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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2361 - 2015-02-06 18:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

You don't know wormholers. We aren't going anywhere and well stuff not showing on DScan? what else is new? Seriously DScan imune makes the lest difference to wormhole corps, if they are not dirty farmers that is.


I dont know all of them, but i used to be one, for a couple of years. Perhaps you're talking about c4 or above where the fleet needed for PvE also provides a certain level of safety. Agreed on that.

For c3 or below though, we are talking solo/duo PvE, very susceptible to dscan-less gankfleets. If for one person to PvE in a c2 for example, another 5 people are needed to guard him, well it defeats the whole point of small-scale operations, which some people are fond of.

And really? dscan makes no difference?? I dont know where you base that remark, from personal experience its the opposite, dscan has saved me more times than i can remember, without it my isk balance would be negative tens of billions.

Dont get me wrong, I dont wish for all this to happen in order to say "I told you so". I wish I am wrong, but I have a Cassandra-type gift, the ability to accurately foresee disasters. Smile

And since I dont see any positive feedback yet, perhaps ill start a new thread about it.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#2362 - 2015-02-06 19:44:13 UTC
Removed a double post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2363 - 2015-02-06 21:11:16 UTC
Aaand my thread was locked as redundant, was told to continue the discussion here.
However, a few people did manage to post constructively, I will try to carry their words here.

Abrazzar wrote:
I believe the d-scan immunity on Recons is good because it further breaks a method of intel gathering and thus allows investigation of the effect unreliable intel gathering has on the game and play styles. This information can then be used in a future development of new or altered intel gathering mechanics.

tl;dr You have to cut the body open for an autopsy.


Thank you! You make a very good point. Some might argue however that tests are what test servers are for, but I think that we could not see the full effects until the change goes live for a while.

Nathan Galbadia wrote:
The definition of Reconnaissance is military observation of a region to locate an enemy or ascertain strategic features.

This is normally done by hidden and undiscovered units. A recon ship should excel at that, or it wouldn't be specialized for recon.

This is good as it allows intel gathering from all sides, which could then lead to more moves made against one another. Conflict and desire for increased power are the driving factors of EVE. Alliances moving against one another create some of the best content in EVE. Gathering intel on one another will generate conflict, either from an alliance finding a vulnerable target or from the recon being discovered.

IMO this can only be a good thing. If someone AFK cloaks in your system, and you all dock up until he leaves, you are missing out on some fun times. This is when you should be planning to counter whatever action the recon ship is there for. The ability to influence actions from other players it what the D-Scan immunity is going to enable. When you see someone enter local and can't scan the ship, docking miners and undocking PVP ships should be your action.


Hibernator X wrote:
It strengthens an entire playstyle: The fleet prober


I believe both posters above comment on the new mechanic's value for large fleet/alliance. A truly valid point. Thank you both.


Keep them coming people. Positive sides to the immunity.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Vyl Vit
#2364 - 2015-02-07 06:34:26 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Aaand my thread was locked as redundant, was told to continue the discussion here.
However, a few people did manage to post constructively, I will try to carry their words here.

Abrazzar wrote:
I believe the d-scan immunity on Recons is good because it further breaks a method of intel gathering and thus allows investigation of the effect unreliable intel gathering has on the game and play styles. This information can then be used in a future development of new or altered intel gathering mechanics.

tl;dr You have to cut the body open for an autopsy.


Thank you! You make a very good point. Some might argue however that tests are what test servers are for, but I think that we could not see the full effects until the change goes live for a while.

Nathan Galbadia wrote:
The definition of Reconnaissance is military observation of a region to locate an enemy or ascertain strategic features.

This is normally done by hidden and undiscovered units. A recon ship should excel at that, or it wouldn't be specialized for recon.

This is good as it allows intel gathering from all sides, which could then lead to more moves made against one another. Conflict and desire for increased power are the driving factors of EVE. Alliances moving against one another create some of the best content in EVE. Gathering intel on one another will generate conflict, either from an alliance finding a vulnerable target or from the recon being discovered.

IMO this can only be a good thing. If someone AFK cloaks in your system, and you all dock up until he leaves, you are missing out on some fun times. This is when you should be planning to counter whatever action the recon ship is there for. The ability to influence actions from other players it what the D-Scan immunity is going to enable. When you see someone enter local and can't scan the ship, docking miners and undocking PVP ships should be your action.


Hibernator X wrote:
It strengthens an entire playstyle: The fleet prober


I believe both posters above comment on the new mechanic's value for large fleet/alliance. A truly valid point. Thank you both.


Keep them coming people. Positive sides to the immunity.
Enamored with our own words, are we?

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2365 - 2015-02-07 08:50:44 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

You don't know wormholers. We aren't going anywhere and well stuff not showing on DScan? what else is new? Seriously DScan imune makes the lest difference to wormhole corps, if they are not dirty farmers that is.


I dont know all of them, but i used to be one, for a couple of years. Perhaps you're talking about c4 or above where the fleet needed for PvE also provides a certain level of safety. Agreed on that.

For c3 or below though, we are talking solo/duo PvE, very susceptible to dscan-less gankfleets. If for one person to PvE in a c2 for example, another 5 people are needed to guard him, well it defeats the whole point of small-scale operations, which some people are fond of.

And really? dscan makes no difference?? I dont know where you base that remark, from personal experience its the opposite, dscan has saved me more times than i can remember, without it my isk balance would be negative tens of billions.

Dont get me wrong, I dont wish for all this to happen in order to say "I told you so". I wish I am wrong, but I have a Cassandra-type gift, the ability to accurately foresee disasters. Smile

And since I dont see any positive feedback yet, perhaps ill start a new thread about it.

Well we are in a C5 now, but we were in a c2-c4. We got dropped all the time even in the c2. By cloaky t3s and bombers. DScan is about as useful as staring at the sun. Right now wtih the warp speed changes, sabers can catch you faster than you can dscan+hit warp in anything that can run even c2s. We have rooks and hugins yet we still find our selves almost 100% using rapiers and falcons mostly because cloaks are better than dscan immunity. It really has changed nothing for us.

And damit what is wrong with not having perfect safety. Get over it. Get use to it. We solo in c3s all the time. We mostly make more than we lose. And really of all places that are affected by this. It has least impact in WHs where the only things that popup on dscan are after your tackled, where a bomber probably works better anyway. The rest has local.

Just look at the killboards, not much combat recons on there at all.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2366 - 2015-02-07 08:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
Vyl Vit wrote:

Enamored with our own words, are we?


so many bytes on your post, no actual value.

I have extensively babbled about the negatives of the immunity so all I am trying to do is find positives, so we can all
have better info, weigh pros/cons and have a better picture of this.

If you think it pointless, feel free to not participate.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#2367 - 2015-02-07 09:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Celestia Via
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

And damit what is wrong with not having perfect safety. Get over it. Get use to it.


Do not misunderstand, this is not about perfect safety. TBH I am totally against perfect safety.
This is about my concern that even the minimal safety dscan provided going to waste, leading people away from
smallscale wspace ops.

Although I dont agree with you 100% on dscan being completely useless, I trust your experience. I do hope you are right, and that this immunity wont play the detrimental role I foresaw.

EDIT: More experience-based input from people involved in FW and Wormholes is invaluable, please spare 5 minutes and tell us your own take on this people. Thanks.

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."

Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#2368 - 2015-02-07 11:33:39 UTC
Continuing from your previous thread.....

Dscan immunity on recons is good..... because ccp said so

/thread
infra52x
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2369 - 2015-02-09 06:33:56 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Celestia Via wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:

You don't know wormholers. We aren't going anywhere and well stuff not showing on DScan? what else is new? Seriously DScan imune makes the lest difference to wormhole corps, if they are not dirty farmers that is.


I dont know all of them, but i used to be one, for a couple of years. Perhaps you're talking about c4 or above where the fleet needed for PvE also provides a certain level of safety. Agreed on that.

For c3 or below though, we are talking solo/duo PvE, very susceptible to dscan-less gankfleets. If for one person to PvE in a c2 for example, another 5 people are needed to guard him, well it defeats the whole point of small-scale operations, which some people are fond of.

And really? dscan makes no difference?? I dont know where you base that remark, from personal experience its the opposite, dscan has saved me more times than i can remember, without it my isk balance would be negative tens of billions.

Dont get me wrong, I dont wish for all this to happen in order to say "I told you so". I wish I am wrong, but I have a Cassandra-type gift, the ability to accurately foresee disasters. Smile

And since I dont see any positive feedback yet, perhaps ill start a new thread about it.

Well we are in a C5 now, but we were in a c2-c4. We got dropped all the time even in the c2. By cloaky t3s and bombers. DScan is about as useful as staring at the sun. Right now wtih the warp speed changes, sabers can catch you faster than you can dscan+hit warp in anything that can run even c2s. We have rooks and hugins yet we still find our selves almost 100% using rapiers and falcons mostly because cloaks are better than dscan immunity. It really has changed nothing for us.

And damit what is wrong with not having perfect safety. Get over it. Get use to it. We solo in c3s all the time. We mostly make more than we lose. And really of all places that are affected by this. It has least impact in WHs where the only things that popup on dscan are after your tackled, where a bomber probably works better anyway. The rest has local.

Just look at the killboards, not much combat recons on there at all.



WE and SOLO dont go well together.......
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2370 - 2015-02-09 12:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Delt0r Garsk
Our corp is small.. So it may be "our" fits, that I then fly solo fairly often, as in one person from corp is online. Most of us have a few accounts, but even then i still solo with one pilot no links, and last time i also forgot drugs. I mostly pad others killboards in this case. But meh.

Today i used a Hugin for the first time since the change. Its pretty good, but i still prefer a cloak to dscan immunity in the WH. Also the smaller CPU makes some of the fits a little tighter.

Oh and we are a little bit schizo, so i sometimes have arguments with myself.


[edit] of course the C5 is different. Not much you can solo in there.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#2371 - 2015-02-11 21:41:19 UTC
I'm just going to voice my opinion here real quick because I have a problem with the changes to the Pilgrim.

I really liked the Pilgrim before these changes took place. I actually liked the fact that it had to more or less operate within 12 to 14km as I thought this really differentiated it's role from that of the Curse.

On the other hand I am really glad that it got a buff but I am saddened that it received a RANGE bonus.

Now with this new change there is basically no reason at all to go anywhere near your target in a Pilgrim, so it has effectively been turned into a kiter.

Yet it is actually quite slow for a kiter

I would much rather have seen it get a boost to it's performance with normal-range energy neutralizers rather than getting a similar range bonus as the Curse.

A simple buff to it's capacitor or it's tank or even it's speed, or all of the above, would have been much better IMO, to make it excel at the role that it had. Now, as a ship, it operates much differently from the way that it used to based on range.

There will be almost no reason to use a dual-prop Pilgrim any more, and there will be much more reason to shield tank it as well.

This is a mistake IMO.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#2372 - 2015-02-11 22:49:24 UTC
leaving the curse as shield tanked is a mistake ..being khanid it doesn't really reflect that at all... even though that was a stated goal in the OP .. weird... a more ashimmu with missiles (TD's instead of webs) approach would make more sense.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Nienna Leralonde
FunkSters
#2373 - 2015-02-18 02:35:11 UTC
curse -op as ****,and not being detectable by scanner its even worse.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#2374 - 2015-02-19 16:57:00 UTC
Yea like all everyone ever does is fly curses... oh wait no they don't. So let me guess you lost a ship? That doesn't make it OP. A ship being effective or a good counter to a particular fleet composition does not make it OP. A ship being a good force multiplier does not make it OP.

These are t2 cruisers, they are suppose to be good.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Mike Flynn
Foxholers
Outfoxed
#2375 - 2015-02-21 14:11:43 UTC
RTSAvalanche wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


Those goals lead us to the following major changes:

  • Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners





  • Well that's just complete and utter bullsh!t...

    As if Solo pvp wasn't hard enough, we can not even rely on our D-Scan now?? somthing that we have relied on for the past 10 years.. You are basicaly breaking around some core mechanics here.
    Faction Warefare has been completely broken since Incarna, now you are telling me that recons with web, neut, damp & ECM bonuses will be able to hide in plain site in FW plexes and there is no conventional way to find them.

    Even if combats work to find them, we would have to do that for every plex...

    I smelt somthing bad in the air when the mobile scan inhib came into game, didn't realise things were going to be this bad.


    POWER CREEP is getting excessive..


    Maybe you just need to turn your boosting alt into a probing alt now lol.
    Caleb Seremshur
    Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
    Parasitic Legion.
    #2376 - 2015-02-22 07:59:06 UTC
    Dun'Gal wrote:
    Continuing from your previous thread.....

    Dscan immunity on recons is good..... because ccp said so

    /thread


    Combat recons don't belong in gated FW plexes.

    Prove me wrong. They're a cheap gimmick ship and way too effective to receive that kind of environmental advantage.