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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1361 - 2014-12-21 00:59:04 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
An area of effect doomsday really excels at roflstomping everything on grid. Doesnt mean its balanced or even a good idea.


It's also an order of magnitude's difference to what is being discussed here. Gross exaggeration does not help your case.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1362 - 2014-12-21 01:08:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
An area of effect doomsday really excels at roflstomping everything on grid. Doesnt mean its balanced or even a good idea.


It's also an order of magnitude's difference to what is being discussed here. Gross exaggeration does not help your case.


I think you will find i drew no comparison.

I just illustrated a situation where ambitious design decisions are made but failed to have the required foresight. I realise this is very hard concept for you to understand. Dont exert yourself over it. I was really commenting for people with a higher functional capacity.
Lug Muad'Dib
Funk'in Hole
#1363 - 2014-12-21 01:08:57 UTC
I still don't see why D-Scan immunity isn't a stupid mechanic and we still don't know the drawback.
Helene Fidard
CTRL-Q
#1364 - 2014-12-21 01:15:55 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Dude, do you think you guys could rebalance a ship class without introducing a new gimmick attribute that subverts core gameplay mechanics?

I for one am eagerly awaiting the update where the absence of gimmickry itself becomes the gimmick.

Hey! I don't know about you

but I'm joining CTRL-Q

Mei Khlolov
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1365 - 2014-12-21 01:19:50 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

I think you will find i drew no comparison.

I just illustrated a situation where ambitious design decisions are made but failed to have the required foresight. I realise this is very hard concept for you to understand. Dont exert yourself over it. I was really commenting for people with a higher functional capacity.


Its a good thing smart people like you make all the decisions for us dumb folks
MachineOfLovingGrace
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1366 - 2014-12-21 01:29:13 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


I'm really confused you think this is overall a good idea. People don't work that way in my experience.

Today I was on the recieving end of a similar situation. DSCAN a small plex, Tormentor inside, activate gate, the exact moment I cannot cancel warp anymore (really good timing, I must admit) *poof* a Griffin appears on DSCAN. Permajammed, gf. A few minutes later, warp into a plex with a single ship on DSCAN - 2 Griffins. Permajammed, gf.

However, the presence of cloaking devices does *not* change my evaluation of risk. I am exactly as risk-averse as I was before. I am, however, frustrated that I had to watch my ship killed without any chance or fight at all, and a few new people on my red "ECM w*cough*e, don't engage" list. I will think very hard to do any PVP with these guys in local. Because I'd be stupid If I didn't. So less fights for me and for them in the long run. Granted, I'm just one guy, but this effect adds up, I'd think.

I'm not whining about ECM (death to ECM, though), I'm trying to make the point - You will *not* change people by game mechanics. If they are so risk averse that they do not engage in certain situations, forcing this situations on them will get them to a) work hard to get enough information (in this dicussion that would be more alts/scouts needed, probing, etc.) or b) they will just stop doing the risky thing, if this doesn't work or becomes too tedious. You will just make the game worse for those people. At *best*, you'll keep a zero sum of player satisfaction. I know that I do what I can to avoid cloakies (and will do with recons), but if it becomes too tedious of forces me into a playstyle I don't like - I'll stop doing this. This is only a game, after all.
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1367 - 2014-12-21 01:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jon Joringer
Whoa -- immune to directional scanning?! That's really strong and makes the idea of soloing in a combat recon pretty tantalizing.

EDIT: also, prefer the strength bonus on the Pilgrim. It's a pretty deadly ship to suddenly find uncloaked next to you.. but it has to uncloak right next to you, which takes patience, positioning, etc. Range seems a little much, but it's still slow as ****, so maybe it's not such a big deal.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#1368 - 2014-12-21 02:37:25 UTC
Also might notice that this doesn't change a thing in WH sites since the current meta is to use an insta warp sabre that snares you just as surely as any Lachesis or Arazu.
As it is an Arazu / lach has normally a 60km point range with a RF point that costs a 140mils a pop, you need heat & boosts to get further (72km's with heat), any other point has 'only' 56/67,5km base range.

Obviously normal 'caught from the site' -scheme doesn't involve booster alts because they would already have to be in the system to provide boosts for the points so 72km's is the absolute maximum you can squeeze out from a point range without rigs, implants or other special factors that I might have forgotten to mention.

That was to clear up some of the '100km Lach point' drama lamas.

Also current EHP in any reasonably fast moving Arazu fit is somewhere in 30k ehp (lach has about 51k in shield fit) which isn't much when we're talking about PvP buffer fits.
The furious DPS of an Arazu is somewhere between non existent and laughable, lachesis does significantly better on the DPS front but medium rails only have around 40km's maximum range without T2 ammo (with a super gimped dps) so you still aren't going to be killed from a maximum point range.
Also a lach has a current max MWD speed range of 1500m/s which with a 6,7s align time means that running from a Lach really shouldn't be your main concern assuming you know how to run from a point and assuming that the Lach didn't land under 27km's from you to use it's scram.

Also currently Arazu with RF point fit goes for around 400mils and Lachesis is in the same ball bark so it's not like maximum range fitted gal recons are suddenly going to be everywhere considering how easy they are to kill.


Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#1369 - 2014-12-21 03:15:34 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I predict Ishtars: Online will become Combat Recons: Online.


Still better than Ishtars Online.


ANYTHING is better than Ishtars Online. Cool

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1370 - 2014-12-21 04:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Automatic D-scan immunity for combat recons, the more I think about it, is a terrible idea.

Not only does it hurt solo play, but you get hac resists and people thinking they will be forced to fit probe launchers to their vessels everytime if they don't wish to warp to somewhere that is camped by a hundred force recons. You are basically forcing people into certain ship fittings to avoid getting caught, cloaked vessels as a person pointed out, have to maneuver into position carefully in order to not get caught. FW plexes full of force recons, thanks for ruining fw.

You do not understand player behavior completely? Understandable. But this half-thought up idea means that someone at CCP hasn't really been paying attention to player behavior at all. Certainly havn't been playing the game on TQ TO understand at any rate.
This idea lacks any application of foresight, a gross failure of game design.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1371 - 2014-12-21 04:44:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:

rofl, its called clicking your mouse button.


Well, that's what you say, but it's a pretty big coincidence if you can be clicking d-scan literally constantly and spot the guy when he randomly pops in. I honestly doubt that you do that literally once a second, every second. If so I'd like to see your CTS surgery scars, lol.

Now, I would easily believe that wormholers use d-scan bots, however. I've known that to be a thing for a long time, and I suspect having that taken away from them is a large portion of why some are so upset about this.

Well this just says that there need to be MANY more ways to mess with d-scan. Clicking the same button every few seconds for intel is just stupid game design.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1372 - 2014-12-21 04:52:34 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.

Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps.


Gold!












(they'll just spam activate and escape your 'camp')
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1373 - 2014-12-21 04:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Squatdog wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
I am not sure why the dscan immunity is such a big deal. Instead of a Rapier, now i have a reason to fly a Hugin. What case does dscan change having a gang on a plex cloaked vers dscan immune? seriously whats the difference?

And in WHs who the hell is flying around without a cloakie. We just don't fly non cloaks most of the time. I sure as hell aren't going to waste time ratting sleepers in anything smaller than a t3. It would just be far too slow.

Because if I warp to a medium with a slasher in it for a GF, all I have to do is wait a few seconds to know if there is a pilgrim on the other side because he has to decloak PRIOR to me arriving in the plex to be able to lock me. Furthermore, said pilgrim has to be 30km+ (outside of pointrange) away from the beacon to cloak.

Not inside the plex, on the acceleration gate. Where we put our camps.


Gold!












(they'll just spam activate and escape your 'camp')


This dude being caught in a lie is painful enough without people pointing it out squattingmut.

Though it does look like he killed a gnosis of yours recently. Convo me if you want tips on how to slide gates :)
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#1374 - 2014-12-21 05:12:22 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Azzie Stardust
Unimpressed Collectors
#1375 - 2014-12-21 06:24:53 UTC
Dscan immunity is not absolute, recons still probable right? It would be great be able to safe (and load) probe positions in system.
SyntaxPD
PowerDucks
PowerDucks Alliance
#1376 - 2014-12-21 07:02:28 UTC
Levina Windstar wrote:
I like the undetectable feature but I think this will be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too OP in WH.

CCP plz... think about WH too! :/


Agreed. EVE pvp was always built on 2 factors:
1. Ganker's availability to get on target
2. Target's availability to detect ganker soon enough to get out.

So, basically all sides have equal chances and result only depends on player actions. With this future target have no chances at all. Compare it to cloak, that put some disadvantages to your ship (recalibration and not instant cloaking), dscan needs to be balanced, make this a module, finally
Aapir
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1377 - 2014-12-21 09:30:13 UTC
It's been said before but it would make a lot more sense if the huginn and rapier weapons systems would be switched.

As it stands the huginn will be a shield boat with 80km webs that has to be within 10k to apply damage with its main weapon system. The majority of shield comps depend on staying at range so it hardly ever gets to use those weapons. Right now some people just fit smarbombs in the gun slots because if the enemy fleet gets into autocannon range you've already lost the fight

Meanwhile the rapier has a covert ops cloak with which it can get to point blank range before the engagement starts. It can also apply damage perfectly with rapid light missiles to 30km and with heavy missiles to 60km.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1378 - 2014-12-21 10:31:31 UTC
Aapir wrote:
It's been said before but it would make a lot more sense if the huginn and rapier weapons systems would be switched.

As it stands the huginn will be a shield boat with 80km webs that has to be within 10k to apply damage with its main weapon system. The majority of shield comps depend on staying at range so it hardly ever gets to use those weapons. Right now some people just fit smarbombs in the gun slots because if the enemy fleet gets into autocannon range you've already lost the fight

Meanwhile the rapier has a covert ops cloak with which it can get to point blank range before the engagement starts. It can also apply damage perfectly with rapid light missiles to 30km and with heavy missiles to 60km.


No, they shouldn't. The covert ops cloak makes the Rapier viable as a nullsec solo boat. Ranged damage application provided by missiles perfectly fits that concept. Same goes for the pilgrim and its neut range bonus. Ship balancing is actually done VERY well the more you look into it and I generally think that CCP really excells in that field.

D-scan immunity however is a terrible idea since pilots will just be more eager dock up/safe up cloak and less fights will actually happen. But others have said that before.
Arla Sarain
#1379 - 2014-12-21 10:43:01 UTC
I am perplexed at how the D-SCAN invisibility is meant to increase the amount of fights.

If the 2 vexors were alone and if the 2 vexors would have combat wincons that nobody would know about, people would engage them in any case if they knew they could handle 2 vexors.

D-SCAN invisibility just allows you to put more people on grid prior to the fight with ... why the hell do I even bother.

Sure you can fit probes. If you fly some gimped fit in a specific ship. Whatever.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1380 - 2014-12-21 10:48:32 UTC
I might add that force recons at least should get a much bigger cargo hold to really make them viable as solo boats. Especially the pilgrim will need much room fo cap boosters to extend its operational range fitting its role as a recon ship.

This would also give solo pvpers some viable tool while d-scan invisible recons on top of ogb won't exactly make this playstyle more fun in general.