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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

First post First post
Author
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#661 - 2015-05-01 19:14:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"


Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.


And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count.


Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed Roll not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days?

Im sure it was Goons who got Tech buffed in the first place to right. Exposing the Dyspro Dupers prior to the rebalance of T2 build requirements. I imagine the Mittani himself spoke directly with Hilmar and made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or something like that?

(CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons)


We were the ones that went and took almost all of them and then said "we warned you now nerf us". Thats the difference between us and you. You are willing to keep game imbalances when you make personal gain. We tell CCP its broken then force it to be fixed. As you said, we are here to destroy your game not the game.


You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.

Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.

Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#662 - 2015-05-01 19:20:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Its odd how you can view tech moons as being unbalanced yet you can see the same thing when it comes to highsec activities that are just as broken.


Well history, up until at least now, has proven that CCP considered the moons to be unbalanced while not proving the consider incursion unbalanced. Who's fault is it if CCP never deemed it worth it to divide a bunch of number by 2?

It's not like that have to re-seed incursions to nerf their income if they see it as unbalanced as they pretty much had to do with moons.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#663 - 2015-05-01 19:52:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lets take a closer look at CCPs actions over the last year shall we?

Industry revamp.

They nerfed high sec industry and buffed nullsec industry. Null industry is now more rewarding than in highsec which was CCPs goal, stating that people who do industry in null expend more effort, cost, time and risk therefore should see greater rewards.

Refining update.
CCP nerfed highsec refining and buffed null sec refining. Again, stating that more risk, effort and cost should yeild more reward.

Ore Changes.
CCP have worked on ore with the goal of making nullsec mining more rewarding than in highsec, again stating that people who take more more risk, effort and cost should be rewarded.

Looking further back we see PI gives morereward in null than highsec as does exploration. Are we seeing a pattern yet?

CCP are slowly revamping the whole game so that you get more reward for greater risk/effort/cost. So, everything you have said about risk/reward is just flat out wrong.

And yet, null still sucks. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#664 - 2015-05-01 21:09:00 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

And yet, null still sucks. Twisted


At least its now being worked on now that we have won dominion.Blink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#665 - 2015-05-01 21:12:23 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.

Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.

Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is.


Very
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#666 - 2015-05-01 21:31:27 UTC
no

not convinced, not supported

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

u3pog
Ministerstvo na otbranata
#667 - 2015-05-01 21:41:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You were already told in this very thread what to do if it was as imbalanced as you say. You already know the drill. Get overwhelming control over it and then tell CCP to nerf you.

Form 3+ fleet for every incursion and show them how much it break the game when 120+ player from null sec make that much ISK. Since incursion also have a rather low risk level, there is no problem for an entity recognized for it's ability to get things rolling with unmatched efficiency.

Show us, glorious Imperium, how broken it is.


Very


Holy s**t, people's creativity never ceases to amaze me. On a second thought this passive income is huge and it's most likely affecting the whole player base. Like someone said in the video - 20 PLEX for just 1 player, and there must be a lot more multiboxers out there, so they are affecting both PLEX prices and the market as a whole by pouring all that ISK into them.

I guess there's no limit except your hardware and will to go for more than 20 accounts...I've also got alts, but I am doing it the old fashioned way - alt tabbing through windows, this is on a whole new level. Shocked
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#668 - 2015-05-01 21:55:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Its odd how you can view tech moons as being unbalanced yet you can see the same thing when it comes to highsec activities that are just as broken.


Of course not, that's how intellectual dishonesty works.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#669 - 2015-05-01 22:29:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Its a strategic agenda to control the ISK, Incursions and level 4's are what the people who want to do this use to make ISK, so they want them nerfed so they cannot be threatened...


Even if I were take that at face value entirely, it still doesn't philosophically make sense. There are plenty of places to regroup or rebuild which do not have risk free income. The question then becomes, why would you ever hole up in NPC null or non-FW lowsec when, get this, it doesn't have as much accessible income as HiSec. I would be extraordinarily pleased if income in non-FW low or NPC null was buffed. It's not just sov that matters here - whole entire playstyles are debased due to the income disparity of HiSec/Incursions/L4s.

Anuri Suaraj wrote:
I really love this thread.

High sec incursion runners: "Get your hands out of my pocket..."

Low/null sec gankers: "Get rid of incursions so that only we can make bank and also kill a lot of high sec dweebs as they're pushed out into low sec."

And nobody has an agenda, allegedly.

Priceless.


My agenda is to make every space in the game viable and/or able to support its residents versus the expected risks they face. I just find it utterly hilarious that HiSec maintains this monopoly so well. Besides Jenn, no one is really talking up FW income - everyone just casually accepts it or profits off it. Honestly I can't find myself too annoyed at it given the elephant in the room of HiSec income - at least FW supports players enough that they could participate in a non-stop PVP slugfest that FW is supposed to be. Rather, why does HiSec need such a gratuitous income faucet when there is basically no risk there? Why do places like Syndicate have absolutely no good bottom up income sources for small entities, when it is such an incredibly violent region?

I'm tired of HiSec alts. You shouldn't need them, the game shouldn't encourage them. Each area of space should aim to have wealth generation be tied to the relative amount of risk. No one is harking on WHs either; they fight incredibly bloody battles for control of holes, and PvE there can be incredibly risky - making absurd wealth is fine when you are facing risks of the same magnitude. Fozziesov is tied to residents wanting to actually live in the space they own, if they can't, if sov-null can't support sov-null style losses, or isnt the best route to doing so, I can't see it doing well.


Of course it does not make sense if you are talking about regrouping, I was talking about the stage before that when the CFC goes out to destabilise their target before the hammer drops, this is the interdiction of the ISK generation of their target. if you get off of your grand soap box and think about the ramifications of this in what is going to happen, people will be spreading out into null from hisec and in small groups that initially test the waters and will be able to develop from that. To close them down will take just one cloaky based on the current mechanics, but of course we will not use the system to make ISK at least for the medium term until things start t sort out, all our ISK will come from level 4's, the hisec markets and incursions.

So waffling on about the retreat to NPC null and such is irrelevant because the systems we will try for are next to hisec and if it gets rolled over just come back when they head off to roll over someone else, rinse and repeat you got it. If enough people do this then it will start to open up the game.

There is nothing wrong with hisec income, it allows people to break into 0.0, and that is why certain people want it nerfed, not because of risk or reward, it is a strategic necessity so they can keep their control on the majority of null and that they can easily tie them down by cutting of the income with single cloaky camper.

There are a lot of people in smaller corps and alliances that are now starting to make their preparations to take a system or two, how to stop them, get rid of the two income sources that cannot be as easily interdicted without real effort. like they can shut down a null sec system. In truth only a tickover amount can be made because most of the people will be defending their system but it enables you to resist and gather resources if you are good at it and in Eve wearing down the enemy is how you win.

This is not about risk / reward, its about strategic control of income, but the thing is that only a limited number of people can run Incursions, the main income is level 4's and that is what is always getting attacked by these people and they never stop going on and on about it, downplaying how much null sec anoms can be run for and quoting figures from blitzing to max effort on level 4's. It gets so wearing and its as tedious as hell.


Because all that freighter and hulk/industrial ganking was really all about highsec commerce interdiction and not "greifing" which goons like to do.

It's actually a legitimate objective to control a market with guns - Eve is built for that. It was intended. But the goons like to make it all about "griefing" to cover the whole subject in sperging "p!ss and vinegar" and take the fun out of it.

You see the goons have to win at Eve in order to wreck it. It's genius on CCPs part that they got the goons having to play the same game as anybody else. But the goons have the numbers for it.

So to see goons wanting highsec incursions nerfed because they cannot run the same interdiction on them as they do commerce is a bit of a letdown. Shows me that, as some long time and higher up goons have admitted to me privately, the days of "OMG! Bees!" are waning and the goons have grown fat and complacent in their dotage on tech moons.

Sad thing is they have given up and started whining too soon. I can't think of any bling boat that's going to stand up to say half a dozen blaster hyperions.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#670 - 2015-05-01 22:36:11 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

It's actually a legitimate objective to control a market with guns - Eve is built for that. It was intended.


There is no such thing as a "legitimate" objective, because this is a sandbox. There are no illegitimate objectives. Eve was built like that, it is intended.

If you hate player freedom, that's fine, but don't complain that it's not working as intended, because it is.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mario Putzo
#671 - 2015-05-02 03:42:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you


It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes).


So anything not NS is broken. LOL.

Maybe its NS that is broken...
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#672 - 2015-05-02 03:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
baltec1 wrote:
At least its now being worked on now that we have won dominion.Blink

Great, so it will potentially suck less after FozzieSov. But it will still suck.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#673 - 2015-05-02 03:47:03 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

So anything not NS is broken. LOL.

Maybe its NS that is broken...


If you're using incursions as the benchmark, it would make everything else look broken. Even wormhole PvE, which has ludicrous rewards, is at least balanced by risk factor.

So we can fix a dozen or more other things, or we can nerf incursions in some way. I would ask you which one makes better game design sense to you, but you invalidated your opinion on that one with your inflation comments earlier.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mario Putzo
#674 - 2015-05-02 04:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

So anything not NS is broken. LOL.

Maybe its NS that is broken...


If you're using incursions as the benchmark, it would make everything else look broken. Even wormhole PvE, which has ludicrous rewards, is at least balanced by risk factor.

So we can fix a dozen or more other things, or we can nerf incursions in some way. I would ask you which one makes better game design sense to you, but you invalidated your opinion on that one with your inflation comments earlier.

Did you read what I quoted at all?

I didn't set any benchmarks, but if all those things I quoted are broken because NS doesn't earn as much as them...perhaps it is NS that is out of line compared to them? To me that just looks like 4 different ways to make isk in 2 different regions of space and all of them are fairly in line with each other in different ways. Not one NS income source mentioned by the resident PVE expert.

Really leads one to believe it is an issue with NS PVE, and not PVE in HS or I guess now also LS. You going to nerf them all so the 135m/hr you and 1 buddy can make grinding anoms makes you feel better?

If it looks like ****, and smells like **** it is probably ****.


(Inflation has no impact on EVEs economy as a whole (as a whole means everything combined and summed to total EVEs GDP). It can not, it is not possible. Some regions and events may lag behind others, but the greater economy will not have any impact on it but growth. The only thing that can negatively impact EVEs economy as a whole, is if people begin leaving on mass.)
Kaye Kaye
Doomheim
#675 - 2015-05-02 04:11:32 UTC
I play solo so don't run incursions, but...

It bugs me when players can't see past their personal game.
There are over 500,000 accounts with at least over 100,000 players.

You should be able to find something to do in game without changing someone Else's.

It's also funny you said you run them and for some reason can't stop yourself from running them.
Just pretend they're gone and make new friends that don't run incursions.

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#676 - 2015-05-02 05:43:57 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you


It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes).


So anything not NS is broken. LOL.

Maybe its NS that is broken...


See, that's your problem. Prejudice. Your opinion is based on nothing more than hatred of null sec. Out of all the unbalanced PVE I mention, they only thing you can focus on is a lack of mention of null PVE?

Null sec PVE is screwed up, but the game is also interconnected. Anoms were a poor choice for the thing that would become the center of the Dominion sov upgrade scheme. They spew liquid isk while being afkable. Additionally, because the majority of rewards are bounties (which haven't changed in years unless you count the ESS nerfs), that means null anoms are at the mercy of the economy where as wormhole blue loot and mission/Incursion LP are less so. AND unlike missions, Anoms aren't 'blitzable' for better rewards, meaning the ONLY way to increase isk per hour in an anom is alts. The end result is content that pays less per individual than most other PVE, but that is also afkable for liquid isk, resulting in the afktar.

The Combat exploration PVE (unrated sites and DED 7-10/10s) haven't been updated at all since the 2009 OPE nerf and are operating with now 9 year old loot tables. The addition of things like Pithum/Gistum invuls means null deadspace loot isn't the best and hasn't been for years.

When you add all the above up then add them to the fact that you can take a freaking bomber into FW or spend a couple bil blinging a pirate BS to use in near perfect safety in incursions, the end result is a truly messed up system. One you feel confident enough to comment on while not lifting a single finger to experience for yourself. If you did, you'd see the imbalance. Whether you'd be honest enough to admit that in public would be another matter.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#677 - 2015-05-02 05:49:07 UTC
Kaye Kaye wrote:
I play solo so don't run incursions, but...

It bugs me when players can't see past their personal game.
There are over 500,000 accounts with at least over 100,000 players.

You should be able to find something to do in game without changing someone Else's.

It's also funny you said you run them and for some reason can't stop yourself from running them.
Just pretend they're gone and make new friends that don't run incursions.




This is the kind of lie people need to tell themselves when they want to ignore an unpleasant reality. The bolded part is the tell, meaning this poster probably profits from the imbalances under discussion. The underlined bit is a common theme: people defending a broken status quo don't even have much experience with the broken things being discussed, but still feel confident enough to have an opinion about it.

It's not about taking something from someone, it's about a proper balance, one in which people who live in certain places aren't punished (rather than rewarded) for taking risks. High Sec incursions as currently constituted reward people for not taking risks, and no matter how you cut it, that's bad game design.
Solecist Project
#678 - 2015-05-02 06:33:39 UTC
Kaye Kaye wrote:
I play solo so don't run incursions, but...

It bugs me when players can't see past their personal game.
There are over 500,000 accounts with at least over 100,000 players.

You should be able to find something to do in game without changing someone Else's.

That's not possible.
Ignorance doesn't magically change how reality works.

Whatever you do affects someone else ...
... even absense of influence, because you could have.

There is not a single thing you can do ...
... nowhere, ever ...
... that doesn't so somehow have effects on others.

Maybe try being less ignorant, self centered and antisocial.

Ha... yeah, right.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Mario Putzo
#679 - 2015-05-02 07:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you


It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes).


So anything not NS is broken. LOL.

Maybe its NS that is broken...


See, that's your problem. Prejudice. Your opinion is based on nothing more than hatred of null sec. Out of all the unbalanced PVE I mention, they only thing you can focus on is a lack of mention of null PVE?


Its not bias, its experience. I have done every one of those events you listed, and cycle through them repeatedly. Except incursions, because I don't like to wait. I entered into 1 incursion group and it took the FC almost an hour to get his fleet sorted, and I said **** this and left....that was my incursion experience.

Secondly I don't hate NS, I have made a ton of ISK from NS. Pirate L4s which you so conveniently left off your list generate more isk/hr than some of the events you included on your list, namely L4s, and occasionally FW Missions. Also missing from your list is C6 WH Anoms which are by and far the number 1 source of making ISK in the game,600-1B/hr depending how you run them. **** you can make 130M/hr in a ******* Venture doing Gas sites.

Third in regards to FW missions, these generate isk 100% dependent on what the FW scene is like, and in a bomber the only way you are banging out isk without any real risk of loss (or warping in/out) is by flying with Minmatar against Amarr, any other choice gives you Damps from Gallente, Jams from Caldari, TPs from Minmatar. Amarr is viable in an SB because they TD which is useless against Missiles.


So your comparison is to what exactly, you have yet to actually state just what these PVE events are compared against.

- Its clearly not against C4,5,6 WH Income
- Its clearly not against Pirate Faction L4s
- Its clearly not against each other (they all generate relatively the same end result isk/hr unless under IDEAL circumstance, in which case Incursions pull ahead, but are dependent on having a fleet.)

This leaves Anoms and DED sites, and since NS has the highest cap for these, then process of elimination dictates this is what YOU not me, are comparing them to.

Of course the rest of your post goes on to explain more in detail about your thought process and that in fact it is NS you are comparing to.

Guess what I agree, Sov NS in particular needs to have some help in its PVE situation. But that does not mean it needs to come at the expense of Incursions, let alone the now 4 PVE events you claim to be out of balance. The only out of balance PVE is NS Anoms, and DED sites, heck even LS DED sites could use a pass.

I am a PVE player, I have done it all, and routinely do it all, except incursions, and I can tell you with experience that any of those events you call out of balance, are perfectly fine when compared to other "end game" PVE events.

Please stop trying to blow smoke up my ass.

Oh and for the record, I also make more isk/hr manufacturing than any PVE event you listed can touch, 100% risk free, should we nerf production too?
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#680 - 2015-05-02 07:52:41 UTC
High sec production? Yes.