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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1401 - 2014-12-21 16:51:22 UTC
Hard Carnt wrote:
Will probably cancel my sub for 12 months in the hope that D-scan immunity is removed. Isn't that what cloaking is for?


Can i have your stuff? Prob wont be removed.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1402 - 2014-12-21 16:54:00 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

...and what is the drawback they are getting with this? Cloak has targeting delay. Low-sec will be deserted sec. Recons will be first pirates choice if this hit TQ and after a month they will be playing with themselfs. Where is the conflit driver in this? It's one side buff. It's not like you were thinking combat recons are not useable let's make it more popular. Hull is as much popular as community think it is. You may have your opinion about Ishtar, TQ seems to differ. This bonus will be similiar. It won't have anything to do with "recon".

You want D-scan remove ability? Make a module, with harsh fitting so hull won't have superb tank and combat possibilities.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1403 - 2014-12-21 16:56:44 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can i have your stuff? Prob wont be removed.

Then try to probe pirate jumping to system and warping to you with site prescanned. Best wishes for your hull and egg.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Fyery Phoenix
Perkone
Caldari State
#1404 - 2014-12-21 17:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Fyery Phoenix
A lot has been said already, but let me stress this again:

- PvPers will love this (cause they can catch people off guard now)
- PvEers will HATE this (cause even if you know your DScan, it's not going to protect you any longer)

I would suggest the following compromise:

-->> Make the recon ships only non-detectable if they are more than 1 AU away from the scanner. <<--
-->> Give them a DScan Range Bonus (like 30 AU) instead <<--


-> This would still give them a surprise moment when trying to catch people
->They can scan other ships while outside of 1 AU while undetected
-> PvE people can still detect the recon ships when they are very close, but they have to be even more on guard

I really hope CCP will rethink their decision to hide ships from DScan. This would seriously break the game in many places.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#1405 - 2014-12-21 17:36:48 UTC
I myself welcome the days on the Missions & Complexes subforum where people who ask for 'what ship is suited best for lowsec exploration' will get the Answer...


GET A CURSE.






Also:

Love it.
D-Scan makes LowSec pretty much as safe as you can be, unless you do not fck it up of course.
This will add a bit more spice to the game.
And when 2 people drop into local and you only see one ship on d-scan, you already have to assume it's a cloaky and that he will show up with the other dude.
So actually, nothing really new.
Also, keep in mind that in terms of DPS these ships are not to be underestimated, but also far from pwn-mobiles.

Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1406 - 2014-12-21 17:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can i have your stuff? Prob wont be removed.

Then try to probe pirate jumping to system and warping to you with site prescanned. Best wishes for your hull and egg.


That statement illustrates why d-scan immunity will create an environement where everybody safes up before he might get blobbed by scary invisible recons. It will 1) force people to fit an expanded probe launchers which they can't on most pve ships and which is pretty slow due to probe scan time 2) as mentioned make them safe up/dock/cloak immediately when they see a potential threat entering local.

Seriously, you have to give pvers and pvpers alike demanding mechanics to defend themselves from getting caught meaning that there is a margin for error. THIS is what will make fights happen: Overconfidence, the feeling of false security and not the certainty of permanent insecurity which will just lead to a higher level of evasion. Make d-scanning more sophistacted instead of bluntly rendering it useless against a certain class of ships which in terms of security effectively makes it totally useless.

You could give recons the ability to be only detectable at a 15% degree angle. This would actually add an element of skill and planning to the scanning side and to the ambushing side. This is not about personal interest: Blunt d-scan immunity will just make the game worse. If you read this please consider this CCP Rise. The notion that you do may be ridiculous to some but afterall it's worth a try.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#1407 - 2014-12-21 18:04:46 UTC
Buy deadspace loot while it's still affordable :)
Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
#1408 - 2014-12-21 18:05:11 UTC
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

OK...apart from my blood pressure being through the roof, I will attempt to explain the folly in this without the rage....that said,

Cloaky campers....anyone???...is this ringing any bells??? Does anyone else realize what a horrible mechanic this is???? No counter, no solution, you are simply screwed. Might as well pack your bags and move to hi sec. It's not that you can't deploy a scanner...it's that it's not worth the effort.

Seriously, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot are you thinking?!?!?!?!? As if the hunter does not have the advantage to begin with....as a mouse at least you have an opportunity to run with d-scan...now you don't even get that. You cannot be a better mouse, all you can do is leave....this is really, really bad!!!! Please reconsider.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#1409 - 2014-12-21 18:05:35 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

...and what is the drawback they are getting with this? Cloak has targeting delay. Low-sec will be deserted sec. Recons will be first pirates choice if this hit TQ and after a month they will be playing with themselfs. Where is the conflit driver in this? It's one side buff. It's not like you were thinking combat recons are not useable let's make it more popular. Hull is as much popular as community think it is. You may have your opinion about Ishtar, TQ seems to differ. This bonus will be similiar. It won't have anything to do with "recon".

You want D-scan remove ability? Make a module, with harsh fitting so hull won't have superb tank and combat possibilities.



Drawback is that they are visible on grid, unlike cloaked ships.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1410 - 2014-12-21 18:14:25 UTC
Fyery Phoenix wrote:

- PvPers will love this (cause they can catch people off guard now)
- PvEers will HATE this (cause even if you know your DScan, it's not going to protect you any longer)

It's obvious bonus to PvPers. They are like it now, superb change, so fun. In a time they won't have so many targets to shoot, what then? If they can hunt me without any drawbacks why i should take my ship to space? Is this content? Conflict driver? Rise thinks it would change the hull fleet wise. Wrong, it will unbalance whole game. There is no counter-measure. Low-sec is best example here. There are no probes on d-scan when pirates hunts you (if they are they are lame). Fozzie at least build fits around some bonuses and drawbacks. Ok we can put rigs on freighters but it's cost us total EHP before the change.
I didn't read whole thread but
CCP Rise wrote:
Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.

Strong counter-arguments? Anybody can link some? Post not by PvPers. Sometimes i find to post on forum futile. Immunity stays because Rise think it will be very interesting to se how this plays out...

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1411 - 2014-12-21 18:16:29 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Combat Recons will now be permanently undetectable by directional scanners

...and what is the drawback they are getting with this? Cloak has targeting delay. Low-sec will be deserted sec. Recons will be first pirates choice if this hit TQ and after a month they will be playing with themselfs. Where is the conflit driver in this? It's one side buff. It's not like you were thinking combat recons are not useable let's make it more popular. Hull is as much popular as community think it is. You may have your opinion about Ishtar, TQ seems to differ. This bonus will be similiar. It won't have anything to do with "recon".

You want D-scan remove ability? Make a module, with harsh fitting so hull won't have superb tank and combat possibilities.



Drawback is that they are visible on grid, unlike cloaked ships.


This is highly misleading. The demanded Drawback ofc refers to to normal rules not to another rule exception (cloaky hulls). I think what he meant was that d-scan invisibility without locking delay is immensely powerful compared to other unique abilies to evade detection/ambush people. That fact that combat recons get this ability on top of their superior stats make it especially problematic.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1412 - 2014-12-21 18:27:57 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
This is highly misleading. The demanded Drawback ofc refers to to normal rules not to another rule exception (cloaky hulls). I think what he meant was that d-scan invisibility without locking delay is immensely powerful compared to other unique abilies to evade detection/ambush people. That fact that combat recons get this ability on top of their superior stats make it especially problematic.

Exactly what i meant.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1413 - 2014-12-21 18:30:32 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can i have your stuff? Prob wont be removed.

Then try to probe pirate jumping to system and warping to you with site prescanned. Best wishes for your hull and egg.


Maybe ill find the thrill of being surprised entertaining? Not only that but this is almost a non issue with the already available tools(not dscan).

This coming from someone who exclusively solo pvps. Im not afraid of change. This also enables more solo tactics to utilize and defend against. Making the game more exciting and creating new content/counters.
Iebi Vyethar
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1414 - 2014-12-21 18:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iebi Vyethar
I wonder why people get more Loyalty Points when plexing alone rather than getting more when doing it with friends. FW needs to be looked at, especially now when doing anything bigger than small outposts will be close to a death wish if doing it alone.
Ratting in nullsec ? Yeah right Covert HACs COVERT HACS
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1415 - 2014-12-21 18:50:14 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Can i have your stuff? Prob wont be removed.

Then try to probe pirate jumping to system and warping to you with site prescanned. Best wishes for your hull and egg.


Maybe ill find the thrill of being surprised entertaining? Not only that but this is almost a non issue with the already available tools(not dscan).

This coming from someone who exclusively solo pvps. Im not afraid of change. This also enables more solo tactics to utilize and defend against. Making the game more exciting and creating new content/counters.


I "exclusively solo pvp" myself and i tell you that we will have less targets in short notice. Have you read the arguments stated here? People will just not trust their d-scan anymore. As long as people will have the ability to warp/cloak/dock at any given time hightening insecurity will just drive more pilots to do just that. That is why d-san immunity is a good idea in theory but not within the given framework of eve pvp right now.

You have to give people tools that are hard to use so they will eventually drop their guard which will provide the opportunity for an ambush. If you just take away their tools they will just evade you at the highest possible level. That is why a malus for enemy d-scan detection range or angle would lead to much more killing done by recons than with blunt immunity as it is planned now.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1416 - 2014-12-21 18:50:23 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
This coming from someone who exclusively solo pvps. Im not afraid of change. This also enables more solo tactics to utilize and defend against. Making the game more exciting and creating new content/counters.

And my coming from someone who exclusively solo pve, yet you will have adventage. Why? What counter? This change breaks game for me. You can land on grid undetected without targeting delay. Fun for you, not for me. We don't have even chances. It's not the flying, or way of thinking that gave you the advantage, it's OP hull bonus. I have no idea how to defend against, for now.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Robert Parr
Iron Tiger T3 Industries
#1417 - 2014-12-21 19:18:48 UTC
Fine, just fine...you want this then I guess flying combat recon will become more the norm...or you deploy a scanning alt...or you move to hi sec. Didn't want/need that mechanic anywayShocked

The problem here is not so much that this change is to the majority benefit of the pvp player, it's that the vast majority of ALL changes have been to the benefit of the pvp player. In fact, as a pve player the greatest moment has been laughing at all the tears over the recently implemented travel changes (i.e. jump fatigue). Here's a question, when is the last time there have been changes that benefit the pve player??? Please do not bring up those burner missions...that's not pve, it's pvp training (no desire for pvp, yes, I've tried it...I don't like it...yes, I know pvp is everywhere...I choose to minimize my involvment). I suppose the next easiest thing to point to are the buffs to the barges and exhumers. Yeah, that's great...the gankers have to work a little harder...but it does not provide any real additional content for the pve player (except, of course, the middle finger you can give to the ganker from the cockpit of your Skiff as you warp away). When is the last time the pve player was offered anything in terms of real content?? Anyone???....Buler, anyone???

Hey, CCP, there are dedicated pve players...they like (nope, correction, LOVE) to play this game...please throw us a friken bone once in a while (like more than everry 10 years)!!!!!!!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1418 - 2014-12-21 19:34:29 UTC
but pve people are already completely immune to pvp. massive nerfs to your immunity are a good thing.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#1419 - 2014-12-21 19:38:06 UTC
Fyery Phoenix wrote:
A lot has been said already, but let me stress this again:

- PvPers will love this (cause they can catch people off guard now)
- PvEers will HATE this (cause even if you know your DScan, it's not going to protect you any longer)

I would suggest the following compromise:

-->> Make the recon ships only non-detectable if they are more than 1 AU away from the scanner. <<--
-->> Give them a DScan Range Bonus (like 30 AU) instead <<--


-> This would still give them a surprise moment when trying to catch people
->They can scan other ships while outside of 1 AU while undetected
-> PvE people can still detect the recon ships when they are very close, but they have to be even more on guard

I really hope CCP will rethink their decision to hide ships from DScan. This would seriously break the game in many places.


Since you are speaking for pvpers. id just like to clarify that as a pvper this change is really bad.

If i want to catch someone i dont mind putting effort in. The anatomy of a kill often consists of much more than warping to someone and pressing F1. Setting up the kill can often be the most rewarding part.

I dont think an arbitrary mechanic to replace effort and skill is a good way to go.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#1420 - 2014-12-21 19:44:28 UTC
Hard Carnt wrote:
Will probably cancel my sub for 12 months in the hope that D-scan immunity is removed. Isn't that what cloaking is for?


Canceling because you cant handle a bit of an extra challenge. How weak of you. Unless you are trolling, then I said nice troll there.