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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Author
Marise Dinah
Fiaskko Enterprises
#1381 - 2014-12-21 10:52:33 UTC
My biggest issue with the D-Scan immunity change is with regards to low sec combat sites. They are already very dangerous as you are getting hammered with NPCs, watching local and trying to incorporate D-Scan into your general gameplay. It's already very easy to get caught out by someone sneaking up on you and this just add another layer of difficulty. However, after considering it from the point of view of someone who is roaming low sec in a very expensive cruiser I think it does seem balanced. My plan is to take one of the combat recons into the sites and give anyone a shock when they come in :)
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1382 - 2014-12-21 11:01:35 UTC
I'm glad I trained into recons recently ;) I think combat recons will also present a good option (again) for solo players ... though I see two major new threats for players on the receiving side:

1. There is now a 2nd class of ships in the game beside bombers who can acquire locks without additional delay when coming out of "cloak" ... the only significant difference is, that they can't control this "cloak" as it is "switched off" automatically on same grid.

2. There was a reason why cloaking in FW plexes was crippled recently, now this mechanic is back. Furthermore, acceleration gate mechanic don't give you intel anymore to decide whether to stay or leave.

Let's see how this works out on TQ, but imo this is big a balance pro ganker.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1383 - 2014-12-21 11:01:45 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Though it does look like he killed a gnosis of yours recently. Convo me if you want tips on how to slide gates :)


It involved the single most incompetent hotdrop I've ever seen.

They bridged in a dozen stealth bombers and a Falcon to kill a Gnosis...then lost four of the stealth bomber and their bait Rupture. Three of the stealth bombers got blown up by station guns.

PRO


Tryaz
Improvised Tactics
#1384 - 2014-12-21 11:07:42 UTC
MachineOfLovingGrace wrote:


I'm really confused you think this is overall a good idea. People don't work that way in my experience.

Today I was on the recieving end of a similar situation. DSCAN a small plex, Tormentor inside, activate gate, the exact moment I cannot cancel warp anymore (really good timing, I must admit) *poof* a Griffin appears on DSCAN. Permajammed, gf. A few minutes later, warp into a plex with a single ship on DSCAN - 2 Griffins. Permajammed, gf.

However, the presence of cloaking devices does *not* change my evaluation of risk. I am exactly as risk-averse as I was before. I am, however, frustrated that I had to watch my ship killed without any chance or fight at all, and a few new people on my red "ECM w*cough*e, don't engage" list. I will think very hard to do any PVP with these guys in local. Because I'd be stupid If I didn't. So less fights for me and for them in the long run. Granted, I'm just one guy, but this effect adds up, I'd think.

I'm not whining about ECM (death to ECM, though), I'm trying to make the point - You will *not* change people by game mechanics. If they are so risk averse that they do not engage in certain situations, forcing this situations on them will get them to a) work hard to get enough information (in this dicussion that would be more alts/scouts needed, probing, etc.) or b) they will just stop doing the risky thing, if this doesn't work or becomes too tedious. You will just make the game worse for those people. At *best*, you'll keep a zero sum of player satisfaction. I know that I do what I can to avoid cloakies (and will do with recons), but if it becomes too tedious of forces me into a playstyle I don't like - I'll stop doing this. This is only a game, after all.


If you want good solo pvp why are you diving FW plexes? Sounds like those people weren't after a gf and you are probably just a nuisance to them. Get out of the nursery and take your frigate for a roam in Null. Catch is on fire at the moment with great targets for a solo pvper.

Narrator of Chronicles of New Eden, the EVE audiobook series. Listen at www.soundcloud.com/chroniclesofneweden

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
Spectre Fleet Alliance
#1385 - 2014-12-21 11:44:47 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Though it does look like he killed a gnosis of yours recently. Convo me if you want tips on how to slide gates :)


It involved the single most incompetent hotdrop I've ever seen.

They bridged in a dozen stealth bombers and a Falcon to kill a Gnosis...then lost four of the stealth bomber and their bait Rupture. Three of the stealth bombers got blown up by station guns.

PRO



You do know we are a NPSI public community where we have a lot of new bros right. If they followed the FC instructions they would have not died. But meh, its a bomber worth what? 50M? Good ship to learn in.

We have fun. A lot of fun. Something most people in eve seem to miss.

Like killing an Ishtar with probes. We also lost a lot of probes, but dude we killed a *Ishtar* with probes. Priceless.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Cable Udan
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1386 - 2014-12-21 12:17:17 UTC
When you get round to blops can they have D-scan immunity too. Pretty please Rise <3
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1387 - 2014-12-21 12:19:19 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

You do know we are a NPSI public community where we have a lot of new bros right. If they followed the FC instructions they would have not died. But meh, its a bomber worth what? 50M? Good ship to learn in.

We have fun. A lot of fun. Something most people in eve seem to miss.

Like killing an Ishtar with probes. We also lost a lot of probes, but dude we killed a *Ishtar* with probes. Priceless.


i get u
Aapir
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1388 - 2014-12-21 12:32:53 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Aapir wrote:
It's been said before but it would make a lot more sense if the huginn and rapier weapons systems would be switched.

As it stands the huginn will be a shield boat with 80km webs that has to be within 10k to apply damage with its main weapon system. The majority of shield comps depend on staying at range so it hardly ever gets to use those weapons. Right now some people just fit smarbombs in the gun slots because if the enemy fleet gets into autocannon range you've already lost the fight

Meanwhile the rapier has a covert ops cloak with which it can get to point blank range before the engagement starts. It can also apply damage perfectly with rapid light missiles to 30km and with heavy missiles to 60km.


No, they shouldn't. The covert ops cloak makes the Rapier viable as a nullsec solo boat. Ranged damage application provided by missiles perfectly fits that concept. Same goes for the pilgrim and its neut range bonus. Ship balancing is actually done VERY well the more you look into it and I generally think that CCP really excells in that field.

D-scan immunity however is a terrible idea since pilots will just be more eager dock up/safe up cloak and less fights will actually happen. But others have said that before.


Unless you are the kind of solo pilot who flies with links and rf point solo pvp still takes place at much closer ranges than fleet fights. Hence the reason for giving the huginn a longer weapon range. I'm also struggling to think of targets than you can kill with the rapier's anemic dps while not relying on the decloak bump to get point before they warp off.
Hard Carnt
Barney Gumble Combat Club
End of Life
#1389 - 2014-12-21 13:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hard Carnt
Will probably cancel my sub for 12 months in the hope that D-scan immunity is removed. Isn't that what cloaking is for?
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1390 - 2014-12-21 14:01:48 UTC
Aapir wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Aapir wrote:
It's been said before but it would make a lot more sense if the huginn and rapier weapons systems would be switched.

As it stands the huginn will be a shield boat with 80km webs that has to be within 10k to apply damage with its main weapon system. The majority of shield comps depend on staying at range so it hardly ever gets to use those weapons. Right now some people just fit smarbombs in the gun slots because if the enemy fleet gets into autocannon range you've already lost the fight

Meanwhile the rapier has a covert ops cloak with which it can get to point blank range before the engagement starts. It can also apply damage perfectly with rapid light missiles to 30km and with heavy missiles to 60km.


No, they shouldn't. The covert ops cloak makes the Rapier viable as a nullsec solo boat. Ranged damage application provided by missiles perfectly fits that concept. Same goes for the pilgrim and its neut range bonus. Ship balancing is actually done VERY well the more you look into it and I generally think that CCP really excells in that field.

D-scan immunity however is a terrible idea since pilots will just be more eager dock up/safe up cloak and less fights will actually happen. But others have said that before.


Unless you are the kind of solo pilot who flies with links and rf point solo pvp still takes place at much closer ranges than fleet fights. Hence the reason for giving the huginn a longer weapon range. I'm also struggling to think of targets than you can kill with the rapier's anemic dps while not relying on the decloak bump to get point before they warp off.


First of all: Flying with links aint solo and personally i wouldn't touch that ****** mechanic. The Huginn can have missiles too but right now it makes a great arty boat. At 20km and with double webs it wil apply full dps in that role. The Rapier on the other Hand lacks the high slots and the second damage bonus to make a good arty boat therefore it`s better off with missiles. Dps isn't that anemic as you said. Especially when you factor in full damage application all the way down to dessies but i leave it to you to eft that yourself.
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#1391 - 2014-12-21 14:12:12 UTC
CCP Rise "rebalancing" amounting to hardly more than tinkering, once again.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1392 - 2014-12-21 14:50:42 UTC
I don't understand how CCP can disregard the gameplay style of so many of their players. D-scan immunity renders the most important tool unrelyable that solo pvpers OR players who generally do stuff on their own anywhere except in highsec have. Why would they furtner limit the ability of these players to circumvent the blob? When i fight in a busy nullsec system i naturally can't deploy probes i have to ping d-scan to know what comes in. With d-scan invisible instalocking recon squads (because that is what we are talking about) less pilots will take the risk of fighting in a busy system at all. Solo plexers won't plex in busy systems, gankers won't kill them due to a few seconds of negligence. Everybody loses. I mean that CCP rise guy is a former player, right? I can only guess that due to his own playstyle he somehow doesn't understand the reality of playing eve apart from big fleet fights. CCP should consider that this is a big part of their playerbase though because obviously they don't which is sad because they will lose subs with these players which is sad because Eve is generally an awesome game.
SPARTACUS VICTORIOUS
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1393 - 2014-12-21 14:58:29 UTC
minmatar ships get the rifter treatment again. why dose CCP hate us minmatar so much Sad
Liura Rurii
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1394 - 2014-12-21 15:02:11 UTC
Usually I do not participate in these forum posts but from own experience and other comments elsewhere I found one glaring question I feel begs answering.

Why do combat recons not have a scan bonus as well as a fitting attribute that make the expanded probe launchers viable?

I mean, it is a recon FFS. If any ship in fleet should be able to sniff out others in safespots this would be it.

It is said that the best weapon to kill a tank is another tank, and likewise with DSCAN immunity these ships should not only be able hide from DSCAN but also be able to find each other more easily.

You could also make it so, that these ships are hidden on DSCAN from every ship except another recon. This would make them stand out compared to T3s.

Looking at real life military, recon units will have superior capabilities in regards to electronics that enable them to hide from and spot enemy units. Recons in eve are more about electronic warfare than reconnaissance, but good recon enables you to set up fights and it is a big part of the game.

Give the Falcon the bonus for the cloak, and give the Rook the bonus for the Expanded Probe launcher. It is not going to make it more OP, but instead open up the role and put it more in line with T3s. Likewise for the other races.

The first comment I got from one of my pilots when I asked him to fly a recon in the future was "Well, then I will just take one of my T3s with a cloak".

If I was to nerf anything with the combat recons, it would be their ability to do DPS. Doing DPS is not something a recon should be focussed on. One of my current Rook fits does 512 DPS within 25km, has 76/86/83/77 resists, 46.6K EHP, does 516m/s and fits two jammers. To me, that is a viable ship in a roaming gang. The DPS is not that much lower than other cruisers, but I can still jam out 2 hostile ships, if primaried, I have some of the higher resists in the gang combined with decent EHP. None of the numbers are overheated and its cap stable. It will break if neuted. I have absolutely no use of it, as a "recon" ship, it is pure fleet support in a brawl.

With the coming changes, this fit will feature even more resists, more EHP, better weapons bonusses and cap! I understand very well, if some people would call this OP.

Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#1395 - 2014-12-21 15:04:56 UTC
Cant wait to see how many die because they think this makes them imune to probes too.
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1396 - 2014-12-21 15:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kmelx
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
I can only guess that due to his own playstyle he somehow doesn't understand the reality of playing eve apart from big fleet fights. CCP should consider that this is a big part of their playerbase though because obviously they don't which is sad because they will lose subs with these players which is sad because Eve is generally an awesome game.


Actually he was a pretty prominent solo pvper called Kil2.

He and a corp mate of mine called Kovorix used to run a podcast and an in game channel called Bringing Solo Back, dedicated like the name says reinvigorating Solo pvp as a thing within eve and he was quite successful at doing this. His PVP videos are still up on Youtube, there are some genuinely good fights in there. Solo in BS and BCs, with some cruisers in there as well.

I used to listen to his podcast a lot, and though I was already a solo PVPer, he and Kovorix inspired me to go out and solo PVP, I used to roam from one end of lowsec to the other looking for goodfights, in all sorts of hulls, but I don't view that playstyle as viable anymore due to the changes to the meta, the increased blobbyness and the changes that have been introduced since he joined CCP.

His roots make it doubly ironic though, that many of the changes he has introduced or failed to object to have made the playstyle he advocated much more difficult, outside of throwaway frigs and destroyers in FW space or nullsec.

Battleship roaming is painful these days, BCs are largely a thing of the past, the meta has changed so that they are rarely used, mostly due to the crazy buffing of cruisers and the warp speed changes which make it painful to roam with these larger ships.

T1 logi is absurdly OP, to the point where you can't break it solo unelss your in a command ship or a BC, most camps or gangs run with multiple T1 logi, larger roaming gangs don't tend to bring T2 logi now, though, where they used to roam with 2 scimis, because they don't want to roam with less reps, so they recruit and bring more people and they bring 4 scythes, it's a change that encouraged blobbing.

Most of the solo and small gang community that I chat with on a regular basis, are deeply dissapointed with him, there are glaring balance issues in the game at the moment, T1 logis, Ishtar's, Geddons, to name just a few, that remain unaddressed despite CCP moving to a release cycle where they could easily take these matters in hand.

Personally I view him as a bit of a hypocrite these days, on the one hand he encouraged solo PVP when he played the game, but now he's working for CCP, he's made the playstyle he promoted something much more difficult. To the point that it is not worth doing in my opinion.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1397 - 2014-12-21 16:07:02 UTC
Kmelx wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
I can only guess that due to his own playstyle he somehow doesn't understand the reality of playing eve apart from big fleet fights. CCP should consider that this is a big part of their playerbase though because obviously they don't which is sad because they will lose subs with these players which is sad because Eve is generally an awesome game.


Actually he was a pretty prominent solo pvper called Kil2.

He and a corp mate of mine called Kovorix used to run a podcast and an in game channel called Bringing Solo Back, dedicated like the name says reinvigorating Solo pvp as a thing within eve and he was quite successful at doing this. His PVP videos are still up on Youtube, there are some genuinely good fights in there. Solo in BS and BCs, with some cruisers in there as well.

I used to listen to his podcast a lot, and though I was already a solo PVPer, he and Kovorix inspired me to go out and solo PVP, I used to roam from one end of lowsec to the other looking for goodfights, in all sorts of hulls, but I don't view that playstyle as viable anymore due to the changes to the meta, the increased blobbyness and the changes that have been introduced since he joined CCP.

His roots make it doubly ironic though, that many of the changes he has introduced or failed to object to have made the playstyle he advocated much more difficult, outside of throwaway frigs and destroyers in FW space or nullsec.

Battleship roaming is painful these days, BCs are largely a thing of the past, the meta has changed so that they are rarely used, mostly due to the crazy buffing of cruisers and the warp speed changes which make it painful to roam with these larger ships.

T1 logi is absurdly OP, to the point where you can't break it solo unelss your in a command ship or a BC, most camps or gangs run with multiple T1 logi, larger roaming gangs don't tend to bring T2 logi now, though, where they used to roam with 2 scimis, because they don't want to roam with less reps, so they recruit and bring more people and they bring 4 scythes, it's a change that encouraged blobbing.

Most of the solo and small gang community that I chat with on a regular basis, are deeply dissapointed with him, there are glaring balance issues in the game at the moment, T1 logis, Ishtar's, Geddons, to name just a few, that remain unaddressed despite CCP moving to a release cycle where they could easily take these matters in hand.

Personally I view him as a bit of a hypocrite these days, on the one hand he encouraged solo PVP when he played the game, but now he's working for CCP, he's made the playstyle he promoted something much more difficult. To the point that it is not worth doing in my opinion.


lol, that's crazy. His videos actually inspired me to start playing Eve again. I made a trial account a few years ago but as many others I just couldn't cope with corp life, hierarchy and forced fleet ops. When i saw his videos i knew there was another way. to play eve. Sombeody should create a time portal and warp a d-scan invisiblble instalocking huginn + lachesis combo in his solo pvp videos to retroactive kill his fun as he will do with ours.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1398 - 2014-12-21 16:31:15 UTC
the recons do need a bit of extra tank but i think the force recon may be getting a bit to much its true in a regular fleet they are primed and nuked but i'm worried about how much stronger this will make a black ops fleet and i'm worried about that because if they become to strong i'm sure CCPs reaction will be to nerf blopsing as a whole rather than look back at the force recons
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1399 - 2014-12-21 16:32:41 UTC
iteration, guys. if they turn out to be overpowered, these ships will almost certainly be getting a 0.1 inertia nerf 6 months down the line.
Boomrider
Perkone
Caldari State
#1400 - 2014-12-21 16:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Boomrider
Kmelx wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
I can only guess that due to his own playstyle he somehow doesn't understand the reality of playing eve apart from big fleet fights. CCP should consider that this is a big part of their playerbase though because obviously they don't which is sad because they will lose subs with these players which is sad because Eve is generally an awesome game.


Actually he was a pretty prominent solo pvper called Kil2.

He and a corp mate of mine called Kovorix used to run a podcast and an in game channel called Bringing Solo Back, dedicated like the name says reinvigorating Solo pvp as a thing within eve and he was quite successful at doing this. His PVP videos are still up on Youtube, there are some genuinely good fights in there. Solo in BS and BCs, with some cruisers in there as well.

I used to listen to his podcast a lot, and though I was already a solo PVPer, he and Kovorix inspired me to go out and solo PVP, I used to roam from one end of lowsec to the other looking for goodfights, in all sorts of hulls, but I don't view that playstyle as viable anymore due to the changes to the meta, the increased blobbyness and the changes that have been introduced since he joined CCP.

His roots make it doubly ironic though, that many of the changes he has introduced or failed to object to have made the playstyle he advocated much more difficult, outside of throwaway frigs and destroyers in FW space or nullsec.

Battleship roaming is painful these days, BCs are largely a thing of the past, the meta has changed so that they are rarely used, mostly due to the crazy buffing of cruisers and the warp speed changes which make it painful to roam with these larger ships.

T1 logi is absurdly OP, to the point where you can't break it solo unelss your in a command ship or a BC, most camps or gangs run with multiple T1 logi, larger roaming gangs don't tend to bring T2 logi now, though, where they used to roam with 2 scimis, because they don't want to roam with less reps, so they recruit and bring more people and they bring 4 scythes, it's a change that encouraged blobbing.

Most of the solo and small gang community that I chat with on a regular basis, are deeply dissapointed with him, there are glaring balance issues in the game at the moment, T1 logis, Ishtar's, Geddons, to name just a few, that remain unaddressed despite CCP moving to a release cycle where they could easily take these matters in hand.

Personally I view him as a bit of a hypocrite these days, on the one hand he encouraged solo PVP when he played the game, but now he's working for CCP, he's made the playstyle he promoted something much more difficult. To the point that it is not worth doing in my opinion.


It's the scourge of the corporate world. The higher ups don't really understand/care about catering to the end customer, all they care about is the bottom line. They then employ aggressive mid level executives who will 'supervise' the development teams by simply pushing them for results, often using intimidation to 'instigate effectiveness'. Rise/Kil2 and Fozzie (a.k.a. Raivi) really want to keep their jobs, the higher ups really want to print more $ and the end result is the mid level dobermans gunning for promotions by incorporating the 'do a noticeable change every other month to keep the subscriptions running, or we'll replace you' approach. So it's not Kil2 or Raivi's fault directly, they are 'just following orders' - problem is, after over 10 years there isn't a whole lot to play with without drastically changing the balance for the worst. And that was the progression of the ridicule - change one thing, crap on everything else. As long as it keeps them in business, secures their jobs and their economists won't complain about the company losing revenue, on the next corporate meeting - this is the way it's going to be.

I already said in this thread that it's us, the subscribed players, who pay CCP's salaries and that our opinion matters - even though they seem to disregard it. And the best way to make them listen to you is not by unloading your frustration on the forums or shooting the statues in trade hubs, but by making them lose their income. Vote with your wallet yo.