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Countering Risk Aversion

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Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#161 - 2015-05-03 04:02:21 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:


tl;dr The reason of poor retention is because people below SP wall will always lose, people hate losing, and losing less will not help it one bit.


How long will you keep up with this mantra of an SP wall?

I can't see it's imperative that you can fly all sub-caps to PvP. Perhaps specialise initially into one races T2 frigates, or skill into a bait procurer.

Of course, I think it is quite obvious that almost everyone else in the thread understands that.
Vector Symian
0 Fear
#162 - 2015-05-03 04:05:45 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
1 - 2 weeks of training into a good T1 frig or destroyer that has a good fit can get you a long way in EVE.

Example: Griffin + knowing how to range tank + good small gang to roll with + having deep tacticals to warp off to + maybe a mobile depot with repair equipment.

Teaching newbies is far more important and more effort than whining about skill points.


I underlined the SP wall leaping mechanics used, which proves my point that without it SP wall will smash your face.

And yes, exactly due to believing in crap like this, those Griffins end up on the green side of my alliance's killboard on practically daily basis.



I understand your point I have been in a couple of close calls that if I had had a little more sp..well ect ect

but the balancer is always confidence and surprise...you can take down a foe if you lucky no matter your sp
Jenshae Chiroptera
#163 - 2015-05-03 04:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
1 - 2 weeks of training into a good T1 frig or destroyer that has a good fit can get you a long way in EVE.
Example: Griffin + knowing how to range tank + good small gang to roll with + having deep tacticals to warp off to + maybe a mobile depot with repair equipment.
Teaching newbies is far more important and more effort than whining about skill points.
I underlined the SP wall leaping mechanics used, which proves my point that without it SP wall will smash your face.
And yes, exactly due to believing in crap like this, those Griffins end up on the green side of my alliance's killboard on practically daily basis.
I do not advocate solo playing EVE because the mechanics keep making this more and more disadvantagious and it always felt like rock-paper-scissors.
10-15 vs 10-15 is the sweet spot to really learn and feel your impact in a group.

That "SP wall" helps to filter out the WoW refugees who will become giant whiners sooner. P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2015-05-03 04:09:44 UTC
Goonswarm has had this for years.

That's why we're better than all of you.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#165 - 2015-05-03 04:11:01 UTC
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
How long will you keep up with this mantra of an SP wall?

As long as it remains to be the truth.

Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
I can't see it's imperative that you can fly all sub-caps to PvP. Perhaps specialise initially into one races T2 frigates, or skill into a bait procurer.

The ability to fly what counters enemy fleet is crucial. Otherwise you lose, and you can only blame that loss on lack of SP to fly whatever counters what enemy brought, which once again shows quite clearly why SP is the strongest force multiplier.

Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
Of course, I think it is quite obvious that almost everyone else in the thread understands that.

As it should be. Now the final step is overcoming the unwillingness to admit it.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Vector Symian
0 Fear
#166 - 2015-05-03 04:11:27 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Goonswarm has had this for years.

That's why we're better than all of you.



Mindless cheating isn't playing FRED!

Blink
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#167 - 2015-05-03 04:15:43 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I do not advocate solo playing EVE because the mechanics keep making this more and more disadvantagious and it always felt like rock-paper-scissors.
10-15 vs 10-15 is the sweet spot to really learn and feel your impact in a group.

That "SP wall" helps to filter out the WoW refugees who will become giant whiners sooner. P


I could never understand the problem with whiners. When no other option but whining are available, it's wrong to expect people to dance. They will whine as they should, because there is nothing else they can do, except getting +5's, holing up in station, setting up 350 days training queue and revisiting once in a few months to correct it, until SP wall is crossed and finally there will be something they can do.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#168 - 2015-05-03 04:22:33 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
Learning and getting better in eve for the first 5-6 years is done by a training queue ONLY.

You can become content if you log in and do stuff that involves risk, so you will learn new tricks, for which you need another year of skill queue. P

Fixed it for you.

You may proceed with ad hominem as much as you want. No matter how many people are mistaken, it won't make the wrong right, it won't make eve combat pvp accessible to less than 50 million SP toons (without use of SP wall leaping mechanics such as being extra weight or juicy bait in a fleet), it won't make success in such activity anything more than a mere exception of the harsh and undeniable general rule. Of course you all know it, just don't want to admit it, and take it out on people who can. Well, not like I really mind, it's just too funny to see so many supposedly adult people being so childish at something so trivial, like little kids throwing abuse at anyone who denies existence of Santa.

You can become better by learning the ropes, of course, but compared to force multiplication of Skill Points, it's just a drop in a sea. Every step you make can be trivially countered by having more SP, and as long as it is so, SP will remain the cornerstone, the strongest force multiplier, and the absolute wall denying any attempt of successful combat pvp (without use of SP wall leaping mechanics such as being extra weight or juicy bait in a fleet) to any younger toon. And of course, since everyone keeps progressing, the wall will get taller every year, we're lucky we only need 50-70 million SP now, because in a year the wall will probably add another 10 million your competition has gained, and the newbros will be screwed even harder than they are now.

The problem with eve combat pvp is not risk aversion, it's SP wall more than anything else. As long as you lack the SP wall leaping mechanic access, you WILL lose, and since your loss will be certain, it's not a matter of risk-reward equation - there is no risk and no reward in hitting your face against the SP wall, so it should not be surprising that people who don't want to become content won't do it - just because they gain NOTHING by it. 95% insurance, 99% insurance, 99.9% insurance won't solve it, as it's still a loss, and every time you taste it, it's like "haha noob below SP wall trying to pvp lol what a fool" feeling - exactly the one which puts a donkey donger on the dinner plate of player retention. Because why play if you will never (a few years are as good as ever for a typical gamer) win?

Bash this idea all you want, but winning is crucial for player retention, and in eve, it's the double miracle class exception to the iron rule to beat someone over SP wall with a toon below it. Many can certainly say that happened to them and that's because they stayed, which will not only prove the point about winning, but also will show exactly why the retention is so terrible that only people with double miracle class luck can stay, because those are your chances for "winning".

tl;dr The reason of poor retention is because people below SP wall will always lose, people hate losing, and losing less will not help it one bit.




The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.

A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship.

The same can be said for any other level of PVP, there are only so many SP that can be used in frigate fights and the several million SP that my toon has in the different cruiser+ ships and weapons doesn't do **** for him when I decide to fly in a assault frig.

The only thing that having more SP means is that the person has more options. My toon has about 64.4 million SP, almost all of that focusing on sub-cap PVP, to the point where i can fly almost every single sub-cap from frigs to BS. I am currently working on finishing the last 2 BS to lvl 5 and contemplating getting the BC skills to 5 (have no command skills so the command BC are a long way off) but I have NO skills in flying capital class ships. That was a choice I made when it came to skilling my toon. I made the choice to focus on sub-cap flying, and that has given me a wide amount of choice in what ships I can fly, but anyone could quickly get to the same skill as me flying any 1 type of ship for any 1 type of race (or even pass me) if they dedicate to flying that race/ship-type.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#169 - 2015-05-03 04:28:02 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#170 - 2015-05-03 04:34:42 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.

The amount of combinations will be your strength and enemy's weakness. As long as you're ready to field whatever beats them and they specialize in one ship, you will always win no matter which ship they specialize.

Kashadin wrote:
A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship.

In that case 100mil SP toon self-destructed by allowing that fight. Self-destruction by not using your SP is the result of the decision to not use the SP, and I will not consider that a victory for 2 mil SP toon.

Kashadin wrote:
The same can be said for any other level of PVP, there are only so many SP that can be used in frigate fights and the several million SP that my toon has in the different cruiser+ ships and weapons doesn't do **** for him when I decide to fly in a assault frig.

Unless you have all that frigate SP (which is more than people tend to think), you will lose to someone who has it, just by being in a worse ship, even if your fits are identical.
If enemy has that cruiser SP and fields a cruiser, you lose because you didn't have SP to field a cruiser with equal performance.
If someone gone against common sense and didn't use his SP for a brainfarty reason, it's his self-destruction, not your victory.

Kashadin wrote:
The only thing that having more SP means is that the person has more options. My toon has about 64.4 million SP, almost all of that focusing on sub-cap PVP, to the point where i can fly almost every single sub-cap from frigs to BS. I am currently working on finishing the last 2 BS to lvl 5 and contemplating getting the BC skills to 5 (have no command skills so the command BC are a long way off) but I have NO skills in flying capital class ships. That was a choice I made when it came to skilling my toon. I made the choice to focus on sub-cap flying, and that has given me a wide amount of choice in what ships I can fly, but anyone could quickly get to the same skill as me flying any 1 type of ship for any 1 type of race (or even pass me) if they dedicate to flying that race/ship-type.

...and they'll be squashed when you pick a ship which squashes their 1 type of ship. Because you had SP for it and they didn't.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
Something Really Pretentious
#171 - 2015-05-03 04:57:22 UTC
One thing I have noticed throughout this thread is few, if any, mention skill. I don't mean SP, I mean skill. Skill as a pilot is as much, if not more, important than sp. You can have a bil sp all in combat and someone with a few mil sp that's a better pilot can beat you. Skill and experience are a lot more valuable than SP. SP just dictates what you can use...not how well you can use it.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Jenshae Chiroptera
#172 - 2015-05-03 05:02:08 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
One thing I have noticed throughout this thread is few, if any, mention skill. I don't mean SP, I mean skill. Skill as a pilot is as much, if not more, important than sp. You can have a bil sp all in combat and someone with a few mil sp that's a better pilot can beat you. Skill and experience are a lot more valuable than SP. SP just dictates what you can use...not how well you can use it.
Indeed.
If I could pick one super power in EVE; it would be to convince people that SP is not important and PVP can be fun and effective with very little of it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Vector Symian
0 Fear
#173 - 2015-05-03 05:04:47 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
One thing I have noticed throughout this thread is few, if any, mention skill. I don't mean SP, I mean skill. Skill as a pilot is as much, if not more, important than sp. You can have a bil sp all in combat and someone with a few mil sp that's a better pilot can beat you. Skill and experience are a lot more valuable than SP. SP just dictates what you can use...not how well you can use it.


COugh HAIL HYDRA! coUgh Cough!!

let just sit down and shoot each other..it more fun if we don't over analyse it Cool
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#174 - 2015-05-03 05:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Basil Pupkin wrote:


Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
I can't see it's imperative that you can fly all sub-caps to PvP. Perhaps specialise initially into one races T2 frigates, or skill into a bait procurer.

The ability to fly what counters enemy fleet is crucial. Otherwise you lose, and you can only blame that loss on lack of SP to fly whatever counters what enemy brought, which once again shows quite clearly why SP is the strongest force multiplier.


Yeah, because actual skill and creativity does not matter at all. Look... back in the days when I had a moderate amount of SP and not nearly enough for what I wanted to do, I, like any other "carebear", flew a Drake. For a long time, that's the only thing that I could fly and it seemed that I was useless for my corp in any situation that didn't require a tanked brick to play as a bait.

However, I've stepped out of the "not enough SP to be useful" mentality, fired up EFT and did some research. With practice, not skill training since I was training for a freighter at that time since my corp needed one, so only with practice of what I already had I did with that Drake things that others couldn't imagine.

I clearly remember a 1 vs 1 fight against a nano Hurricane in a HAM Drake. For most players that might seem like a lost fight from the beginning since I couldn't possibly counter the seemingly fastest battlecruiser with a ship generally used for bait and by newbs who just stepped out of PvE (like I was at that time). Well, wrong. After the fight was over and Hurricane pilot suddenly realized that he can't outrun my speed modified Drake, he only typed one thing in local: "Well [curse word omitted]."

SP haven't won that fight for me, because at that point I didn't even have BC on 5 and my support skills were not complete including the speed and capacitor skills. Thinking outside of the box and knowing the capabilities of the only ship I could fly in PvP won me the fight.

Did I have a right ship to counter nano Hurricane? It would seem like I didn't to the most of other players.

Did I have "enough" SP to fly it to the max? Absolutely not.

Did the Hurricane pilot thought after the fight that he needs more SP or that he didn't have the right ship for killing a Drake? Most likely not, because my Drake did something unexpected by a vast majority of Hurricane pilots.

And that was only one fight posted here as a perfect example. I've been in many more seemingly insane situations with my Drake and turned out victorious, even in 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 fights. But I also lost in a lot of situations, which made me smarter, more experienced and more familiar on what my Drake can do.

The bottom line is, sitting in front of EFT and just theory crafting without practice combined with a mental barrier of "not having enough SP" is not going to lead anywhere else except to the forum posting. Because "not having enough SP" is only that - a mental barrier.

And, just a friendly reminder: I'm not attacking you or anyone else with the same mentality, because I was like that myself. I'm just trying to show you that you can do so much more and have much more fun in this game with what you already have. Smile

Don't fly safe .... fly smart. Blink
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#175 - 2015-05-03 06:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:


tl;dr The reason of poor retention is because people below SP wall will always lose, people hate losing, and losing less will not help it one bit.


While SP can be a contributing factor to the outcome of PvP it is not the only factor. If a high SP pilot shows up in a long range fit and goes up against a low SP pilot who is fit for close range and gets in under his guns...the result is not a forgone conclusion based on SP. There are a number of variables at play in determining the outcome of PvP...of which SP is one variable. To heap all explanatory power on just the one variable is foolish.


Then it's good I haven't done something foolish, which you would've known, if you could read the post before tl;dr

It properly explains why SP is the strongest factor, the strongest force multiplier of all - because even in your example, knowing that a long range ship will lose a brawl and stashing a brawling ship in case enemy will get a brawling ship is common sense - as long as both are in brawling ships, 1 million SP toon will be lucky to last 10 seconds against a 100 million SP toon, demonstrating to everybody and his dog quite clearly what was the winning factor there.

In case of double miracle of higher SP toon having a brain fart and going against common sense, I won't count it as the victory of the low SP toon - going against common sense is the same as self-destruction and the only role a low-sp toon had in it is happening to be there when it happened. This is pure luck, and if wins by pure luck can satisfy you, you might as well go play craps.



So...you were lying in your tl;dr?

But wait, you say that SP is the strongest factor...so you aren't heaping all explanatory power on one variable...just most of it. And you finish that second paragraph by saying pretty much that only SP matter.

Your third paragraph says that when a lower SP character wins...its just dumb luck and doesn't count.

Whatever. Seems your tl;dr was fairly accurate and you are being rather foolish.

Care to paint yourself into another corner?

Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2015-05-03 08:25:05 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
One thing I have noticed throughout this thread is few, If any, mention skill. I don't mean SP, I mean skill. Skill as a pilot is as much, if not more, important than sp. You can have a bil sp all in combat and someone with a few mil sp that's a better pilot can beat you. Skill and experience are a lot more valuable than SP. SP just dictates what you can use...not how well you can use it.


If you and I are in a cruiser 1v1 and you have more skills to V than I do in applicable categories, each one is making your ship 2,3, or even 5% better than mine in multiple areas. If you contend that doesn't matter, you are either not thinking or have some need to believe that all your victories are due to pilot skill.

Let's pretend for a moment that neither one of us is ******** enough to jump into an engagement where one ship is outright countered by the other. Yes, if my blaster brawl deimos lands 25k off your kitey stabber at a belt, I'm in for a slow and painful death assuming you don't utterly fail at flying and allow me to land a scram. Doesn't matter that I have a "better" ship or even if I have SP advantages giving my ship technically superior performance. You've got my hard counter and I'm dead. Just like if an active tanked blaster boat decides to attack a neut buffer drone boat, or a 10m SP brawler incursus warps into a plex on a 1m SP kite condor sitting 20k off.

When people talk about SP being an issue, they're assuming a situation where neither pilots' ship hard counters the other or they even have the same ship, because a smart pilot isn't going to engage your t1 rock with his t2 scissors.

We're talking about close fights here. If I see a tristan on scan at a plex and I warp in with my own tristan and we've got similar fits and know how to fly them, then one of us having surgical strike V and drone interfacing V and the other not, is very likely to be the deciding factor. Likewise if I take out my VNI and get into a scrap with another VNI who has cruisers 5 to my 4, he's got a 10% DPS advantage right off the bat.

Likewise, if I get wardecced by someone who can fly any subcap almost perfectly while I'm limited to Gallente boats; that's putting me at a severe disadvantage. SP has a very real impact on ship performance and fitting/hull choice options.

I do not for the life of me understand people who say it doesn't matter. Even if you train a specific frigate with +4s it's going to be ~3 months before you can take that frig against a *a pilot who isn't a moron* in the same ship. The fact that I can go sit underneath the large rails of a 100M SP mission bear in his navy mega and murder him with a 10M SP Ishkur does not prove SP irrelevant. It proves the navy mega pilot a ******.

This wasn't just a response to a single person. I'm tired of the "SP doesn't matter" bittervets who have tons spread out over multiple toons basing their argument on a hypothetical matchup between the 5M SP alt of a dedicated combat player and the 100M sp main of a miner who hasn't fired those large rails at anything besides red crosses, ever.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2015-05-03 09:02:41 UTC
Demerius, I'd say that what wins fights in EVE is, in order of importance:

1. The pre-fight preparation. This is includes many things: ship/fit selection, pre-fight warping and maneuvering to fight where you want (at a gate, in a plex, in deadspace or in normal warpable space, ...) and at the starting range you prefer, psychological warfare to get your opponent mad or overconfident, etc.

2. Number of ships

3. Piloting during the fight

4. SP


Sure we all agree that if you assume 1,2 and 3 are equal (similar ships flown by competent pilots that just warp to the sun at zero and duke it out in a 1v1), then SP will indeed make a difference. But that's kinda obvious, isn't it?


People insist that SP doesn't matter that much because they want to encourage newbie PVPers to learn the 'soft-skills' of PVP, preparation (1) and piloting (3), instead of feeling they won't stand a chance because of numbers or SP (which are 'hard' numerical values that are easy to grasp, but that by no means tell the whole story).

Constantly reminding new PVPers that it's not all about SP is a good thing and helps make better pilots. People don't need to be reminded that +10% dmg is an advantage, they can easily understand that on their own.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#178 - 2015-05-03 09:12:17 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause...

Ship replacement insurance.

Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback.

F


IMHO the best way to avoid risk is to suicide an entire Dread fleet rather than make a capital raom....but thats just me.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Solecist Project
#179 - 2015-05-03 09:13:30 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
One thing I have noticed throughout this thread is few, if any, mention skill. I don't mean SP, I mean skill. Skill as a pilot is as much, if not more, important than sp. You can have a bil sp all in combat and someone with a few mil sp that's a better pilot can beat you. Skill and experience are a lot more valuable than SP. SP just dictates what you can use...not how well you can use it.
Now take a good guess why people leave it out ...
... and instead blame everything else. :)

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kamala
Doomheim
#180 - 2015-05-03 09:14:34 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.

A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship.


rofl

That same old argument: "B-but an industrialist with more SP will lose to a focused low SP combat pilot"

Roll

How about making a fair comparison, two PvP combat pilots, one with 100 mil SP, the other with 2 mil. Result: barring a miracle, the 2 mil pilot is taking a trip to the clone bay.