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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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Author
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#621 - 2015-05-01 12:28:11 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it...


This is what insanity looks like. In order to make things "work" in your head you have to make up some conspiracy theory so taht everything fits. So thin you can lie to yourself and pretend that people commenting on the game's structure and situation are doing it out of some greed related to imaginary space money....

It's just that stupid. And it reeks of projection, because usually it's the conspiracy theorists themselves who are actually conspiring to make people change something..

The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#622 - 2015-05-01 13:00:28 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).


i've found it funny for a long time that those who frame the discussion as being 'highseccers versus nullsec/lowseccers' are evidently incapable of looking to the left and to the right of themselves
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#623 - 2015-05-01 13:19:20 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).


i've found it funny for a long time that those who frame the discussion as being 'highseccers versus nullsec/lowseccers' are evidently incapable of looking to the left and to the right of themselves


Or realizing that likely a full third of highsec is alts. Probably closer to half, in all honesty.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Inora Sera
Sera's Varangians
#624 - 2015-05-01 13:19:51 UTC
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#625 - 2015-05-01 13:22:47 UTC
Inora Sera wrote:

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.


So, rather than, you know, actually being able to reasonably shoot these farmers, the barrier to entry should not only be 60 people or so, but also we'd be basically afk while doing it? Are you kidding?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Inora Sera
Sera's Varangians
#626 - 2015-05-01 13:38:10 UTC
Yeah, didn't say it was the best idea ever but it's still a way

I mean, there's so many ways to Meta in EvE, infiltrate their channels, their coms, to know when they're almost done so you don't have to afk for an hour, or whatever time it takes to do one of those.

And who knows, someone does take the time and pulls it off a few time, might make them cry enough to make CCP investigate and realize it's out of whack.

I mean if some people are willing to shoot monuments for hours at a time when they're unhappy with CCP... what's a little AFK to "save the game" right ?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#627 - 2015-05-01 13:49:08 UTC
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


It doesn't work that way.

Even if it did, it's a mistake to think that desiring a healthy and proper balance and restoration of this game's risk/reward scheme has anything to do with wanting to kill someone's precious payout (speaking for myself only, the OP can speak for herself). There is nothing wrong with people fleeting up and making some isk.

The problem comes when that kind of activity is too safe compared to other activities. There are pve activities that pay more than high sec incursions (by far in some cases), but ALL of them require the individual pilot gaining the reward to take more measurable risk. Even FW missions are more risky, the imbalance there is that the missions are doable with small ships so while risk exists, it's not high enough to balance out the outrageous income potential.
Iam The Flash
Doomheim
#628 - 2015-05-01 14:40:41 UTC
oh shut up

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#629 - 2015-05-01 14:42:41 UTC
Iam The Flash wrote:
oh shut up



oh look its mr grumpy

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Mario Putzo
#630 - 2015-05-01 15:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Jenn aSide wrote:
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


It doesn't work that way.

Even if it did, it's a mistake to think that desiring a healthy and proper balance and restoration of this game's risk/reward scheme has anything to do with wanting to kill someone's precious payout (speaking for myself only, the OP can speak for herself). There is nothing wrong with people fleeting up and making some isk.

The problem comes when that kind of activity is too safe compared to other activities. There are pve activities that pay more than high sec incursions (by far in some cases), but ALL of them require the individual pilot gaining the reward to take more measurable risk. Even FW missions are more risky, the imbalance there is that the missions are doable with small ships so while risk exists, it's not high enough to balance out the outrageous income potential.


You gotta get off that crutch friend. Risk/Reward is not a balance metric...it can't be because it is an immeasurable. Risk/Reward is a catch all buzz phrase that lames use to attempt to garner favor in a discussion nothing more, nothing less. Again, the answer is not changing incursions (they are a capped event) the answer is making other activities more economically viable by comparison, so people can say, "Man I never get into incursion fleets, guess ill go do this other equally lucrative event".

I think incursions are a great system, and it would be nice to see CCP expand the system itself into other areas of space. Group play should always earn more than solo play. I mean if Incursions were generating 200m/hr by soloists I could see an issue. However people seem to completely ignore the hour+ it takes to set up a fleet, where folks earn effectively 0isk/hr. So lets just say in a 2 hour span, 1 hour @ 0isk/hr setting up a fleet, 1 hour at 200m/hr = 100m/hr combined, in 2 hours in Missions I can get 150-160m, in 2 hours in anoms I can get 120-140m (more if I team up with 1 other pilot no more than that then its more like 240-260m)

But you need to get off risk/reward, it has never been used as a balance metric, and it never will be. The only reason changes occur is because of an inadequacy in regional living. (why industry and mining changes were tweaked in NS, because they were previously lacking in terms of providing for the region)

One good way to do this would be to change bounty splits. Allow more pilots to work together before splitting bounties takes place. This facilitates faster group clearing as an option, netting more isk/hr for the whole group, while still allowing soloists to maintain current levels of income. Perhaps trial it by extending it to a Squad of people first, meaning for anom running 10 people can get 80m/hr at the same time (although this value would increase due to faster clear times).
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
Auric Transition
#631 - 2015-05-01 15:41:46 UTC
I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.

I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.

So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#632 - 2015-05-01 15:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Of course you are spinning, this is what you people are playing for, when you moan that the best null sec system can support 10 people at most. This is what you people have been asking for in terms of making it worthwhile to be in 0.0 and if you can get hisec missions reduced to level 3's and Incursions removed then you win even more. Of course its not set in stone, but they have it in mind don't they. Talk about wanting the cake and eating it...


This is what insanity looks like. In order to make things "work" in your head you have to make up some conspiracy theory so taht everything fits. So thin you can lie to yourself and pretend that people commenting on the game's structure and situation are doing it out of some greed related to imaginary space money....

It's just that stupid. And it reeks of projection, because usually it's the conspiracy theorists themselves who are actually conspiring to make people change something..

The bolded part is the best part. "We" are winning already, we've got afkable anoms in null sec for steady income AND high sec alts for making the better Incursion isk (while occupying incursion fleet positions and laughing at the high sec types in the wait list).



Well I am not the one telling everyone how good I am at PvE in almost every thread I post in, neither do I tell people they are mad if they disagree with me, like your favourite of suggesting those that disagree with you are on meds or something similar. Neither do I look at the max income one can make from level 4's and compare that to a afk method of running anoms and stating that Level 4's are too good.

You, baltec1 and a number of others go on and on like broken record players about level 4's in hisec and incursions being out of kilter, that smacks of an agenda.

But yeah I am mad, obviously... CoolRoll

EDIT: As for making the point that many people who are in null sec have mission/incursion running alts, what of it, many alliances have CTA's that if you turn up after they have gone you are required to not do anything in game, so having the ability to play somewhere else just seems like commons sense. Does not bother me in the slightest, good luck to them, I really don't see what the issue is?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Mario Putzo
#633 - 2015-05-01 15:48:41 UTC
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.

I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.

So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all.


Making isk in eve is generally boring as balls. The nice thing about Incursions is you know there are X number of pilots equally as bored as you are!

I never done them because I don't like waiting for things to get rolling. Ive tried to get involved in them, but honestly hour+ of waiting while FC or w/e goes over everyones fit, and pieces together optimal ******* sucks. Id rather just mission than sit in a station waiting for optimal to get set up. Ill take 80m over station spinning anyday of the week, and twice on sundays since I actually get that day off....most of the time.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#634 - 2015-05-01 15:48:49 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Inora Sera wrote:
So i confess i jumped about 15 pages because bleh... so this might have come up, but whatever.

Been watching RnK vids lately, and there was one where they were doing incursion runs in nul, mostly showing the Uroborus one.
So they we're saying that if you wanted to be paid, you needed at least 40 people and at most 70, otherwise you got **** rewards.

So i checked the journal description of it and in HS it seems it's 40 to 80, then the payout drops dramatically up to like nothing at all at 100 peeps.

If you really want to screw them over, just gather a fleet of 60 haters and jump into their Plex while they're doing it with **** fit T1 cruisers and wait in the room before the mother.

Shouldn't that kill all their precious payout or has that system been changed since ?


It doesn't work that way.

Even if it did, it's a mistake to think that desiring a healthy and proper balance and restoration of this game's risk/reward scheme has anything to do with wanting to kill someone's precious payout (speaking for myself only, the OP can speak for herself). There is nothing wrong with people fleeting up and making some isk.

The problem comes when that kind of activity is too safe compared to other activities. There are pve activities that pay more than high sec incursions (by far in some cases), but ALL of them require the individual pilot gaining the reward to take more measurable risk. Even FW missions are more risky, the imbalance there is that the missions are doable with small ships so while risk exists, it's not high enough to balance out the outrageous income potential.


You gotta get off that crutch friend. Risk/Reward is not a balance metric...it can't be because it is an immeasurable. Risk/Reward is a catch all buzz phrase that lames use to attempt to garner favor in a discussion nothing more, nothing less. Again, the answer is not changing incursions (they are a capped event) the answer is making other activities more economically viable by comparison, so people can say, "Man I never get into incursion fleets, guess ill go do this other equally lucrative event".

I think incursions are a great system, and it would be nice to see CCP expand the system itself into other areas of space. Group play should always earn more than solo play. I mean if Incursions were generating 200m/hr by soloists I could see an issue. However people seem to completely ignore the hour+ it takes to set up a fleet, where folks earn effectively 0isk/hr. So lets just say in a 2 hour span, 1 hour @ 0isk/hr setting up a fleet, 1 hour at 200m/hr = 100m/hr combined, in 2 hours in Missions I can get 150-160m, in 2 hours in anoms I can get 120-140m (more if I team up with 1 other pilot no more than that then its more like 240-260m)

But you need to get off risk/reward, it has never been used as a balance metric, and it never will be. The only reason changes occur is because of an inadequacy in regional living. (why industry and mining changes were tweaked in NS, because they were previously lacking in terms of providing for the region)



Let CCP say that. And no on said antyhting about risk/reward being a 'balance metric'. It's not, it's a core gameplay factor, basically the reason for playing. And ccp (probably inadvertently) knocked it out of whack. They replicated the high sec lvl 5 situation , but worse because high sec incursions don't even have the balancing feature of burnt agent standings as a consequence.

While imbalances have always existed, the current one didn't until after 2008. Before that and with the exception of the lvl 5 mission bug, if you as an individual pilot wanted "more/better" pve, you have to risk your ship to other player intervention (ie leave high sec) for that to happen. And that was a good thing, because dodging other players is WAY more interesting gameplay than just "fight off stupid npcs" ever could be.

High Sec incursions are just one of the symptoms of the post 2008/9 imbalances, there is also FW missions (WAY more income than even high sec incursions, all for the price of replacing a stealth bomber ever few days), lvl 5 capital blitzing (which was further imbalanced by the same drone mod and fight bonus application changes that created Skynetting) and the unnecessary buffing of mid level combat exploration loot tables (mid level invuls being better loot than ANY x-tpe mods in existence).

TBH it doesn't seem like you have enough knowledge of PVE to even understand the imbalances, and yet you feel confident enough to opine about it. I'd suggest learning more, then forming an opinion.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#635 - 2015-05-01 15:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.

I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.

So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all.


I grind through it because I like the isk and the community I fly with. But yea, they are boring as hell unless someone falls asleep or (now) rare contest happens. CCP tends to do a "COSMOS" when it comes to pve, put it out there, iterate on it a bit, then abandon it. Which is why we're seeing "Drifters" rather than anything else.

That's bad, because while PVE isn't the focus of the game (thank space-God), it has far reaching influences of consequences on the rest of the game, and right now to many of those influences are bad.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#636 - 2015-05-01 15:55:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.

I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.

So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all.


I grind through it because I like the isk and the community I fly with. But yea, they are boring as hell unless someone falls asleep or (now) rare contest happens. CCP tends to do a "COSMOS" when it comes to pve, put it out there, iterate on it a bit, then abandon it. Which is why we're seeing "Drifters" rather than anything else.

That's bad, because while PVE isn't the focus of the game (thank space-God), it has far reaching influences of consequences on the rest of the game, and right now to many of those influences are bad.


I look forward to a Drifter reading some of your posts...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
Auric Transition
#637 - 2015-05-01 15:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ma'Baker McCandless
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
I imagine the seed that makes people rail against incursions is the same that I feel about them.

I find these "25 man raids" (to borrow a comparison) to be awful and boring. They are tediousness defined, and yet they are very lucrative.

So, I choose not to take the money. However, it is not a good sign that in a game (you know , for fun), one of the most lucrative activities is no fun at all.


I grind through it because I like the isk and the community I fly with. But yea, they are boring as hell unless someone falls asleep or (now) rare contest happens. CCP tends to do a "COSMOS" when it comes to pve, put it out there, iterate on it a bit, then abandon it. Which is why we're seeing "Drifters" rather than anything else.

That's bad, because while PVE isn't the focus of the game (thank space-God), it has far reaching influences of consequences on the rest of the game, and right now to many of those influences are bad.


Its just..... the kind of game that Incursions are is the kind I just couldnt face in WoW when I left that.

I just...ugh. Its not EvE to me. Its not interacting with a living universe. Almost any other aspect of PvE can be and often is. Site-hunting and exploring and worm-hole diving can all bring you into the world.

But Incursions just seem to me to be a case of "Sit here and basically let the cash roll in." I just... I just guess maybe EvE has changed and Ive been left behind.

Thank goodness I have my extortion racket and my family's other activities to fall back on.

PS Dont get me wrong, Im all in favour of it if people like it. I just think people wish there was some thing like it that the rest of us could get in on.
Mario Putzo
#638 - 2015-05-01 16:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Jenn aSide wrote:

Let CCP say that. And no on said antyhting about risk/reward being a 'balance metric'. It's not, it's a core gameplay factor, basically the reason for playing.


Actions speak louder than words. You know what CCP did to HS incursions 6 months ago...they buffed them by roughly 33%. The isk/hr didn't change much, only the frequency in which one can run them. That is a pretty dank buff. ~33% more uptime.

Risk/Reward is not a factor, it is not a mechanic. It is an opinion that some players have, and some players don't. Last I checked the reason for playing is because it is a video game nothing more, nothing less. The reason I play is because it fills time, and I have met some really chill folks that I like to socialize with. Risk/Reward isn't even in the back of my mind when I play. Its just pixels, pixels have no value, I can't cash out ISK for real world cash, the only reason to play is because you are paying for a subscription with either cash, or time.

Thats it. There is no such thing as risk/reward. It is a ~narrative~ you wrap yourself up in, to feel like you are justified in doing X event over Y, it has 0 practical impact on the game, and is not remotely "the reason for playing". Many folks have different reasons for playing, which ultimately come down to more or less 1 common theme. Blowing up pixels with other pixels be they NPC or PC controlled.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#639 - 2015-05-01 16:09:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I am not the one telling everyone how good I am at PvE in almost every thread I post in, neither do I tell people they are mad if they disagree with me, like your favourite of suggesting those that disagree with you are on meds or something similar. Neither do I look at the max income one can make from level 4's and compare that to a afk method of running anoms and stating that Level 4's are too good.[/quote[

You, baltec1 and a number of others go on and on like broken record players about level 4's in hisec and incursions being out of kilter, that smacks of an agenda.


Edit: I was going to respnd to this but their only so many ways one can tell someone they don't like them and that they think they have"problems" before one says "why bother?".

Quote:

But yeah I am mad, obviously... CoolRoll

EDIT: As for making the point that many people who are in null sec have mission/incursion running alts, what of it, many alliances have CTA's that if you turn up after they have gone you are required to not do anything in game, so having the ability to play somewhere else just seems like commons sense. Does not bother me in the slightest, good luck to them, I really don't see what the issue is?


Of course you don't, that much is obvious. Those 'atls' are making isk either in safety (high sec) or in "inconsequential risk" situations (faction warfare missions, who cares if you lose a purifier every other day when you can make 200 mil per hour?) are bad for the game.

When we rat in null with a PVE ship, or we do the same in wormhole space, or we make a lvl 5 running fleet or incursion fleet in lwo sec, we are PAYING for the isk/items/wealth we are putting into the EVE economy by risking pve fit ships we'd rather not lose. This creates content for everyone, "stress" for us PVErs (that makes the rewards we gain against the best efforts of the "PVPrs" that much sweeter) and opportunities for the pvp guys who try to stop us.

That's competition, and that's balance. Making mad isk in safety or when we don't care if the ship explodes, that's un-balanced(how do you cut a groups supply line off when that supply is invulnerable and protected by CONCORD?). I'm going to keep doing it as long as CCP makes that stuff available, but the difference between you and me is that I'm honest enough to call these things what they actually are: not the best gameplay EVE can offer.
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
Auric Transition
#640 - 2015-05-01 16:10:14 UTC
Perhaps risk/reward should be titled

Do You Like The Gamble?!

http://righteousfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/god_gamblers_gal.jpg