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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#721 - 2014-12-19 10:26:39 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:
Combat Probes, people. Yes, you CAN see those Combat Recons entering system, waiting for you on a site, or escorting a friend who's running the site. Drop those probes and you'll see: if it appears on the probes and not on D-Scan, then it's a Combat Recon. That's it. And remember you can place probes all over the system, much further away than your D-Scan range, effectively covering by yourself a much bigger volume. You can even place 1 or more probes at each gate, wormhole or even some sites. And, that will warn you of any kind of ship that is not cloaked, even if you have no Local.

And the insta-lock due to not being cloaked: every non-cloaked ship can do that. Even cloaky ships, if they pursposelly drop their cloak a few thousand kilometers before landing. So, stay away from those warp--in points and you'll have time to see it arrive and mash that Warp button. Especially when the incoming ship can't warp cloaked, such as... Combat Recons. And if it lands directly on you due to Combat Probes... you should have seen them in D-Scan and have acted accordingly.

You have tools to know about incoming ships; use them and you'll avoid not only Combat Recons, but many other ships too.



Now about the ship stats, I wonder if the Rook could get RLML's bonused too, or if that would be too much for it to have.


Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher requires 210 CPU
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#722 - 2014-12-19 10:27:40 UTC
HoruSeth wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Will only be meaningful on WH and maybe FW sites. Every other activity already relies in local 10 times more than in DSCAN.


No, it will not. It won't change WH a lot as they have no local, so whenever you press scan in DS you see nothing, but there can be a fleet of CovOps T3 out there already. Nothing will Change really. And most WHrs already have Scouts on their wormholes, you see recons early enough. And using Recons as Scout, who can not cloak is probably a bad idea due to jump mass range issue.
Only difference: You just have to add 1x Combat Probes Scanning when you start until you have whole control. That's it. stupid, simple technique.

But this will heavily influence FW and lowsec PvP and PvE, especially solo, small gang work. Totally agree on that Point. And from my current Point of view that influence is too much!

Buff the Recons? Yes!

Make CR DS-immune? Don't do it.
It will unbalance things in bad way as there is literelly not much how you can counter that in lowsec. This has been described by others already in this topic!

PS: CCP, why do you nerf Pilgrim again? Eliminate the neut strength bonus is not worth the extra range! Keep the strength bonus and only increase the range a little bit (maybe just 10%). With regard to Neuting role the Pilgrim was fine as it is! No improvement is done by giving it more range, but limiting the Neuting Power. Roll



How in hell you can say that it will change othign in WH but willb eOP in low sec? Dude you lost all the chance of anyone paying attention on what you post with that...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Jori McKie
African Atomic.
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#723 - 2014-12-19 10:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan will hurt PvP on every scale, solo, small, fleet, WH and FW.

EVE PvP is risk assessment, most EVE players are risk averse like hell including most FCs. That means if the odds are bad against the enemy fleet = avoid fight and in it's extrem form "fight only if we don't lose any ship" = gank/blob or massive amount of logis.
With Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan that attitude will highten = less fights overall because then it will be a counting and confirming game. Means if numbers are suspicious any FC will wait for visual/probe confirmation "how many and which Recons", result is combat pace will slow down and will be avoided even more.

The worst will be, everybody will hide his friends in Recons, so if 2 at first visible glance more or less equal gangs meet nobody will engage because not knowing how many Recons the others have hidden is not an option, especially if lcoal numbers don't add up with visible gang numbers. This mindset will harden into everybody and will lead to **** this just blob the **** out of them.

In WHs, lol PvP ..... nobody will engage in PvP without probing first anymore. Thera for example will be bait+recons only after 1 week.
In lowsec and FW, lol PvP..... nobody will ever warp into a medium gated pocket without probing anymore. Nobody will engage without probing the whole system first.


That will be the consequences of invisible Recons for PvP or in simple words you will need a 2nd Account with a Prober at all times. For PvE in null, wh, lowesec it will be even worse.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

hellokittyonline
New Order Mining Authority
Safety.
#724 - 2014-12-19 10:28:35 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
You clearly have the IQ of a squirrel because I said nothing about the availability and was obviously talking about the frequency of use. Notice I said "T3s becoming overused" and not "T3s becoming more available".

But to answer your question, when a pimped t3 suddenly costs $15 instead of $30 you better believe you're going to see more of them.

By availability I mean scarcity or abundance, which directly affects price. If you want them to be rarely used due to price, you must change something in material / effort cost to make them. Tweaking ISK printing volumes will not affect that in the slightest in the long run. Prices will just adjust accordingly if you do, both ISK/PLEX and ISK/T3 ones, if you're so concerned about real money equivalents.

In short, the reason you see a lot of T3s is because a lot of T3s are built. Without production factor you can have all ISK in the world and still be unable to buy them to the extent that you "overuse them". If they aren't as much more expensive than T2s and other K-space produced ships as you think they should be, then it's because it doesn't take that much more effort to build them relatively to T2s and Co, at least not enough for their price to be sky-high. Again, all is relative because T3s aren't exactly cheap and easy to build.


Yes you are right in a sense but we're not talking about the long run, we're talking about right now and right now t3s are overused because they cost effectively half of what they did a year or two ago because people have twice the income or are getting twice the isk for their plex. Now assuming it is correcting itself already, the prices aren't going up, meaning t3s are actually being used less meaning rebalancing everything around them is completely pointless.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#725 - 2014-12-19 10:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Jori McKie wrote:
Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan will hurt PvP on every scale, solo, small, fleet, WH and FW.

EVE PvP is risk assessment, most EVE players are risk averse like hell including most FCs. That means if the odds are bad against the enemy fleet = avoid fight and in it's extrem form "fight only if we don't lose any ship" = gank/blob or massive amount of logis.
With Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan that attitude will highten = less fights overall because then it will be a counting and confirming game. Means if numbers are suspicious any FC will wait for visual/probe confirmation "how many and which Recons", result is combat pace will slow down and will be avoided even more.

The worst will be, everybody will hide his friends in Recons, so if 2 at first visible glance more or less equal gangs meet nobody will engage because not knowing how many Recons the others have hidden is not an option, especially if lcoal numbers don't add up with visible gang numbers. This mindset will harden into everybody and will lead to **** this just blob the **** out of them.

In WHs, lol PvP ..... nobody will engage in PvP without probing first anymore. Thera for example will be bait+recons only after 1 week.
In lowsec and FW, lol PvP..... nobody will ever warp into a medium gated pocket without probing anymore. Nobody will engage without probing the whole system first.


That will be the consequences of invisible Recons for PvP. For PvE in null, wh, lowesec it will be even worse.



That will ahppen for a pair of weeks then people will stop flying only recons and everything get back to normal.

If being D-Scan immune was THAT decisive you would see ONLY stratios running around... You don't. Why? Because while being a good advantage, it is not enough to justify restricting your capabilities so much.

If you fly only in recons you will have less power per player than a group that uses T3 with links for example and you will just not be able to engage. When the scale grows even higher the likehood of probes already beign present is huge.

So the impact will be ONLY at solo or duo scale. And it can impact BOTH sides. While you do not know they are there, they also do not know you are there if you use a recon, so you are less likely to receive a visit

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kyang Tia
Matari Exodus
#726 - 2014-12-19 10:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyang Tia
Kagura Nikon wrote:

What? what youare smoking? No one uses laechis, huggin and rook . They are more invisible than their cloaky brothers.


My corp has used the Lach and the Huginn recently, and with decent success. We also saw other people doing the same. The only reason we use Arazus and Rapiers more often is that we generally tank armor more often than shield.
Jori McKie
African Atomic.
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#727 - 2014-12-19 10:38:02 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

That will ahppen for a pair of weeks then people will stop flying only recons and everything get back to normal.

If being D-Scan immune was THAT decisive you would see ONLY stratios running around...


Comparing Stratios with Combat Recons is silly. Combat Recons are force multipliers, Stratios are not. One Huggin+Lachesis can change the outcome of a 10 vs 30 fight, 2 more Stratios on one side doesn't matter that much.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2014-12-19 10:38:31 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
Zappity wrote:
:shrug: Don't sit at zero on the beacon. You will see them as soon as they land on grid.

Perfect intel is bad, just like perfect stealth is bad.


You clearly have no idea what we're talking about so let me explain.

First of all you seem to be under the assumption that lowsec pvp consists of sitting in a plex and waiting for someone to warp in on you but fail to realize that SOMEONE HAS TO WARP IN ON YOU. So lets assume you're on the other end and you're the one doing the warping (which already puts you at a disadvantage). You dscan a plex and find a ship that would be a good fight, you warp in on said ship, take the gate only to find him sebo'd out the ass to insta point you and a recon that is immune to dscan sitting there ready to rip your face off, not fun.
What happens today when you dscan a plex, find a ship that 'would be a good fight', warp in, get scrammed and webbed, then his buddy uncloaks in [insert powerful ship here]? Or a bunch of his buddies enter system and warp to you?

What's the difference? The small chance you have today of getting away in that situation while the nasty people have targeting delay or are warping to you?


But then again, this will only apply to medium fw plexes. Recons are too fat for novices and smalls, and you can easily check out larges by warping in @100.


So quit whining and just be more careful in medium plexes. Please note that it's ALWAYS about the PLAYERS, not about the ships: you'll NEVER get a 'good fight' anyway out of the kind of player that would sit in a d-scan invisible recon in a medium plex just to blap unsuspecting T1 frigs...

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#729 - 2014-12-19 10:38:35 UTC
Kyang Tia wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

What? what youare smoking? No one uses laechis, huggin and rook . They are more invisible than their cloaky brothers.


My corp has used the Lach and the Huginn recently, and with decent success. We also saw other people doing the same. The only reason we use Arazus and Rapiers more often is that we generally tank armor more often than shield.



Anedoctal evidence. They are generally cosnidered inferior because the minimal DPS increase they have is insignificant comapred to the warp cloaked capability. If you really need more raw power you bring a loki instead of the huggin for example.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Heinrich Rotwang
Spectre Fleet Corporation
#730 - 2014-12-19 10:39:40 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan will hurt PvP on every scale, solo, small, fleet, WH and FW.



How is A) a combat recon, thats just not visible on dscan, worse than B) T3, force recon, bombers, Astero and Stratios not being visible on dscan, not probeable with combat probes and not even visible when you sit next to it.

How does pvp work with B) but will cease to happen with A)?
Claud Tiberius
#731 - 2014-12-19 10:43:22 UTC
Awesome changes. Those who are complaining about Dscan immunity just don't like to accept risks - or handle them.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#732 - 2014-12-19 10:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Dracvlad wrote:
A Force Recon ship and the one that worries me the most is the Lachesis with its long point will undock and I will not see it, it will warp to a belt and I will see it when it arrives on grid, it will have no cloak delay, so its locking will be fast, they will brick tank it and fit it for fast locking.

Lachesis is Combat, not Force, but I do agree with your premise. Lachesis will probably be a problem with the ultra long point. Not much risk there.

I wonder if CCP could slow down the speed with which these exit warp? You can still see them on the overview so having a battleship-type warp exit would give a few extra seconds before they can start locking while still being visible on grid.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#733 - 2014-12-19 10:47:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kyang Tia wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

What? what youare smoking? No one uses laechis, huggin and rook . They are more invisible than their cloaky brothers.


My corp has used the Lach and the Huginn recently, and with decent success. We also saw other people doing the same. The only reason we use Arazus and Rapiers more often is that we generally tank armor more often than shield.



Anedoctal evidence. They are generally cosnidered inferior because the minimal DPS increase they have is insignificant comapred to the warp cloaked capability. If you really need more raw power you bring a loki instead of the huggin for example.


Huginn and Lachesis are integral to shield fleets, because shield web Lokis and shield Proteuses are bullshit. Some facts for you, according to Zkillboard:

Recon Ships TOP 8 Killers

1. Rapier 1,454,295
2. Falcon 937,331
3. Huginn 841,639
4. Arazu 659,607
5. Lachesis 626,537
6. Curse 533,506
7. Pilgrim 274,889
8. Rook 204,756

Note that this will change to favour combat recons regardless of whether the Dscan stupidity gets through or not.
hellokittyonline
New Order Mining Authority
Safety.
#734 - 2014-12-19 10:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: hellokittyonline
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
Zappity wrote:
:shrug: Don't sit at zero on the beacon. You will see them as soon as they land on grid.

Perfect intel is bad, just like perfect stealth is bad.


You clearly have no idea what we're talking about so let me explain.

First of all you seem to be under the assumption that lowsec pvp consists of sitting in a plex and waiting for someone to warp in on you but fail to realize that SOMEONE HAS TO WARP IN ON YOU. So lets assume you're on the other end and you're the one doing the warping (which already puts you at a disadvantage). You dscan a plex and find a ship that would be a good fight, you warp in on said ship, take the gate only to find him sebo'd out the ass to insta point you and a recon that is immune to dscan sitting there ready to rip your face off, not fun.
What happens today when you dscan a plex, find a ship that 'would be a good fight', warp in, get scrammed and webbed, then his buddy uncloaks in [insert powerful ship here]? Or a bunch of his buddies enter system and warp to you?

What's the difference? The small chance you have today of getting away in that situation while the nasty people have targeting delay or are warping to you?


But then again, this will only apply to medium fw plexes. Recons are too fat for novices and smalls, and you can easily check out larges by warping in @100.


So quit whining and just be more careful in medium plexes. Please note that it's ALWAYS about the PLAYERS, not about the ships: you'll NEVER get a 'good fight' anyway out of the kind of player that would sit in a d-scan invisible recon in a medium plex just to blap unsuspecting T1 frigs...

First of all because you can break range on the ship that points you (the bait needs a web, which means no sebo, which means you can likely warp away before the bait locks you anyways) and possibly get away during that targeting delay, second because they do not have to fit a module for the bonus, and third because it makes having two types of recons almost 100% pointless.

I think the absence of a countermeasure, downside, or balancing point (that doesn't involve your opponent having friends or multiple accounts) is the obvious problem.
Cartridgexxxx
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#735 - 2014-12-19 10:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Cartridgexxxx
edit: this might just become the start of a long chain of ''improving game experience by adding new changes in pvp'' aka attempting get more subs by screwing up everything. I hope it won't happen with this game
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#736 - 2014-12-19 10:50:36 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
A Force Recon ship and the one that worries me the most is the Lachesis with its long point will undock and I will not see it, it will warp to a belt and I will see it when it arrives on grid, it will have no cloak delay, so its locking will be fast, they will brick tank it and fit it for fast locking.

Lachesis is Combat, not Force, but I do agree with your premise. Lachesis will probably be a problem with the ultra long point. Not much risk there.

I wonder if CCP could slow down the speed with which these exit warp? You can still see them on the overview so having a battleship-type warp exit would give a few extra seconds before they can start locking while still being visible on grid.



If you are aligned.. you can already warp away because all ships take 2-3 seconds to be able to lock.

If you were not aligned.. then the cloaky recons were already able to get you...

The change is very small in reality. If I am landing with an arazu to get someone that I wave a warpin to I will turn the cloak off some 3 seconds before get on grid already. So smart players already can do the exact same thing combat recons will be able to do.

The only real game changing scenario is FW sites were people can wait inside.. but even that has a drawback..because what comes trough the game might be 2 other recons...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#737 - 2014-12-19 10:52:41 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kyang Tia wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

What? what youare smoking? No one uses laechis, huggin and rook . They are more invisible than their cloaky brothers.


My corp has used the Lach and the Huginn recently, and with decent success. We also saw other people doing the same. The only reason we use Arazus and Rapiers more often is that we generally tank armor more often than shield.



Anedoctal evidence. They are generally cosnidered inferior because the minimal DPS increase they have is insignificant comapred to the warp cloaked capability. If you really need more raw power you bring a loki instead of the huggin for example.


Huginn and Lachesis are integral to shield fleets, because shield web Lokis and shield Proteuses are bullshit. Some facts for you, according to Zkillboard:

Recon Ships TOP 8 Killers

1. Rapier 1,454,295
2. Falcon 937,331
3. Huginn 841,639
4. Arazu 659,607
5. Lachesis 626,537
6. Curse 533,506
7. Pilgrim 274,889
8. Rook 204,756

Note that this will change to favour combat recons regardless of whether the Dscan stupidity gets through or not.



Why in hell anyone use a huggin instead of a rapier? Besides being an idiot? And these laechis numbers at not big at all. Check the dampener bonus on the recons agasint the other dampenign ships and you will see why BOTH are not much used.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Jori McKie
African Atomic.
HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
#738 - 2014-12-19 10:54:37 UTC
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
Combat Recons being invisible on D-Scan will hurt PvP on every scale, solo, small, fleet, WH and FW.



How is A) a combat recon, thats just not visible on dscan, worse than B) T3, force recon, bombers, Astero and Stratios not being visible on dscan, not probeable with combat probes and not even visible when you sit next to it.

How does pvp work with B) but will cease to happen with A)?


Have you seen a cloak T3 fit, like you use in Blops? It is gimped and rightly so, T3 Recons are at least 2.5 times more expansive than Recons (yes T3 have better tank) and you risk to lose a skill.
Bombers will be in line and balanced after multiple broadcast with ISboxer isn't allowed anymore in January.
Astero+Stratios are no force multipliers, they can't change the outcome of a fight in small numbers, Recons can.
Force Recons with cloak are gimped and rightly so compared to full tank and full utility Combat Recon. It is simple why should i use a gimped cloak Recon when i can use a Recon with better tank and same utility including being cloaked until probes.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#739 - 2014-12-19 10:56:48 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
A Force Recon ship and the one that worries me the most is the Lachesis with its long point will undock and I will not see it, it will warp to a belt and I will see it when it arrives on grid, it will have no cloak delay, so its locking will be fast, they will brick tank it and fit it for fast locking.

Lachesis is Combat, not Force, but I do agree with your premise. Lachesis will probably be a problem with the ultra long point. Not much risk there.

I wonder if CCP could slow down the speed with which these exit warp? You can still see them on the overview so having a battleship-type warp exit would give a few extra seconds before they can start locking.


Yes you are right combat recon ships, but in any case a Lachesis and a Curse means no chance, I take risks, but I am against certain death, so its a game killer.


People are sprouting out nonsense about using combat probes, well as someone quite rightly pointed out CPU...

Another comment is decloaking and warping in to get rid of the cloak delay on cloaky ships, well it still takes more time, I see the person on grid and there is a delay while they get into warp then the warp down and then they come out of warp, its not like the on grid starts locking is it?

This D-scan immunity is seriously bad news, yesterday I admitted to my friends playing Elite Dangerous that I had re-subbed Eve, but just now I told them about the D-scan immunity and they all went WTF are CCP stupid, facepalm...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

HoruSeth
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#740 - 2014-12-19 10:59:21 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
How in hell you can say that it will change othign in WH but willb eOP in low sec? Dude you lost all the chance of anyone paying attention on what you post with that...


My post has likes (not an alt!), yours don't, so from general point of view I would assume my Posts got more Attention. ;)

Besides that I did not say it change "nother" in wh. I said it will not Change a lot, so only Little.

And finally: Improve your reading and comprehension skills please. Explainations why for lowsec and wh have been provided many times, not only by me.

On my gravestone will be written: "Died because he used sarcasm in the wrong moment"