These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP - End Highsec Incursions

First post First post
Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#641 - 2015-05-01 16:18:40 UTC
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


So what do the "60 haters" get out of this?

Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.
Mario Putzo
#642 - 2015-05-01 16:24:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


So what do the "60 haters" get out of this?

Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.


What balance issues are you referring to again?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#643 - 2015-05-01 16:28:03 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


So what do the "60 haters" get out of this?

Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.


What balance issues are you referring to again?


Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#644 - 2015-05-01 16:32:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


So what do the "60 haters" get out of this?

Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.


What balance issues are you referring to again?


Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...


The TECH imbalance created 0 ISK unless someone found a way to sell to NPC buy orders...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#645 - 2015-05-01 16:35:13 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

Actions speak louder than words.


Lets take a closer look at CCPs actions over the last year shall we?

Industry revamp.

They nerfed high sec industry and buffed nullsec industry. Null industry is now more rewarding than in highsec which was CCPs goal, stating that people who do industry in null expend more effort, cost, time and risk therefore should see greater rewards.

Refining update.
CCP nerfed highsec refining and buffed null sec refining. Again, stating that more risk, effort and cost should yeild more reward.

Ore Changes.
CCP have worked on ore with the goal of making nullsec mining more rewarding than in highsec, again stating that people who take more more risk, effort and cost should be rewarded.

Looking further back we see PI gives morereward in null than highsec as does exploration. Are we seeing a pattern yet?

CCP are slowly revamping the whole game so that you get more reward for greater risk/effort/cost. So, everything you have said about risk/reward is just flat out wrong.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#646 - 2015-05-01 16:35:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


So what do the "60 haters" get out of this?

Ballance issues need to be fixed not swept under the carpet.


Nothing since it was a bad idea to begin with. You can't **** up another fleet's payout unless you beat them at completing the site OR somehow manage to join their fleet AND get on grid for the site closure.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#647 - 2015-05-01 16:37:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


The TECH imbalance created 0 ISK unless someone found a way to sell to NPC buy orders...


Best part of the tech argument is that they have no idea how much a tech moon tower actually made, they just assume it was infinite.
Mario Putzo
#648 - 2015-05-01 16:37:41 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...


Oh and lets get rid of T2 BPOs too and remove ISK from anyone who has them since it is an unfair advantage people got just because they were around at the time.

Lets also ban direct trading, and money transfers, because its not fair if some folks know people with deep pockets and didn't actually have to put in the effort themselves to get isk or items.

Also we should totally rebalance mineral distribution, its totally not fair that I have to source from NS to get R64s, and Mega/Zyd/Merc.

Heck we should also get rid of PLEX because its not fair that some dude irl makes $30/hr and I don't make anything because I am a no life with no job. Why should he be able to RMT ISK, when I have to work for it.

I know lets just make everything equal so it doesn't matter where you play the game, everything is the same. We can even take isk out of the game because its totes not fair that some folks have more than me, they should have to build everything they want to use, If I can do it so can they.


Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#649 - 2015-05-01 16:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I am not the one telling everyone how good I am at PvE in almost every thread I post in, neither do I tell people they are mad if they disagree with me, like your favourite of suggesting those that disagree with you are on meds or something similar. Neither do I look at the max income one can make from level 4's and compare that to a afk method of running anoms and stating that Level 4's are too good.[/quote[

You, baltec1 and a number of others go on and on like broken record players about level 4's in hisec and incursions being out of kilter, that smacks of an agenda.


Edit: I was going to respnd to this but their only so many ways one can tell someone they don't like them and that they think they have"problems" before one says "why bother?".

Quote:

But yeah I am mad, obviously... CoolRoll

EDIT: As for making the point that many people who are in null sec have mission/incursion running alts, what of it, many alliances have CTA's that if you turn up after they have gone you are required to not do anything in game, so having the ability to play somewhere else just seems like commons sense. Does not bother me in the slightest, good luck to them, I really don't see what the issue is?


Of course you don't, that much is obvious. Those 'atls' are making isk either in safety (high sec) or in "inconsequential risk" situations (faction warfare missions, who cares if you lose a purifier every other day when you can make 200 mil per hour?) are bad for the game.

When we rat in null with a PVE ship, or we do the same in wormhole space, or we make a lvl 5 running fleet or incursion fleet in lwo sec, we are PAYING for the isk/items/wealth we are putting into the EVE economy by risking pve fit ships we'd rather not lose. This creates content for everyone, "stress" for us PVErs (that makes the rewards we gain against the best efforts of the "PVPrs" that much sweeter) and opportunities for the pvp guys who try to stop us.

That's competition, and that's balance. Making mad isk in safety or when we don't care if the ship explodes, that's un-balanced(how do you cut a groups supply line off when that supply is invulnerable and protected by CONCORD?). I'm going to keep doing it as long as CCP makes that stuff available, but the difference between you and me is that I'm honest enough to call these things what they actually are: not the best gameplay EVE can offer.


In terms of null sec ISK generation, I actually prefer doing that because it is more fun, which I have indicated to you before in previous debates. The fun is doing this while people want to stop you, hell I enjoyed every warp to a site and every alignment back to the POS safe, because I knew I was at risk.

Lets go into a very basic answer in terms of people in null having mission and incursion runners in hisec, one is of course the CTA issue I detailed above, but the real issue is those alliances near major players who have an AFK cloaky camper in their system 24/24 7/7. I know a lot of people go on and on about there being no risk because they are afk and all the other BS to cover up for this lame style of play, but sov costs ISK and if it was not for the fact that this is so prevalent and risk free for the cloaky camper, then perhaps my stance would be less defensive on level 4's and incursions, but there are multiple imbalances all inter-linked, including the massive ISK generation created by the Tech imbalance which made it impossible for smaller alliances to stand up to any of the big three that were part of that. NCDOT however still have the war chest and assets from that, but they are failing because their people no longer really log in any more.

The faction warfare thing is something I do not like, however at least it is low sec and there is risk, but yeah the reward is out of kilter compared to the asset put at risk.

Hisec has risk, lots of BS get blown up in and around Osmon, when there was an incursion near Kamio I was there going after Goon incursion gankers at one point. You discount those risks as negligible, but they are there.

Incursions and FW ISK generation are not fun which is why I do not do them, but Incursions is a limited ISK font in terms of the number of people able to run them. At least Incursion runners put serious assets at risk, even if it is fairly minimal in a well run group.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
Auric Transition
#650 - 2015-05-01 16:46:47 UTC
*makes bales of hay*
Mario Putzo
#651 - 2015-05-01 16:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

Actions speak louder than words.


Lets take a closer look at CCPs actions over the last year shall we?

Industry revamp.

They nerfed high sec industry and buffed nullsec industry. Null industry is now more rewarding than in highsec which was CCPs goal, stating that people who do industry in null expend more effort, cost, time and risk therefore should see greater rewards.

Refining update.
CCP nerfed highsec refining and buffed null sec refining. Again, stating that more risk, effort and cost should yeild more reward.

Ore Changes.
CCP have worked on ore with the goal of making nullsec mining more rewarding than in highsec, again stating that people who take more more risk, effort and cost should be rewarded.

Looking further back we see PI gives morereward in null than highsec as does exploration. Are we seeing a pattern yet?

CCP are slowly revamping the whole game so that you get more reward for greater risk/effort/cost. So, everything you have said about risk/reward is just flat out wrong.


Industry revamp
HS industry is unchanged...it costs more to produce stuff, the great thing about that is, you just roll that back into the price of the product.,

Refining
Requires more to get the same output, again, you just roll the cost back into the price of the final product. No change.

Ore changes
Requires more to get the same output, again you just roll the additional cost back into the price of the final product. No change.

PI/Moon mining/Exploration is based on "lore" related scarcity, more development in HS means Less resources, less undiscovered stuff. There is no difference in Risk associated with HS or NS. PI infrastructure cost the same no matter where you put it, you need the same ships to move it around, and said ships are quite kill-able in all regions of space. Same applies to Exploration as well.

But keep imagining that its because of risk/reward.

Do you know why CCP changed any of the stuff you listed.

Industry Revamp.
So NS could better produce on site instead of importing from HS with better time efficiency
Refining
So NS could better move larger ores around without depending on Gunmining to facilitate easier transport of product
Ore Changes
So NS could better source low ends at home instead of sourcing the bulk of building product from HS.

Nothing to do with Risk/Reward, everything to do with facilitating NS's ability to be able to reliably and efficiently produce product on site with much less dependency on HS.

As a HS producer, since Industry changes/Refine Changes, I actually earn more ISK today than I did before, and I still make more ISK than NS producers (because the market is much much larger has higher turnover). So nah nothing to with Risk/Reward there, and I will earn even more ISK once the ore changes iron themselves out.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#652 - 2015-05-01 16:56:11 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Perhaps we can remove all the ISK that was created by the Tech imbalance, I hope he means this...


Oh and lets get rid of T2 BPOs too and remove ISK from anyone who has them since it is an unfair advantage people got just because they were around at the time.

Lets also ban direct trading, and money transfers, because its not fair if some folks know people with deep pockets and didn't actually have to put in the effort themselves to get isk or items.

Also we should totally rebalance mineral distribution, its totally not fair that I have to source from NS to get R64s, and Mega/Zyd/Merc.

Heck we should also get rid of PLEX because its not fair that some dude irl makes $30/hr and I don't make anything because I am a no life with no job. Why should he be able to RMT ISK, when I have to work for it.

I know lets just make everything equal so it doesn't matter where you play the game, everything is the same. We can even take isk out of the game because its totes not fair that some folks have more than me, they should have to build everything they want to use, If I can do it so can they.



I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Mario Putzo
#653 - 2015-05-01 17:04:02 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"


Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#654 - 2015-05-01 17:21:52 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"


Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.


And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count.
Mario Putzo
#655 - 2015-05-01 17:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"


Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.


And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count.


Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed Roll not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days?

Im sure it was Goons who got Tech buffed in the first place to right. Exposing the Dyspro Dupers prior to the rebalance of T2 build requirements. I imagine the Mittani himself spoke directly with Hilmar and made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or something like that?

(CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#656 - 2015-05-01 17:56:10 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

I agree with your points here, but what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of baltec1 calling for the reduction of Incursions and level 4's in hisec due to some risk/reward imbalance when his alliance benefited from the most inane imbalance any game company could have created. They had to work to maintain that imbalance in their favour and to their credit they did say it was a bad thing. You should see my reaction in real life to the words "social justice!"


Eh he doesn't care about imbalance, "We're not here to ruin the game, We're here to ruin your game" the Goonplatoon motto.


And the irony is we have forced CCP to close so many game imbalances and exploits we have lost count.


Fun fact, people were complaining about Tech bottleneck back in 2010, while GSF was busy being Kartooned. Before that people complained about Dyspro bottleneck. But ya it was Goons that got it changed Roll not the other 350K people outside the CFC saying, hey wait a minute this is fucky. How much isk does an ego trip cost now a days?

Im sure it was Goons who got Tech buffed in the first place to right. Exposing the Dyspro Dupers prior to the rebalance of T2 build requirements. I imagine the Mittani himself spoke directly with Hilmar and made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or something like that?

(CCP used to use these little things as content drivers, until they realized artificial content creation was lame compared to letting the players make their own reasons)


We were the ones that went and took almost all of them and then said "we warned you now nerf us". Thats the difference between us and you. You are willing to keep game imbalances when you make personal gain. We tell CCP its broken then force it to be fixed. As you said, we are here to destroy your game not the game.
Mario Putzo
#657 - 2015-05-01 18:15:27 UTC
Sitting on them when they were changed does not equate to being responsible for getting them changed.

Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you, only thing any off you have said is that they make more isk than something else, which is basically Whaaa they make more isk than me...lots of things are like that in EVE. EVE isn't fair and not everything is equal, and there is nothing stopping you from doing them yourself, it is not out of reach for anyone, it is not limited to only certain people. Ergo there is no imbalance, except inside your own head.

TECH however was imbalanced because of its requirements in building, and its disproportionate regional seeding, it was heavily limited in accessibility, not even remotely the same thing.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#658 - 2015-05-01 18:40:14 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you


You've been shown (by people who have experience with PVE, and by one of your own links), so lets not pretend like anything anyone says is going to matter. You and I both know that a CCP dev could come here and say it was so and you wouldn't listen.

That's ok, it's not important that everyone admit the truth, what's important is the truth be told and if some what to deny facts, that's them.

It's not about "fair" (as has been explained to you), it's about a broken system that creates distortions that cause bad things to happen. At the top of that heap is FW missions, then high sec incursions, then high sec lvl 4 missions (mainly 'farming' but also the SOE and Thukker LP stores), the the blitzability of low sec lvl 5 missions (which defeats the purpose of having lvl 5 missions in low sec, a mission that pay 90k LP should be completable in 3 minutes).

In your zeal to protect high sec (or in your display of prejudiced hatred for sov null, evidenced by how you always default to talking about null rather than the game as a whole) blinds you to the issues: real PVE players know there is a problem even if we are making use of the unbalanced stuff.

I'll simply point out again that the main defenders of the status quo in this discussion are not PVE players ,in fact most of you claim to have never run incursions at all. How in hell could you know whether or not a thing is broken if you don't even try to experience it?
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#659 - 2015-05-01 18:41:46 UTC
Would like to see CCP drop in here and say few things about incursions .

I think i remember them saying and showing some data that isk influx was ok.

But i am more interested in what they think on subject and isk amount potential per person especially in high sec incursion.

if there is a problem?

Part of it would be that incursion are static never changing sites with joke AI that makes em easy to grind with presetup ships that never need to change.

There is no incursion to speak off rats are in sites making me believe that grinding them was always intended by CCP.

So would like them drop a line or two about incursions.


You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#660 - 2015-05-01 18:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mario Putzo wrote:
Sitting on them when they were changed does not equate to being responsible for getting them changed.

Once you can explain the imbalance of incursions maybe ill agree with you, only thing any off you have said is that they make more isk than something else, which is basically Whaaa they make more isk than me...lots of things are like that in EVE. EVE isn't fair and not everything is equal, and there is nothing stopping you from doing them yourself, it is not out of reach for anyone, it is not limited to only certain people. Ergo there is no imbalance, except inside your own head.

TECH however was imbalanced because of its requirements in building, and its disproportionate regional seeding, it was heavily limited in accessibility, not even remotely the same thing.


Highsec has access to a huge isk printing machine that is incursions that people in dek do not. Said incursions can be run in highsec more or less all day every day while in dek they pop up a few times a year. Said incursions provide twice as much isk as the very best income possible in dek which having none of the risks, effort or even cost. You dont even have most of the negative impacts from incursions that happen in null which means that they need to be removed from important null systems.

Its odd how you can view tech moons as being unbalanced yet you can see the same thing when it comes to highsec activities that are just as broken.