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Countering Risk Aversion

First post
Author
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-04-30 14:12:54 UTC
I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause...

Ship replacement insurance.

Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback.

F
Jenshae Chiroptera
#2 - 2015-04-30 14:14:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Not clicking your blog, thanks.

As to risk aversion, I think new players should start in a Null Sec system with a SISI market for 12 hours. Then get transfered to the main server.

Thread summary so far:

- People aren't welping into a planned fleet.
- Sometimes the enemies are too small and just a hassle, so docking up happens and they are ignored.
- A few people feel that skill points create a barrier to being able to PVP.
- Knowing how to fly a good fit on a ship well is far better than a lot of random stuff such as a battleship with T1 modules and a fail fit.
- Whining that people do not fight simply because you appeared with your friends.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Syrilian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-04-30 14:17:24 UTC
The problem with the "risk aversion" argument is that everyone has a different opinion of what that means. Some people think a person is risk averse when they dont have a death wish.
Mario Putzo
#4 - 2015-04-30 14:17:42 UTC
Didn't your last thread get locked?

Ship insurance is fine, it is not why people don't engage in PVP. Fun fact some folks just don't want to PVP.

IBTL.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#5 - 2015-04-30 14:18:56 UTC
eveo says your link might be hackers or malware :( this blogspot website sounds insidious

if only you'd posted what you had to say here instead of there
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#6 - 2015-04-30 14:23:03 UTC
Syrilian wrote:
The problem with the "risk aversion" argument is that everyone has a different opinion of what that means. Some people think a person is risk averse when they dont have a death wish.

I think its pretty clear as a generalization. Risk aversion when it comes to pvp in EvE is how someone generally (or doesn't) take a fight, when said fight is not assured victory ahead of time.

Its that point where you might win, or you might lose, but you decide to stay docked rather than give it a go.

Hope that helps.
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#7 - 2015-04-30 14:25:17 UTC
Sorry, Im not following what the problem is.

Care to elaborate as to WHY people not wanting to fight is a problem?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#8 - 2015-04-30 14:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Mario Putzo wrote:


Ship insurance is fine, it is not why people don't engage in PVP. Fun fact some folks just don't want to PVP.

Wrong. As described in the post, Brave Newbies didn't undock with 250+ friendlies in system and only 15 enemy dudes on their undock for 3 hours, until they had an FC who could authorize SRP come on and give a thumbs up.

I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause.

F
Mario Putzo
#9 - 2015-04-30 14:43:34 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Ship insurance is fine, it is not why people don't engage in PVP. Fun fact some folks just don't want to PVP.

Wrong. As described in the post, Brave Newbies didn't undock with 250+ friendlies in system and only 15 enemy dudes on their undock for 3 hours, until they had an FC who could authorize SRP come on and give a thumbs up.

I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause.

F


Which varies wildly depending on your organization.

Remember when a group of Super Carriers and a Revenant showed up to help a guy, but it was a Black Legion set up, and they all got dunked and Garth raged over comes, stating "Every single one of the dumb motherfuckers should be booted from alliance" Or the KB must be green folks (of which many many exist) who purge active players for losing their ****?

Or the "We either Blue Ball them, or Hyperdunk them" schtick from the CFC when BL. and NC. were pushing buttons in Fountain just recently?

There are LOTS of reasons people do not engage in PVP.

As someone who does like to PVP, the largest reason I do not, I live in HS and can't be assed to fly dozens of jumps to look for fights, so I don't very often. Now if CCP made PVP more available in HS, and didn't hide it behind a wall of War Decs, or make Ganking the only form of "PVP" in HS elsewise, more people might grow into being more active in PVP.

As it stands Ship Insurance is like bottom of the barrel stuff. SRP is the problem here, not ship insurance. Which to me sounds like Alliance incomes need to be brought way down, so they can't have SRP programs, as it creates an illusion of dependency.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#10 - 2015-04-30 14:44:01 UTC
If ship insurance was realistic, it would be based on how many ships you personally lost and "claimed" on. Insurance companies make money.

In eve insurance is magic pixe money. I don't even bother insuring my ships most of the time. And making the game like every other MMO out there where death has no sting at all is just SOOO boring. If that is what you want. Play on the test server.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-04-30 14:44:50 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause...

Ship replacement insurance.

Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback.

F


When someone says there's an elephant in the room, I expect to see an elephant.

PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#12 - 2015-04-30 15:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
The way to counter risk aversion is to make everyone as stupid as the people who have convinced themselves they are not risk averse. In a way, this vapid culture of ours is doing it incrementally over time. However, another way of saying "risk averse" is "dumb as a rock."

I love how these mental giants come along and rewrite the history of humankind to suit their rather discombobulated
ego trips.

"Countering Risk Aversion" - at first that seems so knowledgeable. Then, just looking at the National Enquirer you get the same sort of confident proclamations: I Married An Alien, How To Lose 500 Pounds In One Day (yeah, divorce your wife.)

Keep 'em comin' though. We love to hear from the peanut gallery.

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Louise Beethoven
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2015-04-30 15:05:29 UTC
Why do you keep spamming your blog
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#14 - 2015-04-30 15:07:01 UTC
Otso Bakarti wrote:
The way to counter risk aversion is to make everyone as stupid as the people who have convinced themselves they are not risk averse. In a way, this vapid culture of ours is doing it incrementally over time. However, another way of saying "risk averse" is "dumb as a rock."

I love how these mental giants come along and rewrite the history of humankind to suit their rather discombobulated
ego trips.

"Countering Risk Aversion" - at first that seems so knowledgeable. Then, just looking at the National Enquirer you get the same sort of confident proclamations: I Married An Alien, How To Lose 500 Pounds In One Day (yeah, divorce your wife.)

Keep 'em comin' though. We love to hear from the peanut gallery.

npc forum alts dont get to use plural.

post with your main if your going to put words in anyone's mouth
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-04-30 15:09:07 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is that we regularly decry risk-aversion and others unwillingness to undock and bring a fight, while on the other hand refusing to confront the elephant in the room when it comes to root cause...

Ship replacement insurance.

Please consider this, and provide constructive feedback.

F


When someone says there's an elephant in the room, I expect to see an elephant.

PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!


This one was about to go on a roam of many many systems jump where PvP happens at the risk of losing his ship when THIS happened. Turns out he was more interested in that than potentially losing his ship for unknown results.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-04-30 15:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
The problem is, you should never be happy to lose your ship, and cranking the protection too far can create silly situations where people suicide ships rather than spend half an hour gating them back home. Yes, I imagine some people take it too far, but I also imagine that at the fringe, its less a case of not wanting to lose a ship, its not wanting to lose. Undocking in to a 100% certain defeat is pointless and not fun for anyone, regardless of what cost or not is involved. In other games I have seen people go afk waiting for a battleground to finish because they were being mercilessly farmed, and there was no fun in being fodder for some sugared-up circle jumper - there was no cost to their losses, but they still elected not to fight because it had stopped being fun to do so.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Wrong. As described in the post, Brave Newbies didn't undock with 250+ friendlies in system and only 15 enemy dudes on their undock for 3 hours, until they had an FC who could authorize SRP come on and give a thumbs up.

I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause.

Your example is of lower-skilled newbies not wanting to undock without an FC in to a high-skilled fleet with a talented FC in a tightly specialised comp. It had nothing to do with SRP, they just didn't want to get mown down by a clearly superior fighting force. There is no coincidence here that your alliance flys bubble immune sniper T3's instead of a slow-moving or brawling set-up, its because you don't want to lose ships either.

Everyone is to blame for this. People who lose want to stop losing. So they evolve their strategy to combat that. Tighter comps, rules of engagement to cut down on pointless welps, forming larger organisations and stronger ties to allies. Each time one side gets their ass repeatedly handed to them, they either collapse and are absorbed by stronger groups, or go away, review their tactics and doctrines, and come back tougher, so the other side in turn has to do the same. I'm not sure there is a cure to it, because the guy who steps back in the arms race is the guy who gets farmed, and has no fun doing so.
Solecist Project
#17 - 2015-04-30 15:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
This reminds me of politicians.

Taking a superficial part of the problem ...
... declaring it the problem ...
... thus having superficial discussions ...
... bringing up at best superficial solutions which do not touch the actual problem ...
... and then wondering why it doesn't help.


Superficial thinking leads to superficial discussions and superficial solutions.


Good luck anyhow.


Oh and, tbh, you know what else?

This is carebearlogic.


Congratulations.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-04-30 15:15:19 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:

...
Your example is of lower-skilled newbies not wanting to undock without an FC in to a high-skilled fleet with a talented FC in a tightly specialised comp. It had nothing to do with SRP, they just didn't want to get mown down by a clearly superior fighting force. ...

Strange...That's not what the two Brave Newbies that were so disgusted with their brethren told us, when they joined our fleet and comms and raged about how their buds were so risk adverse and unwilling to fight until they had SRP confirmed first.... :)

Hell, one of our richer dudes even offered to do the SRP for them... lolzors.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#19 - 2015-04-30 15:16:39 UTC
Someone should write a followup titled, "Countering misunderstandings about preferences, and how they work."

You're trying to "fix" a preference, which simply does not work. Go find someone who doesn't like cilantro and try to logic-and-reason them into thinking cilantro is amazing stuff.

When you realize where you've erred, come back and delete your post.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Jenshae Chiroptera
#20 - 2015-04-30 15:25:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I am also specifically talking to those that DO pvp, that within that sub-community there is angst over risk aversion, yet no one confronts the root cause.
F
It is not ISK.
I could take a gang of T1 frigates and destroyers out every night and personally SRP all of them. I could get them to undock to fight every tourist that comes our way.

I do not find that type of gang fun enough to do more than in a blue moon.

I go about making ISK, join a few fleet but really keep my eye out for CTAs and Strat Ops.
Other than that I avoid PVP, it is too much hassle when it doesn't matter.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

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