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Countering Risk Aversion

First post
Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2015-05-03 09:33:53 UTC
Kamala wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.

A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship.


rofl

That same old argument: "B-but an industrialist with more SP will lose to a focused low SP combat pilot"

Roll

How about making a fair comparison, two PvP combat pilots, one with 100 mil SP, the other with 2 mil. Result: barring a miracle, the 2 mil pilot is taking a trip to the clone bay.
The deep PVP insight that you provided with this post makes me think that you are, in fact, posting with your main.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Anuri Suaraj
The Cylar Foundation
#182 - 2015-05-03 09:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Anuri Suaraj
As a new player I really can't say that I've ran into an "SP wall" yet.

I do exploration in a T1 frig mostly and I've been dodging other players just as easily now with 1 mil SP as I had with 500k.

I see skills in EVE more like pathways that give you more options, more stuff you can do. And sure, the more you train those skills the better you can do them too but that's just a little thing called specialization and it's there to make sure that guy who invested the time to train all the drone skills to max has better drone stats than someone who had just trained them a little bit as an auxiliary to his primary skills.

So the claim of "If I have Skill A at 4, and use it as my primary combat skill and I run into a guy that has that same skill at 5 and is using it as his primary combat skill then I'm kind of fraked..."

Well no sh*t Sherlock. My advice: Run away and go get a ship where you use skill B and have it at 5.

On an unrelated note, here's a joke:

Two brain surgeons walk into a bar. One has been a brain surgeon for over decade and the other has just started his residency.
And guess what, there's a good chance that the guy with more training and experience does brain surgery slightly better than the new guy... Padam-pa.

As for the topic of "risk aversion". Well, let's just say I'm a pro at that.

Why don't I PvP? Not because of risk aversion but because to me EVE's combat system is about as immersive and interesting as watching paint dry...

You basically manage some of the more basic functions whilst point and clicking at you foe. And then you wait for server to dish out some 2nd grade math so that you can find out whether you won or lost.

I have no problems with the slow passive shield regeneration but those active regens, armor and hull repairers should be removed in their entirety IMHO.

And also, the SP multipliers are a bit too high in some combat skills like Drone Interfacing for example.

And CCP should really think about giving combatants more stuff to do in combat...

I better leave now before some vet rolls in with a "You know nothing newb! EVE's combat system is the coolest and EVE is deepest game ever..."

Gracias.
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#183 - 2015-05-03 09:49:23 UTC
Kamala wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
The problem with this argument is that you can't bring to bear every SP that your character has available to them in every single fight.

A toon who has 100mill SP but has all those put into mining and production will lose to someone who only has 2mill SP that are dedicated to flying a combat ship if those players were to fight (at a purely SP based combat scenario) because while the 100mill SP toon out-classes the 2mill SP one in age and SP, those SP are doing nothing when it comes to that toon shooting a gun or flying a ship.


rofl

That same old argument: "B-but an industrialist with more SP will lose to a focused low SP combat pilot"

Roll

How about making a fair comparison, two PvP combat pilots, one with 100 mil SP, the other with 2 mil. Result: barring a miracle, the 2 mil pilot is taking a trip to the clone bay.



It depends on the scale of the PVP we are talking about.

Are we talking about 2 people in FW going at each other in pirate/faction frigs? Or are we talking about people going at each other in WH space with T3s? Are we going to talk about the guy who is out looking for PVP and wanting to fight ships larger than them and sets up a ship that is made to speed/sig tank a higher classes of ships guns? Hell, are we talking about 1v1s, small fleet, or blobs? As the number of ships go up the difference in hard skills becomes less of a factor, since other pilots can make up the difference if any was there in the first place.


Besides, what would you want them to do to change the way the skill system works? Let people pay to get skills or train faster? Give you SP based on using the ability??

The 1st option is just pay-to-win and the 2nd option would need to back-log a older characters usage to be fair and then the gap between old and new toons would be even larger than it is now.


At the end of the day the difference in the pilots ability to make a PVP fight go in that pilots favor is going to mean a lot more than the number of SP that each pilot has.
Kamala
Doomheim
#184 - 2015-05-03 09:56:07 UTC
Anuri Suaraj wrote:
As a new player I really can't say that I've ran into an "SP wall" yet.

I do exploration in a T1 frig mostly and I've been dodging other players just as easily now with 1 mil SP as I had with 500k.


The so-called SP wall will affect you in three ways:

In a 1v1 scenario
Corp recruitment
Access to and/or efficiency in high level content

It's easy to evade vet PvPers as a newb explorer, but you're not comparing like with like.
Kamala
Doomheim
#185 - 2015-05-03 10:09:22 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
It depends on the scale of the PVP we are talking about.

Are we talking about 2 people in FW going at each other in pirate/faction frigs? Or are we talking about people going at each other in WH space with T3s? Are we going to talk about the guy who is out looking for PVP and wanting to fight ships larger than them and sets up a ship that is made to speed/sig tank a higher classes of ships guns? Hell, are we talking about 1v1s, small fleet, or blobs? As the number of ships go up the difference in hard skills becomes less of a factor, since other pilots can make up the difference if any was there in the first place.


Whataboutery.

Two people flying ships of the same class, one with 100 mil SP and the other with 5 mil, it is clear who has the paper advantage. And I'm talking about PvP pilots, not miner vs PvPer.

Kashadin wrote:
Besides, what would you want them to do to change the way the skill system works? Let people pay to get skills or train faster? Give you SP based on using the ability??


Actually I quite like the skill system. It beats grinding. But it does create the inescapable fact that newer players can never catch up with older players. I don't know if this puts off new players, it didn't bother me much tbh.
Anuri Suaraj
The Cylar Foundation
#186 - 2015-05-03 10:11:38 UTC
Yeah, I have to say while I disagree with the guys screaming "SP wall", I also disagree with the guys that are trying to downplay SP with "aww, 10mil SP guy will lose to a 2mil guy assuming the 10mil guy is a tard and the 2mil guy is a pro..."

Well, dah.

You have to take players of comparative skill but different SP levels to see how much of an influence SP really has.

And like I said earlier, while a few skills do require some looking into because their force multipliers multiply a bit too hard, most of them are fine.

For example I have Drones up to 5, Light Drones 4 and Drone Interfacing 3 so my total drone DPS is around 80-ish.

So if I run into another Drone boat that has all those skills at 5, than I will probably lose.

But I can just as easily get killed by a Rail fit Cormorant with super low skills or get out DPS-ed by an Autocannon Thrasher if I let him get close enough.

My point being, while SP is obviously important, there is no freaking wall.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2015-05-03 10:24:59 UTC
Anuri Suaraj wrote:
You have to take players of comparative skill but different SP levels to see how much of an influence SP really has.
Hmm no.

To see exactly how much influence SP really has, playing with EFT is enough.

But to understand what can happen in EVE when a low-SP player meets a high-SP player, you have to learn and practice EVE PVP, a step that many of the posters ITT have quite obviously skipped.

I agree that EVE combat isn't immediately immersive, but I think you should refrain from discussing it if - as you say - you have decided to avoid it.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Solecist Project
#188 - 2015-05-03 10:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kamala wrote:
Actually I quite like the skill system. It beats grinding. But it does create the inescapable fact that newer players can never catch up with older players. I don't know if this puts off new players, it didn't bother me much tbh.

Except when they reach [racial] frigate V.
Small blasters V.
Small blaster spec V.

etc. etc.

I don't understand how people can be so completely disconnected from reality.
Do you run around, complaining that children have it unfair compared to adults?

It's how the world works. When you start doing something,
you do not know how to do it well until you get better.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#189 - 2015-05-03 11:19:42 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Jenshae Chiroptera
#190 - 2015-05-03 11:23:15 UTC
Here is a problem that exists right now.

The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship.
Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Solecist Project
#191 - 2015-05-03 11:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Here is a problem that exists right now.

The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship.
Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that.

That's not the fault of game mechanics.
It's the fault of the griefers who tell noobs to skill for them ...
... so they can run lvl4s ASAP.

Social engineering ... not game mechanics.


Buuut I guess this crap can be at least partly dealt with ...
... by raising the bar considerably.

Or putting up proper restrictions for lower level missions.
Noobs running lvl3s in battlecruiser just so they can farm them ...
... because of griefers telling them ... that's nuts as well.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2015-05-03 11:56:59 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Here is a problem that exists right now.

The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship.
Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that.
What do battleship SP requirements have to do with that???

The simple rule 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is everywhere.

If someone breaks it, and loses everything, there's really nothing anyone could've done to help the silly fellow.

If you take that lightly a game that is well-known to be hard and harsh, you would just as easily stick a C-Type invuln to your missioning destroyer, with the same result. FYI, it requires less SP than flying a BS.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

El Taron
Doomheim
#193 - 2015-05-03 13:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: El Taron
I don't understand why some people don't get that you can have a successful pvp career just flying frigs (and T2 variants)/destroyers and cruisers.

They don't require much sp, they're extremely disposable and still very effective. Infact with how long bigger ships take to warp around and the general community's unwillingness to engage in decent fights, I rarely use anything else.

There is clearly people in this thread who haven't participated in a lot of pvp where decision making counts for much.

This topic has gone well off topic though thanks to someone who is completely wrong about how big a factor SP is, it was about how risk averse the community has become and how hard it is to get fights.
Solecist Project
#194 - 2015-05-03 13:46:33 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Here is a problem that exists right now.

The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship.
Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that.
What do battleship SP requirements have to do with that???

The simple rule 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is everywhere.

If someone breaks it, and loses everything, there's really nothing anyone could've done to help the silly fellow.

If you take that lightly a game that is well-known to be hard and harsh, you would just as easily stick a C-Type invuln to your missioning destroyer, with the same result. FYI, it requires less SP than flying a BS.

Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly.

There can't be that many reasons for people to do so.
Whatever they think, though, someone has to reinforce that wrong belief one way or the other.
And there we reach the griefers who tell new players to head straight to battleships and do lvl4s.

New players like will most likely not even know about "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" ...
... simply again because the griefers aren't telling them.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Solecist Project
#195 - 2015-05-03 13:47:46 UTC
El Taron wrote:
I don't understand why some people don't get that you can have a successful pvp career just flying frigs (and T2 variants)/destroyers and cruisers.

They don't require much sp, they're extremely disposable and still very effective. Infact with how long bigger ships take to warp around and the general community's unwillingness to engage in decent fights, I rarely use anything else.

There is clearly people in this thread who haven't participated in a lot of pvp where decision making counts for much.

This topic has gone well off topic though thanks to someone who is completely wrong about how big a factor SP is, it was about how risk averse the community has become and how hard it is to get fights.

I know right?

Ferni has killed drifters in a venture ...
... yet people everywhere insist "bigger is better" and keep losing.

Even though Ferni can be a hating carebear...
... she deserves credit for that.


Frigates are awesome ...
... people are nuts.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2015-05-03 14:00:39 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly.
I'm no PVE expert but I think that if you're a new player doing missions, doing them in a t1-fit battleship could make sense, especially because of the tank.

When I started almost 2 years ago, I missioned for a couple of weeks. I could manage L3s in cruisers, but when I got to battlecruisers it made things significantly easier. On the other hand, when I started PVPing I immediately went back to frigs.


I did eventually lose 2 BCs to neuting rats (didn't know I had an excellent chance of warping out by spamming warp, even if they were neuting me dry).

I have to admit I definitely raged a bit (especially when I lost the second one in the exact same way LOL I'm dumb), but at the same time it was one of my most intense EVE experiences.

I hate turning new players away, but if the 'losing lots of stuff' part of EVE doesn't appeal to you (after some initial rage), you probably won't enjoy the game so much anyway.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#197 - 2015-05-03 14:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
Solecist Project wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Here is a problem that exists right now.

The skill wall is too low to sit in a battleship.
Newbies train into it with a T1 modules fail fit. Put all their ISK into it and die in this huge ship that should be able to tank in their minds. Quite a few rage quit after losing everything like that.
What do battleship SP requirements have to do with that???

The simple rule 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is everywhere.

If someone breaks it, and loses everything, there's really nothing anyone could've done to help the silly fellow.

If you take that lightly a game that is well-known to be hard and harsh, you would just as easily stick a C-Type invuln to your missioning destroyer, with the same result. FYI, it requires less SP than flying a BS.

Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly.

There can't be that many reasons for people to do so.
Whatever they think, though, someone has to reinforce that wrong belief one way or the other.
And there we reach the griefers who tell new players to head straight to battleships and do lvl4s.

New players like will most likely not even know about "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" ...
... simply again because the griefers aren't telling them.
Let's employ you as the game decision making proctor. It's like the hall monitor, but you get to keep tabs on people making decisions like "What ship should I fly?" or "Now that I own this, how should I tank it?" Keep a list of the people who refuse to obey your divine intervention type "advice" and we'll have them all paddled! Yay! I'll bet everyone will be doing it "right" after a week of THAT!

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Sykaotic
Doomheim
#198 - 2015-05-03 14:05:21 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is...


What I have observed in 0.0, low, and high.... pvp and pve corps, the majority of players just sit in stations the majority of time logged on. Pvpers get just as burned out as pvers. I have seen it on both sides, but at the same time.... while you may see a pver actually undocked for many hours per day, you wont see pvpers undoacked anywhere near the same amount of time.


This is why the most active players ballance pve with pvp, to make isk to pvp with.

But at the end of the day, why are so many people in all secs, sitting in stations for hours a day, not doing anything? Lack of motivation to undock. I believe new content is needed. Has been the same content for many years.



Solecist Project
#199 - 2015-05-03 14:05:48 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly.
I'm no PVE expert but I think that if you're a new player doing missions, doing them in a t1-fit battleship could make sense, especially because of the tank.

When I started almost 2 years ago, I missioned for a couple of weeks. I could manage L3s in cruisers, but when I got to battlecruisers it made things significantly easier. On the other hand, when I started PVPing I immediately went back to frigs.


I did eventually lose 2 BCs to neuting rats (didn't know I had an excellent chance of warping out by spamming warp, even if they were neuting me dry).

I have to admit I definitely raged a bit (especially when I lost the second one in the exact same way LOL I'm dumb), but at the same time it was one of my most intense EVE experiences.

I hate turning new players away, but if the 'losing lots of stuff' part of EVE doesn't appeal to you (after some initial rage), you probably won't enjoy the game so much anyway.

But the issue is that they do not even know what they are doing.
They are given bad advise.

You have to consider that the mind of a new player mostly is an empty glass.

The fact that people tell noobs to head directly to lvl4s is bad.
It does not actually promote the game and people don't see much of it.

The fact that people tell noobs to keep running missions is bad.
CCP confirms that. Social interaction is good, running missions for money all day isn't.


The fact that people go EASYMODE from the early on is bad.
Like ... they are being told to go to battlecruisers for lvl3s.

Why?
Because it's *easy*. Because it's a fast way to make money.

Of course there's no doubt that our PvE is lame as hell ...
... but for a new player it's still better to play something challenging.

All the other games are easy enough already.

It's carebearing griefers who badly influence the early days of new players.


So it's true ... battleships are way too easy to reach ...
... but fixing that would not address the actual problem.


Btw ... do lvl3s in thrashers ...


That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

El Taron
Doomheim
#200 - 2015-05-03 14:13:37 UTC
Sykaotic wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I would like to have a constructive dialog around what can be done to combat risk-aversion in our pvp pilots in New Eden. What I observe is...


What I have observed in 0.0, low, and high.... pvp and pve corps, the majority of players just sit in stations the majority of time logged on. Pvpers get just as burned out as pvers. I have seen it on both sides, but at the same time.... while you may see a pver actually undocked for many hours per day, you wont see pvpers undoacked anywhere near the same amount of time.


This is why the most active players ballance pve with pvp, to make isk to pvp with.

But at the end of the day, why are so many people in all secs, sitting in stations for hours a day, not doing anything? Lack of motivation to undock. I believe new content is needed. Has been the same content for many years.



Virtually every pvper balances some form of PVE with PVP, they have to because unless you are risk averse then you're generally losing money by pvping. Either that or grabbing the credit card.

But I do agree about the motivation to undock, for me it's knowing how hard it is going to be to find any content but if new content gets more people in space and in harms way that can only be good for the game.