Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.

First of all, having 2 (or more) scouts is extremely common. Typical guys that cannot fly (SP) or do not have the ships the fc asks for.

Second, 1 decent scout is good enough: jump it in, check gate, warp around to check the rest of the system, warp back to gate @100 (or at an on-grid tactical if you're particularly serious about your scouting prowess) just before the order to jump in is confirmed.

How hard is that???

For lowsec, three very simple arguments:

1) They're still visible in local
2) They're visible on-grid
3) Both fighting parties are free to use them

What more do you need? You just have to be creative in using those 3 points better than your opponent(s).

I think these changes are fantastic. It really shakes things up and that is what New Eden needs. In 10 years no ship has ever been d-scan immune all the time. +1 for the devs out of box thinking on this give yourselfs a pat on the back. The only thing I kind of disagree with is the pligrim. This may be down to my own experiences flying one. I’m so used to decloaking in people’s faces and engaging. Now I will come in at 50KM and decloak and engage much like the falcon. Thinking about this it is better for the pilgrim to have the range bonus and not the neut/nos bonus. I have felt that the pilgrim is an EW support ship not a direct bawler but i do believe it needs more DPS.

Pilgrim:

Range and Strength will be too powerful. Would take away what is unique with the Curse.
+1 Mid or Low slot, and the CPU(PG) to make use of it would be a sufficient boost to the Pilgrim.


DScan immunity for Combat Recons, very cool approach!

[quote=CCP Rise]

If you were talking about any other ship type, I'd think that this is a pretty good argument.
A ship that you didn't see coming could in many cases change an engagement and it not being seen right away can definitely make the difference between going in and shying away from the engagement. But Recons have a way larger impact on such things than most ships, therefore making this unpredicability more likely to have a negative effect rather than a positive one.

An example: If you're solo in a NOmen and you engage some people with some T1 cruisers and some tackle on a gate. Since the cruisers are slower than you and you can kill the tackle, that should be a possible engagement. Now, almost no matter what kind of additional ships show up once you engage, you will still have a chance.
A HAC/BC/BS? More damage projection against you. Not a problem as long as you can move. Anything Frig-sized? Just shoot it. If you are good enough at piloting, you might be okay. A Logi? Huge problem, but still leaves the possibilty to disengage sometimes. The only thing that will make it almost completely impossible to do anything would be a Recon. See the problem?

Yes, obscuring information to a degree is a good idea but a ship with an inbuild no penalties, cloak until probed is bad.
Force Recons with cloak have drawbacks, they are usually harder to fit, less tank, lock time penalty.
Combat Recons as you suggest have no drawback at all. I still cringe but what might work is giving the Combat Recons a similiar modul to cloak like "D-Scan obscurer" with drawbacks and penalties similiar to using a cloak on a Force Recon. So players have a choice get the full might of Combat Recon but be visible or obscure the D-Scan but be gimped.




I think you should be worried about people exactly doing that, they will probe before engage, especially in WHs and Lowsec and a 2nd Prober account will be a necessity not an option.

That can not be your honest reply?

Instead of requiring a 2nd account with probes you say it's the opposite? Meaning with the incoming DS-Invisibility you can even better work without probes / scouting alts?

And a lot of "fights" in lowsec are caused by very good scouting and because pve-people feel risk/reward balanced. As explained before severalt times it will change, because I will not jump my T3 / Stratios into combat plexes anymore when there are people in local. And as soon as a neutral jumps in I will stay aligned. This Overall will reduce my income as I can not fight so much time as I can do now, where I can be sure, that at least hitting a DS gives me some security (it will not protect me 100%!). But with this patch I have. Risk/Reward becomes unbalanced. Less PvE in lowsec, less Targets, less Engagements. I think that is quite simple. And this is just one example. FW has been explained as well. Don't count the sample inside the plex, Take into consideration the examples outside the FW plex. And even inside the FW plex this fight would have happened before! Before no gang would have waited in Vexors and rooks inside a plex. That's just senseless to take this as a serious counter argument. But a fleet of 4 Vexors (Exchange 2 rooks for reasonable vexors) would have been engaged.

Without an Scouting-alt on a 2nd account and best on a second Monitor you will sooner or later die to Recons where you could have saved your ass by paying attention.

Etc. etc.

For the probe scans: How do you think shall one Person do that? Please check Fitting Requirements of Expanded Probe Launchers! Very hard to fit! Of course you can use mobile Depots, but again, that is weaking my other Jobs (like pve in lowsec) and just increases time and effort. And between refitting a recon can jump in the system or a guy in local changes ship at a Station and I am ****** without any Chance of escape!

As already said:
1. Local counts little in Lowsec because you have a LOT more Residents, Haulers, Shipspinners, PI Guys, POS Guys and whatnot in Local. You can almost never use Localcount to determine if there is a gang waiting or not. There can be 10 People an Local and no ship in Space. Daily Business in Lowsec. DScan is your tool to make decisions, fight or move. If you cannot rely on that tool any more, you will stop fighting or get ganked a lot.

2. To see them on-Grid is useless when that grid is a simple trap for anyone who warps there. When you see them you can count your ship as lost because you are already dead. You drop out of warp and are almost instantly pointed, webbed, damped and whatnot because they planned their trap for exat that scenario. The only way to prevent that is sending a scout or prober before you do any warp, which makes Solo- and Smallcale PvP just horrible annoying.

3. The larger force always have the advantage to hide a major part of their force in such recons and still use a few guys in juicy targets as bait. The smaller force will simply run into an unwinnable fight without chance to avoid it. It makes engaging larger numbers almost suicidal.

@ CCP Rise: What kind of logic is it, to say "more fights will happen if people do not know what awaits them and so chose to fight where they normally would have ran away!" - think about what you just said there: You *force* frustration because you deny people to make the right decisions based on their scouting and experience. That is what people makes quit and saying "what a damn waste of time!" after they ran into a complete unwinnable fight just because the other side had "invisible units". Jesus...

All I have to say about this: WRECKS! Easy to find them and by this the ano. No Advantage to PvE!!!