show up they can run away.

I note you've avoided this multiple times now, as well as the whole sigefleet things once I made it clear that I'd be fine if entosising a node required 50 inties instead of 1. The reason for that is you don't have a leg to stand on because your arguments are flawed.

ok i'll rephrase

i think anyone should be able to capture undefended sov in any ship they like.
including the noobship if they can manage to fit entosis on it.

i didn't avoid anything multiple times. i explicitly said in one of my posts that i don't think that defenders should expect free killmail if they do decide to turn up.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#828 - 2015-08-21 06:55:05 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Warmeister wrote:
now if someone is serious about taking sov, there is no reason inty shouldn't be able to do it when defender doesn't show up.
Again, why an inty?
If noone shows up, ship type is irrelevant. The ONLY reason to suggest an inty should do it is so that if people DO show up they can run away.

I note you've avoided this multiple times now, as well as the whole sigefleet things once I made it clear that I'd be fine if entosising a node required 50 inties instead of 1. The reason for that is you don't have a leg to stand on because your arguments are flawed.
ok i'll rephrase

i think anyone should be able to capture undefended sov in any ship they like.
including the noobship if they can manage to fit entosis on it.

i didn't avoid anything multiple times. i explicitly said in one of my posts that i don't think that defenders should expect free killmail if they do decide to turn up.
So why should they also be able to contest active sov in any ship they like, risk free? Since that's what's generally occuring. They use an inty so they can run away when defenders show up. How about CCP make it so the entosis link explodes if you move away from the target while it's active, so you cost yourself the entosis link and a trip back to station each time you run away. There you go, no free killmail.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#829 - 2015-08-21 07:10:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So why should they also be able to contest active sov in any ship they like, risk free?

Fozzie's new vision of sov? This is the new eve.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Warmeister
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#830 - 2015-08-21 07:16:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So why should they also be able to contest active sov in any ship they like, risk free? Since that's what's generally occuring. They use an inty so they can run away when defenders show up. How about CCP make it so the entosis link explodes if you move away from the target while it's active, so you cost yourself the entosis link and a trip back to station each time you run away. There you go, no free killmail.

they shouldn't

however i think you and I have different definitions of 'active sov'.

to me 'active sov' is the one where defenders don't have to make an effort to 'show up' during their vulnerability window.
they are either already there, or moving through the system on the regular basis as part of their normal activities.

now the length of the vulnerability window, the times it takes to RF something or to capture the nodes is something i think should be fine tuned based on player feedback. as well as what happens with the nodes no one bothered to cap/defend.

but i strongly object to crippling ships further than they already are by the current entosis 'perks', just for the sake of rewarding defenders with guaranteed kill mail for showing up.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#831 - 2015-08-21 07:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Querns wrote:
I will however admit publicly to a great deal of amusement in the fact that Aegis failed to "kill" or even "moderately annoy" the Imperium.


Only a moron would think that occupancy based/use-it-or-lose-it ownership basis would negatively affect you guys.

You are literally the poster children for "doing it right in H2 2015™".

What is needed is to reward you appropriately for this. A carrot if you will, as opposed to you just not getting the stick as if that is reward in of itself....which takes me to the next section:


My only wish would be that as a community we set aside our differences and put even half the effort that we are putting into arguing over the capture mechanic into forming solid ideas to making Sov worth holding and attractive to line members.

If there was a way that people could (more) viably live in their systems, a whole lot of things would change overnight.

We're fiddling whilst Rome burns here.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#832 - 2015-08-21 07:38:13 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So why should they also be able to contest active sov in any ship they like, risk free?
Why should keeping Sov be risk free? Without any possible form of harassment, sov owning becomes risk free especially for large and powerful entities, while smaller entities suffer from unreasonable threat potential. Roll Besides, you still cling to the dense "Must get kills for my killboard to be successful!" mentality. Basing your ideas on fixing Fozzie Sov on this mentality is not going to help.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#833 - 2015-08-21 07:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Querns wrote:
I will however admit publicly to a great deal of amusement in the fact that Aegis failed to "kill" or even "moderately annoy" the Imperium.


Well Deklin is geographically difficult to get at, surrouned by blue regions and has a very large and active PvE and mining population, due to that is anyone seriously surprised, I am not!

You have to look at the edges and Pure Blind is just that, and the TNT alliance seems to have given up and the Goon rental group is now in occupancy, sort of if you get what I mean. It does seem however that you are slowly gaining that control, but lets see how that pans out when you start your campaign in Provi, but even then I do not expect anyone to try for Deklin, its too remote and too difficult, thats for you people bleating on about no one being able to RF a system there.

But without any doubt the failure to gain full control in Pure Blind has affected your plans, we are talking about a much delayed deployment to Provi, and that does actually indicate that the system is working.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#834 - 2015-08-21 07:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiyshimin
afkalt wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
I am curious about something.


Why has CCP decided that the minimum barrier to entry as a Sov holding entity is a 50 mill, T2 frigate?


Dominion sov was flawed. The investment required to be a player in the Sov game at that time was a massive super fleet, and the logistic acumen of a real life medium sized business. This was absolutely unsustainable and needed to change. I don't think too many people would disagree.

It did have some advantages however. Wars required commitment, both in time and assets. The wars and politics were unlike anything any other game has offered. They were in many ways, EVE's unique selling point. They were the narrative for the history of the game. They gave the game a prestige. That's gone now. You can obtain Sov using an unarmed ship.

To me, contesting sov should be a game of thrones. Sov wars should require commitment to initiate. 50 mill of T2 frigate is not a commitment. My corp, which doesn't live in null, should not have been able to take sov just for yuks.

Dominion had limited life left in it because there were only a finite number of entities that could reasonably contest it. It had to change, but I think it was a mistake to abandon everything learned from it. There is no sense of occasion in fozzie sov. There is no sense of loss when a system changes hands or accomplishment when it is taken. Somewhere, between the obscene commitment of dominion and the laughable execution of fozziesov must be a happy medium.

Bring back the game of thrones. Bring "epic" back.


Well put.


Does this not fit the bill? A somewhat serious fight over a station: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3hn4n5/fozzisov_fight_pretty_awesome_clash_going_on/
http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=4825,4830,4828,4826,4824,4829,4827,4815&b=6643920&e=120&t=WrmIauqLc&r=1

Machariel, T3, HAC fleets, not interceptors dancing around field here.

"Epic"? No, I'd say not - but certainly an indicator that when people REALLY want something and the owners REALLY want to keep it it's not the small ships which are wheeled out.


The system is in its infancy, this is the first actual fight I'm aware of and it's sure as hell not nano-games.


I also call bullshit and hyperobole on the whole idea of "solo ceptor taking sov". We are one of few offensive alliances fighting a sov war atm, and every meaningful system and station timer has been a full CTA for both parties, and good fights have been had. The systems between our and the enemy's home turf have turned into a warzone, changing hands multiple times. This is cool on the other hand because it generates constant fights (yes imagine, some people actually do sov for fights and not PVE) but also the single weakness (imho) of the new system- the 18-hour vulnerability window of freshly taken systems is too long because people do have real lives.

This thread is mostly entrenched, defensive people whining about PVP content not coming to them in a shape and form that is comfortable for them to deal with. My perspective is from a real war as offender, and the difference to Dominion system is absolutely neglible- you dunk or get dunked. Id really urge every whiner here to go and make content for yourself instead of whining about being the content for trolls.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#835 - 2015-08-21 07:55:48 UTC
Warmeister wrote:
they shouldn't

however i think you and I have different definitions of 'active sov'.

to me 'active sov' is the one where defenders don't have to make an effort to 'show up' during their vulnerability window.
they are either already there, or moving through the system on the regular basis as part of their normal activities.
You realise that these nodes aren't in anoms, right? Nobody is spending their playtime sitting idly watching a node, so whatever the case, you have to "show up" to defend it. Interceptors are used because trolls are attacking active sov, waiting for someone to respond then running away as fast as they can. #It's got nothing to do with them wanting to attack undefended sov, that's why there are systems with no owner right now, because they don;t want to sov, they want the response. They want to waste people's time getting them to chase round their uncatchable ships.

Warmeister wrote:
but i strongly object to crippling ships further than they already are by the current entosis 'perks', just for the sake of rewarding defenders with guaranteed kill mail for showing up.
And I suggested a method of preventing trollceptors without a killmail. That said, why when you opt to contest sov should you need to put NOTHING on the line? You're single handedly attacking an entire solar system, asking you to put your ship down as collateral is not really that much.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#836 - 2015-08-21 07:58:48 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
So why should they also be able to contest active sov in any ship they like, risk free?
Why should keeping Sov be risk free? Without any possible form of harassment, sov owning becomes risk free especially for large and powerful entities, while smaller entities suffer from unreasonable threat potential. Roll Besides, you still cling to the dense "Must get kills for my killboard to be successful!" mentality. Basing your ideas on fixing Fozzie Sov on this mentality is not going to help.
How is it in any way risk free? Even by removing interceptors it's not risk free. Are you saying that the only ships that people can possibly take to attack our sov are interceptors?

on top of which, interceptors aren't even a risk, they are an annoyance. Interceptors are easy to remove because you just show up in a ship that can volley them off the field and they run away. Interceptors won't be the ones taking sov. Risk comes when a group seriously wants to take sov and smashes your nodes down.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#837 - 2015-08-21 07:59:08 UTC
Roll These ceptors are not uncatchable... There are several ships that can easily catch them, among others Dramiels, Garmurs and other ceptors. You just need to be there in time. If you have to go several jumps to get to the attacked system, you are not doing it right.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#838 - 2015-08-21 08:04:27 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Roll These ceptors are not uncatchable... There are several ships that can easily catch them, among others Dramiels, Garmurs and other ceptors. You just need to be there in time. If you have to go several jumps to get to the attacked system, you are not doing it right.
In the time it takes a response ship to arrive on grid the trollceptor will be most of the way off the grid and moving at ludicrous speed. Anyone caught in a trollceptor got caught because they are terrible at EVE.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#839 - 2015-08-21 08:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
afkalt wrote:
Does this not fit the bill? A somewhat serious fight over a station: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3hn4n5/fozzisov_fight_pretty_awesome_clash_going_on/
http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=4825,4830,4828,4826,4824,4829,4827,4815&b=6643920&e=120&t=WrmIauqLc&r=1
[this link is not working, use tinyurl next time please]
Machariel, T3, HAC fleets, not interceptors dancing around field here.

This was not a fight over a station.
This was a fight to shoot each other and no-one could care less if the station was saved or captured. We are exchanging blows with G-Club for a while, and we use various means - roams, POS bashing, sov timers. We could easily just put SBUs and it would be the same fight.

There was another fight when we wanted to take a system in Catch. It started with ceptors, but escalated fairly quickly to T3 dessies and then to HACs - which is fine and proves that Fozziesov can work. We overwhelmed the enemy, which was fun too, but what happened next was a long devastating node grind with interceptors and griffins and all those nice stuff.

Edit:
Oh, and btw, both G-Club and Stainwagon leaders signed that petition of UAxDeath.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#840 - 2015-08-21 08:15:49 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Roll These ceptors are not uncatchable... There are several ships that can easily catch them, among others Dramiels, Garmurs and other ceptors. You just need to be there in time. If you have to go several jumps to get to the attacked system, you are not doing it right.
In the time it takes a response ship to arrive on grid the trollceptor will be most of the way off the grid and moving at ludicrous speed. Anyone caught in a trollceptor got caught because they are terrible at EVE.

They do not know if something is coming if there are people already in the systems. If neutrals to them need to come into the system and then do a long warp in the first place, it's no wonder that the ceptor pilot has a long advance warning time. As said, you are doing it wrong if this is a problem for you. As for the getting away part, while it can be bothersome, to me it is a won fight if their trolling was stopped before they can cause serious trouble.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.