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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
Tethys Luxor
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#761 - 2014-12-19 11:37:41 UTC
Basicly, the whole dscan feature is outdated.
All ships have the same equipment
- same dscan range
-100% chances to work (except 0% chance on cloak / minute)
- same visibility on dscan of others -ability to see the ship name like a beacon :)

It would be good to include scanner strength and range, and partial results. Using target' signature radius would make sense.
Advanced dscan ability could include ability to reminder given ship's signature and links with combat probe scanner.

I guess CCP Rise answer pointed in a dscan change direction
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#762 - 2014-12-19 11:37:52 UTC
Quote:

I can tell you what will happen most likely:
- Less fights because people are risk averse
- A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.


I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.

@ccp_rise

TuCZnak
Cyber Dong Industries
#763 - 2014-12-19 11:39:24 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TuCZnak wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
  • Dscan immunity is staying.
  • Thanks for all the feedback.


    I don't think you value feedback that much, because most of this thread is a really big backlash against this "improvement". Anyway, if the immunity is staying, my subscriptions in your game are not staying, you can be sure about that.

    Can I have your stuff?


    No you can't, I'm gonna keep it for my resub 6 months later after this nonsense gets rollbacked.
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #764 - 2014-12-19 11:40:24 UTC
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    WTF are you supposed to do? Never have a scout leave the grid you plan to jump to incase a combat recon has warped in? So you now need 2 scouts to check a system: one to actually try find things (excluding combat recons); and one to just hang about on gate grid to ensure you're not jumping into otherwise-unscoutable death?
    First of all, having 2 (or more) scouts is extremely common. Typical guys that cannot fly (SP) or do not have the ships the fc asks for.

    Second, 1 decent scout is good enough: jump it in, check gate, warp around to check the rest of the system, warp back to gate @100 (or at an on-grid tactical if you're particularly serious about your scouting prowess) just before the order to jump in is confirmed.

    How hard is that???

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

    Kmelx
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #765 - 2014-12-19 11:43:23 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
  • Dscan immunity is staying.

  • Asking for player feedback and then ignoring that feedback for the win.

    I seriously wonder why you even bother...
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #766 - 2014-12-19 11:48:57 UTC
    Syzygium wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.
  • Sorry, but that "great job" is done by people who *obviously* have no idea about how solo and smallscale PvP especially in Lowsec works. I have not seen any "strong arguments" that have not been proven totally wrong by simple examples, if you have found some, please name them!
    For lowsec, three very simple arguments:

    1) They're still visible in local
    2) They're visible on-grid
    3) Both fighting parties are free to use them

    What more do you need? You just have to be creative in using those 3 points better than your opponent(s).

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #767 - 2014-12-19 11:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    WTF are you supposed to do? Never have a scout leave the grid you plan to jump to incase a combat recon has warped in? So you now need 2 scouts to check a system: one to actually try find things (excluding combat recons); and one to just hang about on gate grid to ensure you're not jumping into otherwise-unscoutable death?
    First of all, having 2 (or more) scouts is extremely common. Typical guys that cannot fly (SP) or do not have the ships the fc asks for.

    Second, 1 decent scout is good enough: jump it in, check gate, warp around to check the rest of the system, warp back to gate @100 (or at an on-grid tactical if you're particularly serious about your scouting prowess) just before the order to jump in is confirmed.

    How hard is that???
    I'm trying to talk about scenarios where players are playing at a high skill & SP level, while not just falling back on the Eve crutch of 'bring an alt to do that'. So given that covops link T3s are ubiquitous & a practical choice of rolling a cloaky scout & survivable link ship into one char (keeps sub costs down too), that's what people will use. We don't have people in ships that we don't call for (we're not large enough scale to have 'an FC', it's small gang pvp we're talking about hre), we don't have SP concerns. But we don't want to have to have someone multibox a covops frig just to keep eyes on a grid to ever give a nano gang a chance ever again.

    Hell, suddenly recon webs is also enough to ruin RR gameplay. Jumping a gate and having to all get into the best dynamic central position to be able to start repping each other would be hugely harder if we could just suddenly find we're webbed when starting apart. This would hugely increase the buffer required on all ships, as well as probably limit the viable ones to those that can dual-prop to have both speed and a strong tanking option in a brawl environment. So something boring like 0-dps-mod Ishtars. RIP other HACs, RIP BSs. Didn't want that acclaim-winning, inspiring, motivating gameplay footage anyway. Better just all roll plain buffer+dps fitted ships + only regular logi for RR. Of course medium blasters also lose the last of their viability now that everyone's perma-webbed & can't project or swap targets fast enough vs other weapon choices. ACs of course being already 6 feet under.
    Kendarr
    Infinite Violence
    Goonswarm Federation
    #768 - 2014-12-19 11:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kendarr
    I think these changes are fantastic. It really shakes things up and that is what New Eden needs. In 10 years no ship has ever been d-scan immune all the time. +1 for the devs out of box thinking on this give yourselfs a pat on the back. The only thing I kind of disagree with is the pligrim. This may be down to my own experiences flying one. I’m so used to decloaking in people’s faces and engaging. Now I will come in at 50KM and decloak and engage much like the falcon. Thinking about this it is better for the pilgrim to have the range bonus and not the neut/nos bonus. I have felt that the pilgrim is an EW support ship not a direct bawler but i do believe it needs more DPS.
    Komodo Askold
    Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
    Silent Company
    #769 - 2014-12-19 11:53:03 UTC
    Serendipity Lost wrote:
    Currently you can either see them coming on D-scan OR they have a delay on uncloaking. If this change goes through, then recons will have neither. I'm telling you flat out what I'm going to do with this. Refit a lachesis to max sensor boosts and the guys will have zero change of getting away. I'm a ganker, not a gankee and I'm telling you - this is going to be busted from the second it's implemented.

    Folks only get ganked w/ no chance to evade so many times before they pull the incursion D-ring and go make tons of nice safe empire isk. Just like my obvious move is to sensor boost the crap out of a recon, the obvious move for the guys getting ganked is to go somewhere (empire incursions) where they can make isk w/out that happening.

    You think guys are risk averse in null and dock up immediately upon a neutral entering their system? After this change it will be the only option for survival. Remember - all I have to do is tackle the guy in a sensor boosted recon and light my blops cyno. It will be fun while it lasts.
    (I cut off our previous posts for avoiding a wall of quotes)

    Even if you fit your Lachesis that way, that doesn't instantly mean he's pointed and dead. Even when the Lachesis bonused point range (I think it might need to be looked at), if your target did his homework he won't be sitting at the warp-in for you to land on him; he will be several kilometers away, so you'll have to use your MWD for a few seconds to catch him. Since you're warping in uncloaked, if he's aware (as he should), he will see you while decelerating from your warp: enough for him to try to warp away, especially if he's already aligned (as he should try to be). Most site-running ships can do that (the larger ones, such as battleships, should already be taking in account their own slowness and plan accordingly), and mining ships can be aligned already with less impact on their activities (and can fit warp stabilizers easily).
    If you manage to land directly on him when he's not on the warp-in, that's because you used Combat Probes, that he should have seen on D-Scan.

    The thing is, this applies to every non-cloaky ship. Those that can fit the covops cloak will not appear on D-Scan, neither on Combat Probes, neither on your Overview, until they're in top of you (or when they drop probes/ move from a stargate or WH, in which case they will only be visible for a few seconds or even much less time). That said, it doesn't seem that cloaky ships are OP or game-breaking...
    Varrakk
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    #770 - 2014-12-19 11:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Varrakk
    Pilgrim:

    Range and Strength will be too powerful. Would take away what is unique with the Curse.
    +1 Mid or Low slot, and the CPU(PG) to make use of it would be a sufficient boost to the Pilgrim.


    DScan immunity for Combat Recons, very cool approach!
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #771 - 2014-12-19 11:55:38 UTC
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    WTF are you supposed to do? Never have a scout leave the grid you plan to jump to incase a combat recon has warped in? So you now need 2 scouts to check a system: one to actually try find things (excluding combat recons); and one to just hang about on gate grid to ensure you're not jumping into otherwise-unscoutable death?
    First of all, having 2 (or more) scouts is extremely common. Typical guys that cannot fly (SP) or do not have the ships the fc asks for.

    Second, 1 decent scout is good enough: jump it in, check gate, warp around to check the rest of the system, warp back to gate @100 (or at an on-grid tactical if you're particularly serious about your scouting prowess) just before the order to jump in is confirmed.

    How hard is that???
    I'm trying to talk about scenarios where players are playing at a high skill & SP level, while not just falling back on the Eve crutch of 'bring an alt to do that'. So given that covops link T3s are ubiquitous & a practical choice of rolling a cloaky scout & survivable link ship into one char (keeps sub costs down too), that's what people will use. We don't have people in ships that we don't call for, we don't have SP concerns. But we don't want to have to have someone multibox a covops frig just to keep eyes on a grid to ever give a nano gang a chance ever again.

    Hell, suddenly recon webs is also enough to ruin RR gameplay. Jumping a gate and having to all get into the best dynamic central position to be able to start repping each other would be hugely harder if we could just suddenly find we're webbed when starting apart. This would hugely increase the buffer required on all ships, as well as probably limit the viable ones to those that can dual-prop to have both speed and a strong tanking option in a brawl environment.
    I hear you, but you're describing a very specific case of gang size/fit/composition and tactics.

    What I'm saying is, if you're succesful at fighting outnumbered in the current meta, leveraging on better ships/SP/tactics/combat discipline, I'm sure you boys will find a way to be just as succesful in a meta including d-scan immune recons - maybe bringing some of your own! Blink

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

    Kyang Tia
    Matari Exodus
    #772 - 2014-12-19 11:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyang Tia
    [quote=CCP Rise]
    Quote:

    Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


    If you were talking about any other ship type, I'd think that this is a pretty good argument.
    A ship that you didn't see coming could in many cases change an engagement and it not being seen right away can definitely make the difference between going in and shying away from the engagement. But Recons have a way larger impact on such things than most ships, therefore making this unpredicability more likely to have a negative effect rather than a positive one.

    An example: If you're solo in a NOmen and you engage some people with some T1 cruisers and some tackle on a gate. Since the cruisers are slower than you and you can kill the tackle, that should be a possible engagement. Now, almost no matter what kind of additional ships show up once you engage, you will still have a chance.
    A HAC/BC/BS? More damage projection against you. Not a problem as long as you can move. Anything Frig-sized? Just shoot it. If you are good enough at piloting, you might be okay. A Logi? Huge problem, but still leaves the possibilty to disengage sometimes. The only thing that will make it almost completely impossible to do anything would be a Recon. See the problem?
    Major Trant
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #773 - 2014-12-19 11:57:54 UTC
    Combat Recons not seen on DScan: I see this as a buff to low end Wormhole PvE myself.

    Sure you can't see a combat recon coming but it cuts both ways, you can't see a combat recon running a site either.

    People don't generally jump into WH and drop Combat probes. They jump in and do a DScan first. If they see someone, then they do a narrow DScan to the various anomalies and celestials. Only after that might they drop combat probes. There is no local in WHs so if you don't see someone on DScan you don't go probing for them.
    Jori McKie
    African Atomic.
    HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
    #774 - 2014-12-19 11:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Quote:

    I can tell you what will happen most likely:
    - Less fights because people are risk averse
    - A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.


    I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

    Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

    Yes, obscuring information to a degree is a good idea but a ship with an inbuild no penalties, cloak until probed is bad.
    Force Recons with cloak have drawbacks, they are usually harder to fit, less tank, lock time penalty.
    Combat Recons as you suggest have no drawback at all. I still cringe but what might work is giving the Combat Recons a similiar modul to cloak like "D-Scan obscurer" with drawbacks and penalties similiar to using a cloak on a Force Recon. So players have a choice get the full might of Combat Recon but be visible or obscure the D-Scan but be gimped.



    CCP Rise wrote:

    The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

    I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.

    I think you should be worried about people exactly doing that, they will probe before engage, especially in WHs and Lowsec and a 2nd Prober account will be a necessity not an option.

    "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #775 - 2014-12-19 12:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    I hear you, but you're describing a very specific case of gang size/fit/composition and tactics.

    What I'm saying is, if you're succesful at fighting outnumbered in the current meta, leveraging on better ships/SP/tactics/combat discipline, I'm sure you boys will find a way to be just as succesful in a meta including d-scan immune recons - maybe bringing some of your own! Blink
    **** ECM.

    We already use damps, as does everyone. But what does it matter if you'd like to continue to punish people for their mispositioning if you can never again achieve viable synchronised actions yourselves to make a comp actually tank any dps and thus play the long game of planning to survive rather than suicide? Why bother have some damps, some neuts, and hope to continue presenting the hostiles with interesting choices of being damped out of range, or forced into tackle & neuts range, if it means you could never do it without being forced to use high-resist fits (rather than plan to tank via manual kiting piloting) and hugely range-bonused RR?

    How do you nano with the possiblity of huginns anywhere you don't leave cloaked eyes? Other that in weak, disposable t1 insured crap?

    How do you solo in this proposed world?!
    HoruSeth
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #776 - 2014-12-19 12:01:39 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Quote:

    I can tell you what will happen most likely:
    - Less fights because people are risk averse
    - A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.


    I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.


    That can not be your honest reply?

    Instead of requiring a 2nd account with probes you say it's the opposite? Meaning with the incoming DS-Invisibility you can even better work without probes / scouting alts?

    And a lot of "fights" in lowsec are caused by very good scouting and because pve-people feel risk/reward balanced. As explained before severalt times it will change, because I will not jump my T3 / Stratios into combat plexes anymore when there are people in local. And as soon as a neutral jumps in I will stay aligned. This Overall will reduce my income as I can not fight so much time as I can do now, where I can be sure, that at least hitting a DS gives me some security (it will not protect me 100%!). But with this patch I have. Risk/Reward becomes unbalanced. Less PvE in lowsec, less Targets, less Engagements. I think that is quite simple. And this is just one example. FW has been explained as well. Don't count the sample inside the plex, Take into consideration the examples outside the FW plex. And even inside the FW plex this fight would have happened before! Before no gang would have waited in Vexors and rooks inside a plex. That's just senseless to take this as a serious counter argument. But a fleet of 4 Vexors (Exchange 2 rooks for reasonable vexors) would have been engaged.

    Without an Scouting-alt on a 2nd account and best on a second Monitor you will sooner or later die to Recons where you could have saved your ass by paying attention.

    Etc. etc.

    For the probe scans: How do you think shall one Person do that? Please check Fitting Requirements of Expanded Probe Launchers! Very hard to fit! Of course you can use mobile Depots, but again, that is weaking my other Jobs (like pve in lowsec) and just increases time and effort. And between refitting a recon can jump in the system or a guy in local changes ship at a Station and I am ****** without any Chance of escape!

    On my gravestone will be written: "Died because he used sarcasm in the wrong moment"

    TheButcherPete
    NaCl For Sale
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #777 - 2014-12-19 12:01:58 UTC
    Something to balance this suggested Recon change would be to only have the immunity active when traveling at sublight speeds, and when in warp the ship diverts too much to the warp core to keep the immunity field up.

    also if Recon capacitors end up needing a slight nerf, this would be a neat lore idea.

    [b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

    If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]

    Syzygium
    Nagamoto Inc.
    Come in and freak out
    #778 - 2014-12-19 12:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Syzygium
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    Syzygium wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.
  • Sorry, but that "great job" is done by people who *obviously* have no idea about how solo and smallscale PvP especially in Lowsec works. I have not seen any "strong arguments" that have not been proven totally wrong by simple examples, if you have found some, please name them!
    For lowsec, three very simple arguments:

    1) They're still visible in local
    2) They're visible on-grid
    3) Both fighting parties are free to use them

    What more do you need? You just have to be creative in using those 3 points better than your opponent(s).

    As already said:
    1. Local counts little in Lowsec because you have a LOT more Residents, Haulers, Shipspinners, PI Guys, POS Guys and whatnot in Local. You can almost never use Localcount to determine if there is a gang waiting or not. There can be 10 People an Local and no ship in Space. Daily Business in Lowsec. DScan is your tool to make decisions, fight or move. If you cannot rely on that tool any more, you will stop fighting or get ganked a lot.

    2. To see them on-Grid is useless when that grid is a simple trap for anyone who warps there. When you see them you can count your ship as lost because you are already dead. You drop out of warp and are almost instantly pointed, webbed, damped and whatnot because they planned their trap for exat that scenario. The only way to prevent that is sending a scout or prober before you do any warp, which makes Solo- and Smallcale PvP just horrible annoying.

    3. The larger force always have the advantage to hide a major part of their force in such recons and still use a few guys in juicy targets as bait. The smaller force will simply run into an unwinnable fight without chance to avoid it. It makes engaging larger numbers almost suicidal.

    @ CCP Rise: What kind of logic is it, to say "more fights will happen if people do not know what awaits them and so chose to fight where they normally would have ran away!" - think about what you just said there: You *force* frustration because you deny people to make the right decisions based on their scouting and experience. That is what people makes quit and saying "what a damn waste of time!" after they ran into a complete unwinnable fight just because the other side had "invisible units". Jesus...
    royal killer
    Collective-Company
    #779 - 2014-12-19 12:02:32 UTC
    I noticed that neither of the Caldari recons have duration reduction on the ECMs. Would that be too much ?
    HoruSeth
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #780 - 2014-12-19 12:02:48 UTC
    Major Trant wrote:
    Combat Recons not seen on DScan: I see this as a buff to low end Wormhole PvE myself.

    Sure you can't see a combat recon coming but it cuts both ways, you can't see a combat recon running a site either.

    People don't generally jump into WH and drop Combat probes. They jump in and do a DScan first. If they see someone, then they do a narrow DScan to the various anomalies and celestials. Only after that might they drop combat probes. There is no local in WHs so if you don't see someone on DScan you don't go probing for them.


    All I have to say about this: WRECKS! Easy to find them and by this the ano. No Advantage to PvE!!!

    On my gravestone will be written: "Died because he used sarcasm in the wrong moment"