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Countering Risk Aversion

First post
Author
Kamala
Doomheim
#121 - 2015-05-02 08:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kamala
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Why do you keep spamming your blog


This.

OP, if you wish us to "please consider" something, then please consider writing it here instead of linking to your blog.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#122 - 2015-05-02 08:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

A: You get $40, for certain.
B: You take a gamble, and you get $100 or $0 with probabilities 0.5/0.5.


Weak example, because there's a correct choice. the gamble.

A risk averse person would take the $40, assuming the probability of the gamble wasn't given. They'd be an idiot to take the $40 otherwise.

A cautious person would devise that the odds were in fact 50/50, and work in an edge if possible to tweak that to something like 55-45 or 60-40, then take the gamble.

An impulsive person would go into the gamble blind.


About 80% of people would take option A. Then there's the 20% who can't assess chances or are impulsive (that is, people with a faulty brain).

Human are wired to eat and live, not to take chances with starvation. It takes a good deal of despair (or a faulty brain) to take chances with survival. That permeates our whole decission making thought processes.

Of course, people with a cultural background as immigrants like to think of their ancestors as brave people who took chances, not as desperate underdogs who took a gamble to avoid certain death. Case in point to avoid ruffling feathers, the Mexica (Aztec) people and their funny explanation on how did they ended in the middle of a partially salty lake in a valley 3,000 meters above the sea.

As Johnathan Swift said: "He was a bold man that first eat an oyster", but we can figure that he was just starving... that would explain too why we eat snails in my neck or the woods, or why rotten shark is "traditional food" in Iceland. Lol

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Anthar Thebess
#123 - 2015-05-02 09:45:22 UTC
First of all , when i started to play eve , we had still working drake.
It was excelent ship for all.
The main and most important "feature" for a drake was that when it died , you loosed around 20-30mil after considering ship insurance.

Now when you want to take a similar "good" ship to a fight you will loose well over 100mil , or even more.

So im not surprised that people are more averse for loosing a ship.

Seccond of all , don't be surprised that people are afraid to undock - when i raid someone i have usually well formed gang - so they will just feed me kills or if they undock better gang i will just go elsewhere
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#124 - 2015-05-02 10:22:18 UTC
Because his blog is well written and he puts forward interesting ideas, even if I do not agree with him on things. Its on my read list.

I think the issue is that many people cannot be bothered to be an execution victim, in other words go for a fight where they do not have a chance to get a kill. One of the reason I no longer operate in NPC 0.0 is that I just got so board of all the people playing perfect execution style BLOP's drops linked to an AFK cloaky camper. That is utterly risk adverse...

Anyway the whole game is full of it because Eve combat is effectively get the drop on someone, and its PvP perfect execution style. Yes I know you can counter it, but if you do they don't drop, yawn...


When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Sulai Battasenda
Liricas Analas
#125 - 2015-05-02 10:27:53 UTC
So, this is a topic about pvp and risk adverse, right ?

Well, me I'm what you all call a pve guy (or worse). But this is EVE, so there is no clean pve playing, we all are forced to pvp one way or another. So this is my pvp playstyle: I avoid pvp as much as i can... (Hence posting on alt - remember, I avoid pvp)
I don't mission in gankers-paradise systems, I fit my ships in a way they don't think it's profitable to attack me, I ignore griefers completely, and I know that doing this I don't contribute to "your" playstyle at all.

There are several reasons i choose to play EVE that way. I'm not a youngster anymore, my reflexes and eye sight are limited already, so real pvp is hard for me to do. It takes me a long time to learn strategies, even just for pve, and the few times i get jumped (or ganked) it takes everything to respond in a way i can counter it (Which for me means to avoid the confrontation entirely). Another thing for me is the ship loss. I don't care about the money, I could afford quite a few losses - but i really HATE having to replace it, I hate the time it takes to go shop for all the components. Give me a tool to go to any trade hub, load up my last ship fitting and one-click-shop the same setup - that might help shorten the time lost ....

My main has around 23 mill SP now, when I feel ripe and ready I'll be visiting the "dangerous" places more often. I have the idea to try and move into a WH to see if i can do it, and yes I know the risk in there is much higher than in HS, but when I move there I will know the dangers and will be ready for it (I hope).

No, I didn't join a corporation - I still have a boss at my rl job - don't need another one when I game. I did the guild thing way back when playing UO and Everquest, it's just not on my menu anymore.

You can call me carebear or coward if you like, I'll just call gankers and griefers bullys and triggerhappy snots in return.

Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#126 - 2015-05-02 10:40:29 UTC
Sulai Battasenda wrote:
. Give me a tool to go to any trade hub, load up my last ship fitting and one-click-shop the same setup - that might help shorten the time lost ....

My main has around 23 mill SP now, when I feel ripe and ready I'll be visiting the "dangerous" places more often. I have the idea to try and move into a WH to see if i can do it, and yes I know the risk in there is much higher than in HS, but when I move there I will know the dangers and will be ready for it (I hope).


If you can fit an Improved cloak, MWD, and have a jump clone (or don't worry about implant loss) then that's all that is needed for the 'dangerous' areas. ( The time I got jumped in my heron... I almost forgot to turn on the shield modules Oops)

Being able to shop from a fitting list... I like that idea.
El Taron
Doomheim
#127 - 2015-05-02 10:46:38 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
First of all , when i started to play eve , we had still working drake.
It was excelent ship for all.
The main and most important "feature" for a drake was that when it died , you loosed around 20-30mil after considering ship insurance.

Now when you want to take a similar "good" ship to a fight you will loose well over 100mil , or even more.

So im not surprised that people are more averse for loosing a ship.

Seccond of all , don't be surprised that people are afraid to undock - when i raid someone i have usually well formed gang - so they will just feed me kills or if they undock better gang i will just go elsewhere


This is nonsense.

It doesn't cost anywhere near 100mil to get a ship that can effectively pvp. You can have a fully fit t1 cruiser for about 30mil.

Infact if you want to make yourself engagable you don't even want a "good" ship, I try to think of ways to make ships people don't consider a threat to be useful to make people more comfortable engaging.

The attitude of we will stomp them or not fight at all is exactly what has stagnated the small gang (less than 5) scene.

Too many people for whatever reason don't want to risk dying, which is sad in a game, because it makes it boring.
Jori McKie
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#128 - 2015-05-02 11:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
The best way to get better at PvP is do more PvP and learn. For me still Starcraft is the best example, you won't get better by theorizing the build orders and strats, you have to play and not only your race. You actually need to know the other 2 races equally well to be good at the game.
It is the same for EVE, you won't be any good if you don't know what your opponent is capable of. Learning and getting better has a nice side effect you get confident and overcome your failure aversion. EVE is learning by doing/training, it is the same as in any other "sport" doing things 100x times you get better but after the 1000x times your brain automated the execution.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Basil Pupkin
Strategic Incompetence
#129 - 2015-05-02 13:35:15 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
The best way to get better at PvP is do more PvP and learn.

Bad case for eve. Smart people will realize in 1-2 attempts that SP is the biggest force multiplier that prevents all combat PvP success until you have at least 50-70 million of it, or another SP wall leaping mechanic such as being the 5th wheel in a fleet that doesn't need you, but can help you leap the SP wall.
Hence unless the said person is a pea-brain, doing more PvP leads to doing no PvP, unless "being content" and "PvP" is the same for you.
Jori McKie wrote:
For me still Starcraft is the best example, you won't get better by theorizing the build orders and strats, you have to play and not only your race.

You won't get better without theorizing either, which kinda ruins your point.
Jori McKie wrote:
You actually need to know the other 2 races equally well to be good at the game.

Wanna try that in eve... whoops, WTB 100 million SP toon.

Jori McKie wrote:
It is the same for EVE, you won't be any good if you don't know what your opponent is capable of. Learning and getting better has a nice side effect you get confident and overcome your failure aversion. EVE is learning by doing/training, it is the same as in any other "sport" doing things 100x times you get better but after the 1000x times your brain automated the execution.

Learning and getting better in eve for the first 5-6 years is done by a training queue ONLY.
There are sports like chess, where doing something 100-1000 times will only make you worse through being less variative and more predictable, and no matter how you want it to be wrong, eve is closer to that.

Repetition is the road to grand failure.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#130 - 2015-05-02 13:40:17 UTC
Whatever the post above mine says, do the opposite. He's just trying to perpetuate a hateful, anti newbie lie that has been going around for entirely too long.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#131 - 2015-05-02 13:41:45 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Bad case for eve. Smart people will realize in 1-2 attempts that SP is the biggest force multiplier that prevents all combat PvP success until you have at least 50-70 million of it, or another SP wall leaping mechanic such as being the 5th wheel in a fleet that doesn't need you, but can help you leap the SP wall.


That's not even remotely true. The biggest multiplier in EVE is by far game knowledge. Knowing how to utilize all the tools at your fingertips. If you have 1m SP and your opponent has 100m, but you know how to probe, use dscan, what to expect from each ship type, and how to fit, and he does not, you will almost certainly win.

Actually doing damage to them is just the formality at the end of a long chain of observing, trap laying and outmaneuvering. The best way to be successful is to educate yourself on the way EVE works. Repetition is pretty much the best way to do that, once you get the basics down.
El Taron
Doomheim
#132 - 2015-05-02 13:51:24 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
The best way to get better at PvP is do more PvP and learn.

Bad case for eve. Smart people will realize in 1-2 attempts that SP is the biggest force multiplier that prevents all combat PvP success until you have at least 50-70 million of it, or another SP wall leaping mechanic such as being the 5th wheel in a fleet that doesn't need you, but can help you leap the SP wall.
Hence unless the said person is a pea-brain, doing more PvP leads to doing no PvP, unless "being content" and "PvP" is the same for you.
Jori McKie wrote:
For me still Starcraft is the best example, you won't get better by theorizing the build orders and strats, you have to play and not only your race.

You won't get better without theorizing either, which kinda ruins your point.
Jori McKie wrote:
You actually need to know the other 2 races equally well to be good at the game.

Wanna try that in eve... whoops, WTB 100 million SP toon.

Jori McKie wrote:
It is the same for EVE, you won't be any good if you don't know what your opponent is capable of. Learning and getting better has a nice side effect you get confident and overcome your failure aversion. EVE is learning by doing/training, it is the same as in any other "sport" doing things 100x times you get better but after the 1000x times your brain automated the execution.

Learning and getting better in eve for the first 5-6 years is done by a training queue ONLY.
There are sports like chess, where doing something 100-1000 times will only make you worse through being less variative and more predictable, and no matter how you want it to be wrong, eve is closer to that.

Repetition is the road to grand failure.


If this was the case, a good pvper wouldn't be able to succeed on a low sp character. Which they can.

Anybody who says SP is the only factor in being a good pvper hasn't got a clue what they're talking about.
Jori McKie
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2015-05-02 13:53:21 UTC
@Basil Pupkin

I'm not sure, is your post sarcasm or are you in some kind of twisted dual Universe where everything is the opposite?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#134 - 2015-05-02 13:55:36 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
@Basil Pupkin

I'm not sure, is your post sarcasm or are you in some kind of twisted dual Universe where everything is the opposite?



Have a go through his post history. He once told me, unsarcastically, that docking is an exploit.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2015-05-02 13:59:05 UTC
Kamala wrote:
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Why do you keep spamming your blog


This.

OP, if you wish us to "please consider" something, then please consider writing it here instead of linking to your blog.


I, for one, disagree. Until we can post pictures of Jessica Alba's 'assets' on the forums, Feyd's blog is the only place on the entire internet with any worthwhile EVE ideas.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2015-05-02 14:03:00 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Crazy talk.


2014 was the year of my greatest EVE success story - training a protege. Myself, I took a long time getting into PVP and already had a lot of SP when I tried my hand at it more seriously. But the guy I trained last year had less than 5 mil SP. After teaching him the basics, and some advanced ways of outthinking opponents rather than outgunning or outclassing them, he dragged himself off to lowsec, alone, with a brand new 2014 toon, in a T1 fit Thorax, and killed an '08 toon in a fully T2 fit PVP Rupture.

Moral of the story is, you're nuts if you think SP is enough to win a fight.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Solecist Project
#137 - 2015-05-02 14:47:26 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
@Basil Pupkin

I'm not sure, is your post sarcasm or are you in some kind of twisted dual Universe where everything is the opposite?

As Kaarous suggested, go check his posting history.
Be warned that it's full of hate, lies, superficial crap and hypocrisy.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#138 - 2015-05-02 15:20:22 UTC
Quote:
Learning and getting better in eve for the first 5-6 years is done by a training queue ONLY.

You can get better if you log in and do stuff that involves risk, so you will learn new tricks, not only how to skill queue. P
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2015-05-02 15:25:46 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
Learning and getting better in eve for the first 5-6 years is done by a training queue ONLY.

You can get better if you log in and do stuff that involves risk, so you will learn new tricks, not only how to skill queue. P


But learning is hard!

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

DSpite Culhach
#140 - 2015-05-02 16:05:10 UTC
In this game, time is literally money.

Each day you are inactive costs you ~20-40 million ISK, because one month costs a PLEX to run. Every PvP loss you suffer is extra time needed doing something non-PVP to get the money back. Sure there is ganking activities that might create positive figures, but you could still kill a freighter with a single stack of $500 in Plex, and get ZERO drops.

Every time you lose resources or ships you are literally winding back a clock on your free time. You used up free time to play a game, and whatever you did for those X hours is gone.

This is all fine. This is how EVE actually works.

The thing is that most people want to always move forward, even if sometimes the forward speed is very slow.

EVE Online can make you go backwards. If you're a bit drunk or sleepy - or in extremes, you have no common sense - you don't just go backwards, you go back to the start. You can wipe years worth of game time off the board like it never happened. All your assets locked in a station, an extra zero typed in the market when lagged, an unlucky client disconnect while doing a mission with your dual screened Marauders.

If I had a ton of money and a ton of free time, then blowing $200+ bucks a month in ships bulk bought at Jita would not even register on my radar, but when losing a ship in a 2 minute fight might mean spending 30 minutes mining or in PvE missions to put together another one, that's not a step forward.

Unless players have gotten to a stage where they have established a system with decent economic stability that can absorb the stupid inevitable losses, they will either not engage the EVE game play, or will only do when they think they have the odds stacked in their favor.

They are not "risk averse", they are averse to "wasting" their free time. This is why everyone is always wanting a free SRP to be available.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.