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Countering Risk Aversion

First post
Author
Anuri Suaraj
The Cylar Foundation
#201 - 2015-05-03 14:20:05 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Kamala wrote:
Actually I quite like the skill system. It beats grinding. But it does create the inescapable fact that newer players can never catch up with older players. I don't know if this puts off new players, it didn't bother me much tbh.

Except when they reach [racial] frigate V.
Small blasters V.
Small blaster spec V.

etc. etc.

I don't understand how people can be so completely disconnected from reality.
Do you run around, complaining that children have it unfair compared to adults?

It's how the world works. When you start doing something,
you do not know how to do it well until you get better.



I think you should read twice before retorting like that.

Generally, every PC game ever, and every MMO ever, works on the principle that the more you play it, and the better you play it, the faster you acquire skills, items etc...

Whereas EVE is the only game in which a person that has logged in once 5 years ago, created an account and subscribed for a year can have more skills than a player that's been playing the game actively for the last six months or so.

The only way a newer player catches up is if the older player drops his subscription for a while.

I'm not claiming that the system is bad right off the bat, but I am saying it is different and weird and therefore should remain open for discussion.

Also, I don't get the children-adults analogy. What does the general process of human aging have to do with EVE?
Otso Bakarti
Doomheim
#202 - 2015-05-03 14:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Otso Bakarti
Solecist Project wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Well ... disregarding context is it true that too many new players jump to battleships directly.
I'm no PVE expert but I think that if you're a new player doing missions, doing them in a t1-fit battleship could make sense, especially because of the tank.

When I started almost 2 years ago, I missioned for a couple of weeks. I could manage L3s in cruisers, but when I got to battlecruisers it made things significantly easier. On the other hand, when I started PVPing I immediately went back to frigs.


I did eventually lose 2 BCs to neuting rats (didn't know I had an excellent chance of warping out by spamming warp, even if they were neuting me dry).

I have to admit I definitely raged a bit (especially when I lost the second one in the exact same way LOL I'm dumb), but at the same time it was one of my most intense EVE experiences.

I hate turning new players away, but if the 'losing lots of stuff' part of EVE doesn't appeal to you (after some initial rage), you probably won't enjoy the game so much anyway.

But the issue is that they do not even know what they are doing.
They are given bad advise.

You have to consider that the mind of a new player mostly is an empty glass.

The fact that people tell noobs to head directly to lvl4s is bad.
It does not actually promote the game and people don't see much of it.

The fact that people tell noobs to keep running missions is bad.
CCP confirms that. Social interaction is good, running missions for money all day isn't.


The fact that people go EASYMODE from the early on is bad.
Like ... they are being told to go to battlecruisers for lvl3s.

Why?
Because it's *easy*. Because it's a fast way to make money.

Of course there's no doubt that our PvE is lame as hell ...
... but for a new player it's still better to play something challenging.

All the other games are easy enough already.

It's carebearing griefers who badly influence the early days of new players.


So it's true ... battleships are way too easy to reach ...
... but fixing that would not address the actual problem.


Btw ... do lvl3s in thrashers ...


It's so good you know so much about everything. Now, if we only saw some knowledge from you, rather than vitriolically applied opinion. You don't know what's good or bad. You only know what's good or bad for you. Rather, your approach reminds me of Missus Kravitz. Always looking in the neighbor's window, ready to tell them what they should be doing...which is always (oddly enough) what you do? It's amazing, along with how multiple posts in a chainlink doing nothing more than spewing a diatribe on this "Sol is the sole expert. Sol's method of play is the doctrine" when all it is, despite what you imagine, is YOUR OPINION.

That being said, since you post your opinion as fact so effusively, others are getting the idea. You do what you do. We do what we do. It isn't going to kill you, or muss your garden.

There just isn't anything that can be said!

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#203 - 2015-05-03 14:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Anuri Suaraj wrote:

Also, I don't get the children-adults analogy. What does the general process of human aging have to do with EVE?


Older people have a lot more experience to draw from and generally have a better idea of what they're doing than someone fresh out of school. Also, EVE is hardly unique in its time = progression mechanic. Archeage, for one, has some sort of labor system that is similar to SP but applied differently.

And trust me, you don't need SP to be competitive. Heck, I've watched kin-tanked thrashers solo ratting tengus. Game knowledge is the game changer. I promise any experienced PvPer could swap characters with a legitimate newbie and win a fight between them.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2015-05-03 14:36:39 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:


tl;dr The reason of poor retention is because people below SP wall will always lose, people hate losing, and losing less will not help it one bit.


This "SP wall" is an illusion you've created for yourself. SP certainly carries advantages, but if you've spent a year skilling or just buy a toon of the bazaar and haven't actually spent any time playing the game, good luck managing your optimal, or using manual piloting to slingshot a kiter or bounce him off an environmental hazard, or knowing your damage types for best dps and tanking, or knowing not to mix tanks, or guns, etc. Skill points are only a fraction of your arsenal in this game, and failure to recognise that will be why you lose.

I've seen players with 2-5 mil SP go out and wreck guys with 50-100 or even more. You're only deluding yourself if you think SP is the be-all and end-all of engagements in this game. You might be deluding someone that doesn't know better as well, but people that know better are doing better and calling you out.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2015-05-03 14:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Anuri Suaraj wrote:

Also, I don't get the children-adults analogy. What does the general process of human aging have to do with EVE?


Older people have a lot more experience to draw from and generally have a better idea of what they're doing than someone fresh out of school. Also, EVE is hardly unique in its time = progression mechanic. Archeage, for one, has some sort of labor system that is similar to SP but applied differently.

And trust me, you don't need SP to be competitive. Heck, I've watched kin-tanked thrashers solo ratting tengus. Game knowledge is the game changer. I promise any experienced PvPer could swap characters with a legitimate newbie and win a fight between them.


I created a new toon last year on the same account, got her enough SP to get into a T1 fit Incursus and started challenging frigs to fights on the Amarr undock. Took down a 2012 in a T2-fit Raptor who, upon realising he was losing, de-aggressed and bailed back to zero on station. He never made it though.

I won a lot more fights with that toon than I thought I would to be honest. I think a lot of people who see the duel invite come in and look up your character in local and find you're only two months old and think, "oh a newbro, I'll win this for sure." On that note, I'm okay with letting the delusion that skillpoints matter persist if it means I get kills out of it ^_^

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Solecist Project
#206 - 2015-05-03 15:11:52 UTC
Anuri Suaraj wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Kamala wrote:
Actually I quite like the skill system. It beats grinding. But it does create the inescapable fact that newer players can never catch up with older players. I don't know if this puts off new players, it didn't bother me much tbh.

Except when they reach [racial] frigate V.
Small blasters V.
Small blaster spec V.

etc. etc.

I don't understand how people can be so completely disconnected from reality.
Do you run around, complaining that children have it unfair compared to adults?

It's how the world works. When you start doing something,
you do not know how to do it well until you get better.



I think you should read twice before retorting like that.

Generally, every PC game ever, and every MMO ever, works on the principle that the more you play it, and the better you play it, the faster you acquire skills, items etc...

Whereas EVE is the only game in which a person that has logged in once 5 years ago, created an account and subscribed for a year can have more skills than a player that's been playing the game actively for the last six months or so.

The only way a newer player catches up is if the older player drops his subscription for a while.

I'm not claiming that the system is bad right off the bat, but I am saying it is different and weird and therefore should remain open for discussion.

Also, I don't get the children-adults analogy. What does the general process of human aging have to do with EVE?
Are you sure?

It rather seems that the more people play, the harder it gets to level up.
Not the other way round.

This is a mechanism that keeps people addicted.
The first fixes come fast but continuously it gets harder and harder to feel satisfied.

EVE is different because it does not use such mechanics to make people addicted.
The skill system is different, as it progresses over time without the need for grinding.

And new players do not need to catch up! besides this being wrong anyway,
they have their own generation of people they are on par with!

It's realistic! You get born into a world and have to deal with the fact
that there are older people who know more and better.

EVE mimics the real world, unlike all these other games.

It's great as it is. The idea of being unable to catch up is bullshit.
If this was true it would have been an issue already years ago.

The unfairness is illusionary.
EVE mimics the real world with this and it's right to do so.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Basil Pupkin
Strategic Incompetence
#207 - 2015-05-03 17:11:04 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
SP certainly carries advantages, but if you've spent a year skilling or just buy a toon of the bazaar and haven't actually spent any time playing the game, good luck managing your optimal, or using manual piloting to slingshot a kiter or bounce him off an environmental hazard, or knowing your damage types for best dps and tanking, or knowing not to mix tanks, or guns, etc.

My point exactly. The ropes come into play only AFTER the SP wall has been crossed, because they're way behind it in force multiplication. Thanks for confirming.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
I've seen players with 2-5 mil SP go out and wreck guys with 50-100 or even more.

"Miracles are common because I've seen them about 3 times."
Want to count how many times 50-100 mil SP toons wrecked 2-5? We can go grind killboards right now, I gave a good estimate for you calling it a miracle.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
You're only deluding yourself if you think SP is the be-all and end-all of engagements in this game. You might be deluding someone that doesn't know better as well, but people that know better are doing better and calling you out.

This "delusion" is a product of first hand experience of everyone below SP wall being useless against everyone above it. The exceptions are either self-destructions or double miracle class occurences, which leads us to the fact that the general rule is solid with presented exceptions.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#208 - 2015-05-03 18:52:52 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
"Miracles are common because I've seen them about 3 times." .
Veteran n00bism is incurable.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2015-05-03 21:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Remiel Pollard wrote:
I've seen players with 2-5 mil SP go out and wreck guys with 50-100 or even more.

"Miracles are common because I've seen them about 3 times."
Want to count how many times 50-100 mil SP toons wrecked 2-5? We can go grind killboards right now, I gave a good estimate for you calling it a miracle.


Posting in a thread about how to reduce risk aversion that has degenerated into a mega-whine thread by 1 poster butthurt about skill points.....

As for the above, so what? You can point to lots of examples of a 50-100 million SP guy thrashing a 5 million sp dude. What does this prove? Your contention that only SP matter. Hardly. There is probably a fair degree of correlation between SP and PvP ability. The guy with 100 million SP has been in game, "a long time" (I'd guess somewhere between 7 and 8 years). Many PvP pilots are going to learn something that the 5 million SP pilot is still learning. Even if we removed 80% of the veteran pilots SP he'd still have an edge because of all the "learning-by-doing" he's done. Unless you have data on how to control for this variable (which we all know you don't) your killboard trawling is largely a pointless and vapid exercise.

And if we have a veteran who is fighting a new player and they are in T1 frigs does the veteran's 18.5 million sp in gunnery all count? No. All those SP in large lasers, hybrids, projectiles and the large spec skills, even the medium skills don't mean ****. The gunnery support skills certainly do help....which all new players should put in their training skill first.

This post raises a good point as well.

Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Demerius, I'd say that what wins fights in EVE is, in order of importance:

1. The pre-fight preparation. This is includes many things: ship/fit selection, pre-fight warping and maneuvering to fight where you want (at a gate, in a plex, in deadspace or in normal warpable space, ...) and at the starting range you prefer, psychological warfare to get your opponent mad or overconfident, etc.

2. Number of ships

3. Piloting during the fight

4. SP

Sure we all agree that if you assume 1,2 and 3 are equal (similar ships flown by competent pilots that just warp to the sun at zero and duke it out in a 1v1), then SP will indeed make a difference. But that's kinda obvious, isn't it?


This is almost trivially obvious. Yes, SP can be a factor. Are they the only factor? No. New players have options. Join a corp with a number of veteran players who can help you learn 1 and 3 and can even provide 2.

And you almost always argue as if the higher SP pilot always has the luxury of picking the best ship for the encounter whereas the new guy does not.

And frankly I have no issue if a 3 month old or even a year old character finds dealing with a 6+ year veteran a problem. In fact, I'd have a problem if being a 6+ year veteran did not convey advantages. Fortunately this is not a game where there are no options, the most significant option is to take advantage of the many opportunities to learn from the 6+ year veteran players.

Edit:

One thing that I always found frustrating was the new players inability to clean the **** out of their ears when it comes to taking advice from the veterans. For example, I've often advised new players to train Advanced Weapons Upgrades to level 5 ASAP. Many of the best fits are simply not doable without it. But the response is almost always one of:

"It's boring."
"I'm training shield booster V."
"I'm working at getting into a carrier."
etc.

So, sometimes the new guys need to learn the hard way. Like most of us. The smart person learns from others mistakes, but most of us...we learn from our own mistakes.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Amy Undergood
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
#210 - 2015-05-03 22:03:35 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
This "delusion" is a product of first hand experience of everyone below SP wall being useless against everyone above it. The exceptions are either self-destructions or double miracle class occurences, which leads us to the fact that the general rule is solid with presented exceptions.

At least you admit it's a delusion. That's progress.

But how many SP is the skillpoint wall today? It seems so variable. Sometimes you say it's 120 million, other times 80 million, other time 50 million; and always that characters below that level are useless. How someone can simultaneously be useful at 60 million (above the skillpoint wall one day) and useless (below it another day) is illogical.

Unfortunately for all your spin about the current skillpoint system being bad, you won't ever get the support behind you to change it because you are so negative and unbalanced about everything, to the point where people just don't seriously listen to anything you have to say.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#211 - 2015-05-03 22:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Amy Undergood wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
This "delusion" is a product of first hand experience of everyone below SP wall being useless against everyone above it. The exceptions are either self-destructions or double miracle class occurences, which leads us to the fact that the general rule is solid with presented exceptions.

At least you admit it's a delusion. That's progress.

But how many SP is the skillpoint wall today? It seems so variable. Sometimes you say it's 120 million, other times 80 million, other time 50 million; and always that characters below that level are useless. How someone can simultaneously be useful at 60 million (above the skillpoint wall one day) and useless (below it another day) is illogical.

Unfortunately for all your spin about the current skillpoint system being bad, you won't ever get the support behind you to change it because you are so negative and unbalanced about everything, to the point where people just don't seriously listen to anything you have to say.


I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kiandoshia
Likely Suspects
RAZOR Alliance
#212 - 2015-05-03 22:36:04 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
If ship insurance was realistic, it would be based on how many ships you personally lost and "claimed" on. Insurance companies make money.

In eve insurance is magic pixe money. I don't even bother insuring my ships most of the time. And making the game like every other MMO out there where death has no sting at all is just SOOO boring. If that is what you want. Play on the test server.


There are, or at least have been situations where an insurance works the way it does in Eve, back in the day when ships still had sails =p

But yeah, if you went to those guys and asked them to insure your ship after the third time you got it stolen, sunk in a storm or ran aground, they'd probably tell you go f yourself in a very kind manner.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2015-05-03 22:53:26 UTC
Kiandoshia wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
If ship insurance was realistic, it would be based on how many ships you personally lost and "claimed" on. Insurance companies make money.

In eve insurance is magic pixe money. I don't even bother insuring my ships most of the time. And making the game like every other MMO out there where death has no sting at all is just SOOO boring. If that is what you want. Play on the test server.


There are, or at least have been situations where an insurance works the way it does in Eve, back in the day when ships still had sails =p

But yeah, if you went to those guys and asked them to insure your ship after the third time you got it stolen, sunk in a storm or ran aground, they'd probably tell you go f yourself in a very kind manner.


Insurance only works in the following situation:

1. The event that is being insured against is rare (relatively speaking, e.g. there are lots of car accidents, but that is because the the number of people driving cars is vastly larger).
2. The event that is being insured against is costly.
3. The event that is being insured against is not desirable.

If you don't have those three things, you cannot have a functioning insurance market....at least not for long.

I doubt we could have a functioning insurance market in Eve.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kiandoshia
Likely Suspects
RAZOR Alliance
#214 - 2015-05-04 00:03:21 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kiandoshia wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
If ship insurance was realistic, it would be based on how many ships you personally lost and "claimed" on. Insurance companies make money.

In eve insurance is magic pixe money. I don't even bother insuring my ships most of the time. And making the game like every other MMO out there where death has no sting at all is just SOOO boring. If that is what you want. Play on the test server.


There are, or at least have been situations where an insurance works the way it does in Eve, back in the day when ships still had sails =p

But yeah, if you went to those guys and asked them to insure your ship after the third time you got it stolen, sunk in a storm or ran aground, they'd probably tell you go f yourself in a very kind manner.


Insurance only works in the following situation:

1. The event that is being insured against is rare (relatively speaking, e.g. there are lots of car accidents, but that is because the the number of people driving cars is vastly larger).
2. The event that is being insured against is costly.
3. The event that is being insured against is not desirable.

If you don't have those three things, you cannot have a functioning insurance market....at least not for long.

I doubt we could have a functioning insurance market in Eve.


No, of course no. The way the insurance works in Eve is ridiculous and gamey and I'm sure that's pretty obvious to everyone. As you said, the event that those ships I was talking about (or their cargo) were being insured against were very rare, but it worked the same way it does in Eve, where someone would pay a percentage of the value of the cargo and be refunded the full value in case of a loss.

Anyways, in reply to the topic: I doubt that feeding more money back into the game is going to make people any less risk averse. Such is the beauty of a video game with 'real' loss where you have to 'work' for your space pixels and they're really gone when they are gone.

Want people to suicide into each other all day, with any kinds of fancy ships? Go organise epic tournaments on SiSi. I'm sure it could be done.
Ria Nieyli
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#215 - 2015-05-04 00:09:52 UTC
Increasing insurance payout will do exactly 0 to make people PvP more. Getting killed repeatedly with no opportunity to fight back simply isn't fun gameplay, regardless of how little ISK you spend on it. I think the people that cry risk aversion are older well-settled players that can't understand why people choose not to fight them.
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#216 - 2015-05-04 00:26:30 UTC
After all this I have a question. Why is being "risk averse"/"loss averse" a bad thing??

Regardless of why someone doesn't want to do anything in this game, regardless of what they do to make the situation better in their favor. Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn't you want to fly with someone who isn't going to want to run into every situation without thinking it through first?


I have spent most of my time in WH space and something that I know is that sometimes you try to find out as much as you can before engaging and sometimes you just gotta go with your gut and hope for the best. Those times when we took the extra time to see if that bearing fleet wasn't bait sometimes saved our ships and sometimes it meant that they noticed our scout jumping a hole and bugged out. Those times that we just went for it sometimes meant that our fleet got whelped when a PVP gang jumped on us when we took the bait (for better or worse for both sides) and sometimes it meant that we killed a juicy bear. Both of these situations we had to make a quick choice as to if we wanted to take the extra time to be safe, or secure a kill. Is that risk aversion or is it flying smart??
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#217 - 2015-05-04 01:29:01 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
After all this I have a question. Why is being "risk averse"/"loss averse" a bad thing??

Regardless of why someone doesn't want to do anything in this game, regardless of what they do to make the situation better in their favor. Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn't you want to fly with someone who isn't going to want to run into every situation without thinking it through first?


I have spent most of my time in WH space and something that I know is that sometimes you try to find out as much as you can before engaging and sometimes you just gotta go with your gut and hope for the best. Those times when we took the extra time to see if that bearing fleet wasn't bait sometimes saved our ships and sometimes it meant that they noticed our scout jumping a hole and bugged out. Those times that we just went for it sometimes meant that our fleet got whelped when a PVP gang jumped on us when we took the bait (for better or worse for both sides) and sometimes it meant that we killed a juicy bear. Both of these situations we had to make a quick choice as to if we wanted to take the extra time to be safe, or secure a kill. Is that risk aversion or is it flying smart??


If everyone plays in an extremely risk averse manner, fights don't happen.

Right now the people generating content are the people that either 1) don't understand the game enough to assess risk accurately or 2) are willing to dive into high risk situations with an expensive ship or an entire fleet.
Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
Pen Is Out
#218 - 2015-05-04 01:33:38 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Amy Undergood wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
This "delusion" is a product of first bad experience of everyone below SP wall being useless against everyone above it. The exceptions are either self-destructions or double miracle class occurences, which leads us to the fact that the general rule is solid with presented exceptions.

At least you admit it's a delusion. That's progress.

But how many SP is the skillpoint wall today? It seems so variable. Sometimes you say it's 120 million, other times 80 million, other time 50 million; and always that characters below that level are useless. How someone can simultaneously be useful at 60 million (above the skillpoint wall one day) and useless (below it another day) is illogical.

Unfortunately for all your spin about the current skillpoint system being bad, you won't ever get the support behind you to change it because you are so negative and unbalanced about everything, to the point where people just don't seriously listen to anything you have to say.


I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?



I'm pretty sure he explicitly stated that flying with a blob is one way to hop the SP wall. I can go out in an atron and hero tackle a faction battleship in lowsec somewhere but without a significant fleet behind me I can't accomplish anything further.

You can be effective in a blob on day 1. The issue is that blob gameplay gets boring. The fight is usually not that interesting for either party.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#219 - 2015-05-04 01:46:24 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Amy Undergood wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
This "delusion" is a product of first bad experience of everyone below SP wall being useless against everyone above it. The exceptions are either self-destructions or double miracle class occurences, which leads us to the fact that the general rule is solid with presented exceptions.

At least you admit it's a delusion. That's progress.

But how many SP is the skillpoint wall today? It seems so variable. Sometimes you say it's 120 million, other times 80 million, other time 50 million; and always that characters below that level are useless. How someone can simultaneously be useful at 60 million (above the skillpoint wall one day) and useless (below it another day) is illogical.

Unfortunately for all your spin about the current skillpoint system being bad, you won't ever get the support behind you to change it because you are so negative and unbalanced about everything, to the point where people just don't seriously listen to anything you have to say.


I wonder how many of the titans that have died over the years were initially trapped by a guy with 1/5th the SP (maybe even 1/10th) of the titan pilot...some dude who, relatively speaking, is "new" but old enough/smart enough to be in a dictor? Was that "new guy" useless?



I'm pretty sure he explicitly stated that flying with a blob is one way to hop the SP wall. I can go out in an atron and hero tackle a faction battleship in lowsec somewhere but without a significant fleet behind me I can't accomplish anything further.

You can be effective in a blob on day 1. The issue is that blob gameplay gets boring. The fight is usually not that interesting for either party.


Titan killing often does not start with a blob. Eventually enough players are needed to kill it, but usually it is one guy in a hic or dic that gets the titan.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#220 - 2015-05-04 01:56:23 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kashadin wrote:
After all this I have a question. Why is being "risk averse"/"loss averse" a bad thing??

Regardless of why someone doesn't want to do anything in this game, regardless of what they do to make the situation better in their favor. Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn't you want to fly with someone who isn't going to want to run into every situation without thinking it through first?


I have spent most of my time in WH space and something that I know is that sometimes you try to find out as much as you can before engaging and sometimes you just gotta go with your gut and hope for the best. Those times when we took the extra time to see if that bearing fleet wasn't bait sometimes saved our ships and sometimes it meant that they noticed our scout jumping a hole and bugged out. Those times that we just went for it sometimes meant that our fleet got whelped when a PVP gang jumped on us when we took the bait (for better or worse for both sides) and sometimes it meant that we killed a juicy bear. Both of these situations we had to make a quick choice as to if we wanted to take the extra time to be safe, or secure a kill. Is that risk aversion or is it flying smart??


If everyone plays in an extremely risk averse manner, fights don't happen.

Right now the people generating content are the people that either 1) don't understand the game enough to assess risk accurately or 2) are willing to dive into high risk situations with an expensive ship or an entire fleet.



The thing is, is that a problem with the way the game is run or with the way that players play the game?

I don't think that CCP will ever be able to do anything that will make people who don't want to do small scale or solo PVP go out and fight unless they make that the only activity in the game, and even then most people will probably just quit the game.

And I ask again, is the perceived risk aversion of players a bad thing or is it just bad when you are someone who only wants to gank or curbstomp people?

Just because you are willing to fly around in a pimp fit BS looking for PVP does not mean that you aren't risk averse, it just means that you are willing to lose a expensive ship.

Hell, most people seem to be just as protective of the pimp fit ships that they PVP with as they are of cheap fit T1 frigs, it comes down to people not wanting to lose something if they don't have to. Which in my opinion has more to do with being a smart pilot and less to do with being risk averse.


Any reason that someone comes up with as to why they don't want to get into a fight with someone doesn't really matter. Whether that be a precived "SP wall", the person is a known blobber or OGB user, the person is flying a ship that counters yours or is set up to defeat yours, or even just because you are flying a PVE fit ship and they are flying a PVP fit ship. What ever they reason that someone has to not fight could be considered being "risk averse".

What would you tell someone who would take a pimp fit pirate BS that was set up to do HS incursions into a WH PVP scenario? That they are the type of person you want to fly with or that they are a idiot? This person is obviously not risk-averse if they knew that PVP was about to go down when they showed up with that ship, just most PVPers would just call them a idiot and a loot-pinata and KB booster.

PVP isn't the only area of EVE where people avoid risk as much as possible. How many guides are out there telling people what ships to use to do certain missions? Hell, how many guides are there that tell you exactly how much DPS is coming from each wave of a PVE encounter and exactly what you need to do to finish the fight as fast and safely as possible?

Players not wanting to die as little to nothing to do with what activity they are doing and has more to do with the fact that EVERYONE HATES LOSING. Period. And any smart player will do what they can to make sure they win, and if they don't that just means that they are suicidal and not "making content"

Trust me, I have made a lot of dumb decisions in this game because I don't mind losing ships, and it annoys the ever loving **** out of me when people blue-ball and pos up/dock up just because they are scared of losing a ship. But I understand that not everyone has a PVP ship on standby, or even has any interest in PVPing. I just move on to the next system and hope that I can catch that person out the next time I run into them. At the same time I'm not willing to take my ship and pod into a giant ball of enemies just to show the "gud fight".