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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Author
Daevaron Raianor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#461 - 2014-12-18 21:09:13 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Daevaron Raianor wrote:
Please introduce a rig that grants D-scan immunity (for recon only) that gimps locking speed/cpu&pg. As a hull bonus it only adds to the 'misery' of being a small group/solo player due to the limited counterplay, while for blobs its neigh pointless.


Nah, you'll see them when they land on grid.

Its more you landing on their grid that's the cause of my concern
Haelur
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#462 - 2014-12-18 21:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Haelur
I have to agree with a lot of people on this. The implications of not being on D-scan are going to be taken way to far. Every other change I feel was warranted, but when Faction warefare pilots can sit in a plex in combat recons and not get scanned or mission/DED runners cannot even run their sites without having an alt to probe scan every time someone comes in local and be safe is a little ridiculous. Stick with the tank and capacitor buffs.

Adding to my argument, What is the point of Force recons then? Why have a cloak? the locking delay is offset by the fact that a combat recon can just sit off grid...
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#463 - 2014-12-18 21:11:30 UTC
Daevaron Raianor wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Daevaron Raianor wrote:
Please introduce a rig that grants D-scan immunity (for recon only) that gimps locking speed/cpu&pg. As a hull bonus it only adds to the 'misery' of being a small group/solo player due to the limited counterplay, while for blobs its neigh pointless.


Nah, you'll see them when they land on grid.

Its more you landing on their grid that's the cause of my concern


They will be the Spiders of EVE. I cant wait.
Venix
An Eye For An Eye
Phoebe Freeport Republic
#464 - 2014-12-18 21:15:34 UTC
Quote:
Role Bonus:
Cannot be detected by directional scanners


no
AshenShugar01
Van Diemen's Demise
Northern Coalition.
#465 - 2014-12-18 21:16:14 UTC
Not being able to rely on D-Scan = EVE Broken. Shocked

This is an act of complete stupidity and needs to be re-thought out.

EVE players need tools they can rely on to interact with the environment and the community. Taking such a basic fundamental mechanic and making its reliability questionable is a big step in the wrong direction.

Providing one ship class with this kind of immunity makes them completely OP straight away. In fact its game breaking with certain mechanics; if CCP progresses with this lunacy it puts another significant nail in the coffin of small gang/small scale PVP.

Remember when the falcon was OP?? Well the rook will be the new problem.... in fact every combat recon will be a problem.


This is such a bad idea, my respect for the rebalance team for even considering this stupidity has dropped a great deal. You were doing so well too........
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2014-12-18 21:16:37 UTC
D-Scan immunity is just a terrible idea, at least with the cov ops recons there is a chance that you can leave before they can ruin the fight after they decloak, here, they can just sit on grid, still surprise you unless you alt scout with combats every single fight your going to take, but without any of the drawbacks of the cloak's detrimental effect upon locking speed.

The bonus is far too powerful, without any compensating detrimental effect. It will have a seriously deleterious effect on FW and lowsec small gang PVP. It is not a balanced change.
Tex Raynor
The High and Mighty
Carebear Abortion Clinic
#467 - 2014-12-18 21:18:22 UTC
Budrick3 wrote:
Tex Raynor wrote:
Wormhole player here - Awesome changes, especially the d-scan immunity.

Remember folks, what they can use against you you can also use against them. As far as FW goes, good luck locking a frigate with 2-3 warp core stabs anyway using a combat recon.

Combat probes should still be able to detect combat recons as far as I understand it, so there is at least that.

Another thing people can do is fit up some sort of defensive mods on their PVE boats such as various drone damage types, neuts, mjds, ecm, omni tank... a warp disruptor is not the only difference between PVE and PVP ships!


What ? Not everyone lacks balls and only flies a frigate with warp core stabs while pursuing FW.

I would like to think that one day FW will transition to more than just desi's, frigates, and mordus ships.


You are correct, but those that don't fit stabs should not really worry about 100% chance of a fight inside the plex.
Drew Li
Space Exploitation Inc
#468 - 2014-12-18 21:21:00 UTC
Combat Recons

  • +30/15% to ewar optimal/falloff
  • +100% damage small guns
  • -50% cycle time small guns

This makes ewar from recons effective against sniper platforms(tengus, sniper battleships, sentry drones, etc). It also makes them far more useful against smaller ship classes. Nobody is going to use a recon as a primary damage platform. This could allow them to be used as screening platforms for a fleet.

Also consider adding high slot ewar modules restricted to certain ship classes(covert cynos for example). As it stands armor platforms are the best at ewar/tackle because all their mids are available without sacrificing tank. Consider a Curse with 5 small neut/nos, 5 tracking disruptors, prop mod, and nearly 200 dps in drones.

You could also move all ewar to high slots and remove the mid slot fitting requirement. This would of course mean re-balancing every combat ship in the game without a lot of care.

Curse and Pilgrim

  • +20% neut/nos range per level (+100% range at Recon 5)
  • -10% Neut/Nos cycle time per level (Double strength at Recons 5)
  • -85% powergrid for Neut/NOS (Allow fitting larger neut/nos for range)

This would give the amarr recons a lot of interesting fitting options for neuts.

Falcon and Rook

  • -50% ECM cycle time
  • +50% ewar optimal/falloff

This would make ECM more reliable and/or allow them to fit non-bonused ewar with significantly increased range. Target painting effectively from 150km for example. Something similar could be done with the scorpion as well.
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#469 - 2014-12-18 21:24:17 UTC
People are freaking out about this non-D-scan feature.

One set of ships. Four ships in all. That's it.

You guys act like now, everywhere you turn, Recons are gonna be popping out of space like daisies.

Why don't we just make cov ops cloaks detectable by Dscan but not visually? Because that's totally too much too. I mean, I warp into a medium and I don't know how many cloaky ships could be in there!!! That'll totally kill my solo ability. Why would I take any fight when they could be anywhere? Why wouldn't everybody have a cloaky alt sitting with all four races to protect their Thorax in a medium plex?


As someone who actually flies solo combat recon, I love this. If this gets the axe because a lot of whiny "soloers" don't like the risk of taking a fight, then I'll be really really disappointed in the pansy ass attitude of some of the "pro pvpers" in this game.

Look. Outside of FW, you can already warp cloaky ships to combat sites or planets or whatever and drop on people via that. Inside FW, this change only really effects medium plexes and, in a much more limited way, larges (since you can warp at range to a large and scout it first). This isn't going to be a game breaker, you guys are just being babies about it.
Moebbius
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
Federation Uprising
#470 - 2014-12-18 21:27:03 UTC
I think the undetectable by directional scanners is way to overpowered.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#471 - 2014-12-18 21:28:42 UTC
So, who wants to buy me a curse?

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Tex Raynor
The High and Mighty
Carebear Abortion Clinic
#472 - 2014-12-18 21:30:25 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
People are freaking out about this non-D-scan feature.

One set of ships. Four ships in all. That's it.

You guys act like now, everywhere you turn, Recons are gonna be popping out of space like daisies.

Why don't we just make cov ops cloaks detectable by Dscan but not visually? Because that's totally too much too. I mean, I warp into a medium and I don't know how many cloaky ships could be in there!!! That'll totally kill my solo ability. Why would I take any fight when they could be anywhere? Why wouldn't everybody have a cloaky alt sitting with all four races to protect their Thorax in a medium plex?


As someone who actually flies solo combat recon, I love this. If this gets the axe because a lot of whiny "soloers" don't like the risk of taking a fight, then I'll be really really disappointed in the pansy ass attitude of some of the "pro pvpers" in this game.

Look. Outside of FW, you can already warp cloaky ships to combat sites or planets or whatever and drop on people via that. Inside FW, this change only really effects medium plexes and, in a much more limited way, larges (since you can warp at range to a large and scout it first). This isn't going to be a game breaker, you guys are just being babies about it.


In fact, like you said, immunity to d-scan as proposed just gives combat recons covert ops cloaks... you trade that short moment where covert cloakers appear on scan as they enter system before they cloak versus actually being combat probable unless fitting a regular cloak.
Suitonia
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#473 - 2014-12-18 21:30:27 UTC
Also worth pointing out that this invalidates many guerrilla warfare techniques that solo and smaller entitys use to engage larger groups. One technique is warping to a different celestial in a system and engaging there, hoping the enemy forces are split up, and you can guage by the directional scanner what is following you and their arrival time roughly, with these new combat recons that is thrown out of the window entirely, even if a cloaked recon follows you they have to suffer from 5 second decloak timer+lock time, and the fact that they tend to be more vulnerable and bring less DPS than the combat varients, which gives you more counterplay, and time to try and disengage or kill your target before it can influence the fight, I really dislike taking away this ability.

Complex/Site/Mission runners will now need a mandatory alt watching the entrance of their plex, if you were vigilant with directional scanner you could detect covert ops invaders and the cloaking delay gives you time to try and escape or fight.

FW will probably be hit hardest by this, you see a t1 cruiser in a medium plex on d-scan, great, you go in with your cruiser, then find a curse and 2 rooks on grid. Likewise, you could be in a t1 Cruiser, see another t1 cruiser come in so decide to stay and fight. then 2 rooks come in and it's gg and you couldn't possibly prevent it without having an alt watching the entrance. A combat recon could also capture plexes without anyone ever knowing about it unless there is someone watching the inside constantly, which invalidates a lot of FW sieging and defensive plexing.

I only see this ability being used to gank people who can't possibly scout these ganks, unless they have meta knowledge, which is a lot like hotdrops (Which is one of the reasons why you nerfed long distance travel and jump bridge ranges to curtail this type of gameplay)

This ability is not useful to solo/small gang players who roam to engage other players in nullsec, and possibly more organised lowsec, since they'll quickly be reported in intel and as soon as a combat recon is spotted they know you're in one when they see your character in local and just leave whatever they're doing assuming you're there. this ability is not useful to large fleets who are scouted anyway, and are large enough that they can't really hide their shiptypes, and would probably prefer their recon pilots had covert cloak + cynosural field bonus for escalation potential.

I feel like this ability only punishes solo/small gang players

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#474 - 2014-12-18 21:32:00 UTC
Kmelx wrote:
D-Scan immunity is just a terrible idea, at least with the cov ops recons there is a chance that you can leave before they can ruin the fight after they decloak, here, they can just sit on grid, still surprise you unless you alt scout with combats every single fight your going to take, but without any of the drawbacks of the cloak's detrimental effect upon locking speed.

The bonus is far too powerful, without any compensating detrimental effect. It will have a seriously deleterious effect on FW and lowsec small gang PVP. It is not a balanced change.


It will not be the end of EVE - errm the world.

The Rook, Pilgrim, Arazu stil need to gate-travel and will be seen there. They have no cloaky bonus. People in cloaky boat will see and report their presents.

And remember they don't have the OMG-FTW-BBQ-SOLO-PWN-mobile capability that those tech 3 abominations akà proteus, tengu, legion and loki have.

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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#475 - 2014-12-18 21:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
I was intending to spend more time in Stain, however once that D-scan change kicks in I don't think I will bother.for me the Lachesis becomes a game breaker as a solo operator, its not a whine on my part, but there was little reason for me to go back to NPC 0.0 as it is, but that ship will just be too OTT.

I operate in systems with other people in them, cloaky ships are of course one issue, but often the time delay for getting a lock is the thing that gets me out, an interceptor I can blap, but the Lachesis does not need a close warp in and as soon as it arrives it starts locking. I want a chance to get out, I am not interested in certain death, sorry but that is a game breaker for me and the pity is that the changes you were making had enticed me back.

What is your reasoning? Is it to aid the people who cannot deal with local, give them an instant I win ship against people who are able to operate because they are concentrating and using strategies that make them difficult to catch, like being away from the warp in in belts.

Belt ratting is dead mostly after the nerf to re-processing, but for me that kills it for me, all someone has to do is jump in a Lachesis and I am toast. I play Eve to be hard to kill and I have fun in the game by operating in crap space and giving people the run around and pick them off if I can, this breaks the game for me, so I can't see it working for me, so will be de-subbing if that is applied, I am sorry and I have to say again its a pity as all the recent changes had brought me back.

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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#476 - 2014-12-18 21:37:35 UTC
AshenShugar01 wrote:
Not being able to rely on D-Scan = EVE Broken. Shocked

So, EvE has been broken for as long as we've had cloaking devices? Good to know.

AshenShugar01 wrote:
EVE players need tools they can rely on to interact with the environment and the community. Taking such a basic fundamental mechanic and making its reliability questionable is a big step in the wrong direction.

This change does not decrease the reliability of D-Scan, it simply removes it's utility against four hulls. Four. Given that there were already several times over that number that could be effectively immune to D-Scan with their CovOps cloak, I fail to see how this is such a huge deal.

AshenShugar01 wrote:
Providing one ship class with this kind of immunity makes them completely OP straight away. In fact its game breaking with certain mechanics; if CCP progresses with this lunacy it puts another significant nail in the coffin of small gang/small scale PVP.

How exactly? D-Scan immunity doesn't magically grant Combat Recons the ability to land on grid with you at zero. They still have to find you, which means either using scan probes, or finding you on D-Scan and warping to a nearby celestial. With the former, you still get a warning on D-Scan (scan probes are still visible) and with the latter, unless you are literally sitting stationary at zero at the warp-in to wherever you are, you can just warp off because they will land uncloaked. (Lachesis may be a slightly different story...but we'll see.) So the easy solution is to add scan probes to your D-Scan settings (they should be there already) and to not fly like an idiot and sit where people can warp to you at zero.

If you're worried about them laying in wait for you...well that's nothing new. Force Recons, bombers, CovOps, BlOps, etc. could already do that.

And how exactly will this hurt small gangs? If anything, I see this boosting small gang warfare because two of the best force multipliers in the game (Force Recons and Combat Recons) will be getting buffed significantly.

Relatively Notorious By Association

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Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#477 - 2014-12-18 21:37:45 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Kmelx wrote:
D-Scan immunity is just a terrible idea, at least with the cov ops recons there is a chance that you can leave before they can ruin the fight after they decloak, here, they can just sit on grid, still surprise you unless you alt scout with combats every single fight your going to take, but without any of the drawbacks of the cloak's detrimental effect upon locking speed.

The bonus is far too powerful, without any compensating detrimental effect. It will have a seriously deleterious effect on FW and lowsec small gang PVP. It is not a balanced change.


It will not be the end of EVE - errm the world.

The Rook, Pilgrim, Arazu stil need to gate-travel and will be seen there. They have no cloaky bonus. People in cloaky boat will see and report their presents.

And remember they don't have the OMG-FTW-BBQ-SOLO-PWN-mobile capability that those tech 3 abominations akà proteus, tengu, legion and loki have.


Lol, pilgrim and arazu have cloaking bonuses.

Lachesis and curse are what you mean.

You shouldn't even be commenting on recons if you don't even know the difference between them.
Quesa
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#478 - 2014-12-18 21:41:28 UTC
Honestly, these changes mean nothing without details on EWar/EWar Mod changes being discussed at the same time and I didn't see any discussion about those things.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#479 - 2014-12-18 21:43:16 UTC
Immunity to Dscan seems overkill to be honest, I'd still use the ships as you linked them without that feature.

I am not sure how thorough CCPs analysis of the implications that this would have have been, but my instant reaction to reading the immunity to dscan is that it will probably be scrapped before the changes go live.

That being said, as a recon user myself, I'm intrigued as to the amount of possibilities that this would throw open if it really does go ahead. And it would certainly set recons apart from T3s that is for sure.

I'm not putting much faith though on the possibility that this will actually make it to tranquillity, will have to see it to believe it.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#480 - 2014-12-18 21:43:43 UTC
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