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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

First post First post First post
Author
TheButcherPete
NaCl For Sale
Deepwater Hooligans
#781 - 2014-12-19 12:03:32 UTC
royal killer wrote:
I noticed that neither of the Caldari recons have duration reduction on the ECMs. Would that be too much ?


Yes you'll have to wait a few seconds longer to completely remove the targeted ship from the fight.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]

TuCZnak
Cyber Dong Industries
#782 - 2014-12-19 12:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: TuCZnak
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
3) Both fighting parties are free to use them


Why nerf Ishtars, both parties are free to use them, right?
Komodo Askold
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#783 - 2014-12-19 12:04:58 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Komodo Askold wrote:
Combat Probes, people. Yes, you CAN see those Combat Recons entering system, waiting for you on a site, or escorting a friend who's running the site. Drop those probes and you'll see: if it appears on the probes and not on D-Scan, then it's a Combat Recon. That's it. And remember you can place probes all over the system, much further away than your D-Scan range, effectively covering by yourself a much bigger volume. You can even place 1 or more probes at each gate, wormhole or even some sites. And, that will warn you of any kind of ship that is not cloaked, even if you have no Local.

And the insta-lock due to not being cloaked: every non-cloaked ship can do that. Even cloaky ships, if they pursposelly drop their cloak a few thousand kilometers before landing. So, stay away from those warp--in points and you'll have time to see it arrive and mash that Warp button. Especially when the incoming ship can't warp cloaked, such as... Combat Recons. And if it lands directly on you due to Combat Probes... you should have seen them in D-Scan and have acted accordingly.

You have tools to know about incoming ships; use them and you'll avoid not only Combat Recons, but many other ships too.



Now about the ship stats, I wonder if the Rook could get RLML's bonused too, or if that would be too much for it to have.


Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher requires 210 CPU
Fair point. Most of the ships used to run sites can fit it (and it will serve them not only for Combat Probes, but also Core Probes, and have much more of them loaded in the launcher, ths less reloads), but I also think their CPU usage is pretty high, especially now that more people would like to fit them in ships that are not D3's (Confessor and upcoming bros).

I would vote for a CPU cost reduction for Expanded Probe Launchers. Make them still tight, but not that much. What about 180 CPU, for example?
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#784 - 2014-12-19 12:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Caldari Recons need some kind of secondary combat characteristic. Right now both of the bonuses are to ECM, where every other Recon gets two. See this post for details.

CCP Rise wrote:
RLML for Rook. Sure. Consider it done


Thank you!! At least with RLML I can do a decent fit with T2 launchers without fitting mods.

Please look closer at the fitting for the Rook though - it needs more Powergrid. I shouldn't need a lowslot PG mod AND a T2 Anciliary Current Router just to be able to fit a half decent tank and Meta HAMs.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#785 - 2014-12-19 12:09:00 UTC
Komodo Askold wrote:


Even if you fit your Lachesis that way, that doesn't instantly mean he's pointed and dead. Even when the Lachesis bonused point range (I think it might need to be looked at), if your target did his homework he won't be sitting at the warp-in for you to land on him; he will be several kilometers away, so you'll have to use your MWD for a few seconds to catch him. Since you're warping in uncloaked, if he's aware (as he should), he will see you while decelerating from your warp: enough for him to try to warp away, especially if he's already aligned (as he should try to be). Most site-running ships can do that (the larger ones, such as battleships, should already be taking in account their own slowness and plan accordingly),


Point and web range is 93km.
You want to be in damage range to kill rats.

Lets take an angel 5/10 lowsec DED site example. In the last pocket you need to kill a structure while doging a bunch of npcs. It's will not be possible to kill that from 100km away.

I have run a bunch of sites in lowsec with PvP ships, right now you see recons declack while using the accerlation gate. With multiple pockets you have anough time to position yourself or run away. "It's an Arazu and rapier? I might be able to kill that before the main flet gets here. Oh they got an Oneiros to help them == armor tank == damps == better run!"

Now you have 10 seconds between notice and before you get pointed, webbed and damped. That means I will try to run == less pvp for both parties.

Oh, unless you use an 0 SP alt to watch the first gate! WHAT A THRILLING GAME MECHANIC! It just forces you to use more alts .. that do nothing but watch overview. Yay.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#786 - 2014-12-19 12:14:26 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Syzygium wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that.
  • Sorry, but that "great job" is done by people who *obviously* have no idea about how solo and smallscale PvP especially in Lowsec works. I have not seen any "strong arguments" that have not been proven totally wrong by simple examples, if you have found some, please name them!
    For lowsec, three very simple arguments:

    1) They're still visible in local
    2) They're visible on-grid
    3) Both fighting parties are free to use them

    What more do you need? You just have to be creative in using those 3 points better than your opponent(s).

    As already said:
    1. Local counts little in Lowsec because you have a LOT more Residents, Haulers, Shipspinners, PI Guys, POS Guys and whatnot in Local. You can almost never use Localcount to determine if there is a gang waiting or not. There can be 10 People an Local and no ship in Space. Daily Business in Lowsec. DScan is your tool to make decisions, fight or move. If you cannot rely on that tool any more, you will stop fighting or get ganked a lot.

    2. To see them on-Grid is useless when that grid is a simple trap for anyone who warps there. When you see them you can count your ship as lost because you are already dead. You drop out of warp and are almost instantly pointed, webbed, damped and whatnot because they planned their trap for exat that scenario. The only way to prevent that is sending a scout or prober before you do any warp, which makes Solo- and Smallcale PvP just horrible annoying.

    3. The larger force always have the advantage to hide a major part of their force in such recons and still use a few guys in juicy targets as bait. The smaller force will simply run into an unwinnable fight without chance to avoid it. It makes engaging larger numbers almost suicidal.

    @ CCP Rise: What kind of logic is it, to say "more fights will happen if people do not know what awaits them and so chose to fight where they normally would have ran away!" - think about what you just said there: You *force* frustration because you deny people to make the right decisions based on their scouting and experience. That is what people makes quit and saying "what a damn waste of time!" after they ran into a complete unwinnable fight just because the other side had "invisible units". Jesus...
    Just for the sake of discussion:

    1. Try Pirate's Little Helper. Awesome intel on carebears vs. pvpers (based on zkill stats), corp/alliance and affiliation, common EWAR/cap ship/cyno bait pilots, etc. It's super easy to use (just ctrl-a ctrl-c local). And come on, even on weekends there's rarely more than 20-30 or so in lowsec local...

    2. This only applies to medium FW plexes and PVE acceleration gates. Just go fight somewhere else, space is big.

    3. Not much difference from having the calvary cloaked or >14 AU away


    Not saying that you're flat wrong, but thankfully EVE PVP is complex enough that players will always find solutions to other players' tactics. That's part of the fun.

    Just saying you honestly can't be 100% (or even 90%) sure that this d-scan thing will be bad, instead of fun for all.

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

    Kyang Tia
    Matari Exodus
    #787 - 2014-12-19 12:15:03 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


    Actually, your own example is way better than the one I just made up. Think about it: If you are in 2 cruisers, you see the Vexors on this gate and you don't see the Rooks. Yes, you engage. But is this really a success or a nice game mechanic? What kind of "fight" did it just generate? A fight where one side will just be jammed out without the chance to ever do anything. The people who were slaughtered might think twice before warping to something the next time, which is precisely what many of the people here are afraid of.

    For nano stuff, it's even worse, because Recons take not only your attack capabilities but also your defence away.
    Mixu Paatelainen
    Eve Refinery
    #788 - 2014-12-19 12:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mixu Paatelainen
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.


    No, that's 1 more fight then never pvping with those characters in system again.

    This is no different to the first time you fight someone in FW and figure out they have a boost alt, identify that character then move on every time you see them in a plex. Except now those same dudes will have a recon alt in the plex with them.
    Gully Alex Foyle
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #789 - 2014-12-19 12:16:59 UTC
    TuCZnak wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    3) Both fighting parties are free to use them


    Why nerf Ishtars, both parties are free to use them, right?
    Balancing is about giving people options and not making bunches of ships entirely useless.

    Ishtars are currently pretty strong compared to all other hacs, but do you seriously think that if this change is confirmed everybody will fly just combat recons?

    Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #790 - 2014-12-19 12:21:22 UTC
    Seriously Rise (where's Fozzie in all of this?), talk us through this gameplay from a skillful player's perspective:

    You're solo in lowsec.

    That's it, that's all there is to the scenario.

    P.S. There could be a linked lachesis + huginn on every grid. That you can't dscan.

    What do you do, anywhere? How do you solo in this world? When do you not die on landing on any & every grid, on jumping every gate, without any way to get ingame intel on what awaits? Only fly frigs that can warp in a couple of seconds tops?
    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #791 - 2014-12-19 12:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    TuCZnak wrote:
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    3) Both fighting parties are free to use them


    Why nerf Ishtars, both parties are free to use them, right?
    Balancing is about giving people options and not making bunches of ships entirely useless.

    Ishtars are currently pretty strong compared to all other hacs, but do you seriously think that if this change is confirmed everybody will fly just combat recons?
    Well everyone uses ishtars and have done for ~18months now. And everyone uses rail tengus. And before that slowcats. And before that blap titans, etc. Evidently people will train for OP **** and abuse it. Crossing race isn't a limit; SP and/or isk cost don't work for balancing things! We have known & proven this for the longest time now!
    Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
    The Red Circle Inc.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #792 - 2014-12-19 12:23:44 UTC
    I confess to being somewhat concerned about DScan immunity, but I don't think it quite deserves the vitriol it's getting. Is it really that different, now, to a Covert Recon with their cloaks? Ok, you won't get the brief window to DScan one coming through a wormhole / taking an acceleration gate or whatever, but that's offset by the early warning you'll get where EvE gives a massive boom and you see the ship decelerating from warp. Either way, you have the oppurtunity to leave if you're aligned. If you're not, your loss is your fault.

    In PvP, they're less effective than cloaks, surely. All you have to do is get your scout to warp to the grid and you find out whether there's combat recons there. That's much more secure intel than if they were the now quite tanky and invisible covert recons.

    This change ain't worth the vitriol it's getting. Cloaky force multipliers in the form of T3s and covert recons have not broken the game, this won't either.
    Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
    The Red Circle Inc.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #793 - 2014-12-19 12:24:42 UTC
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    Seriously Rise (where's Fozzie in all of this?), talk us through this gameplay from a skillful player's perspective:

    You're solo in lowsec.

    That's it, that's all there is to the scenario.

    P.S. There could be a linked lachesis + huginn on every grid. That you can't dscan.

    What do you do, anywhere? How do you solo in this world? When do you not die on landing on any & every grid, on jumping every gate, without any way to get ingame intel on what awaits? Only fly frigs that can warp in a couple of seconds tops?


    The same way you solo currently, trusting that not everyone has thought to bring a cloaky T3 or Rapier or Arazu. It's no different, surely?
    Jori McKie
    African Atomic.
    HIDDEN LEAF VILLAGE NINJA AssAssIn SQUAD eSports
    #794 - 2014-12-19 12:26:37 UTC
    Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
    I confess to being somewhat concerned about DScan immunity, but I don't think it quite deserves the vitriol it's getting. Is it really that different, now, to a Covert Recon with their cloaks? Ok, you won't get the brief window to DScan one coming through a wormhole / taking an acceleration gate or whatever, but that's offset by the early warning you'll get where EvE gives a massive boom and you see the ship decelerating from warp. Either way, you have the oppurtunity to leave if you're aligned. If you're not, your loss is your fault.

    In PvP, they're less effective than cloaks, surely. All you have to do is get your scout to warp to the grid and you find out whether there's combat recons there. That's much more secure intel than if they were the now quite tanky and invisible covert recons.

    This change ain't worth the vitriol it's getting. Cloaky force multipliers in the form of T3s and covert recons have not broken the game, this won't either.

    Have you seen a cloak T3 fit, like you use in Blops? It is gimped and rightly so, T3 Recons are at least 2.5 times more expansive than Recons (yes T3 have better tank) and you risk to lose a skill.
    Force Recons with cloak are gimped and rightly so compared to full tank and full utility Combat Recon. It is simple why should i use a gimped cloak Recon when i can use a Recon with better tank and same utility including being cloaked until probes.

    "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

    Wille Sanara
    No Shoosting
    #795 - 2014-12-19 12:26:58 UTC
    Giving them immunity to D-SCAN is just stupid. It makes them overpowered, a lot. You wont see anything else but recons in WHs after the changes.
    Daneel Trevize
    Give my 11percent back
    #796 - 2014-12-19 12:27:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
    Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:
    Daneel Trevize wrote:
    Seriously Rise (where's Fozzie in all of this?), talk us through this gameplay from a skillful player's perspective:

    You're solo in lowsec.

    That's it, that's all there is to the scenario.

    P.S. There could be a linked lachesis + huginn on every grid. That you can't dscan.

    What do you do, anywhere? How do you solo in this world? When do you not die on landing on any & every grid, on jumping every gate, without any way to get ingame intel on what awaits? Only fly frigs that can warp in a couple of seconds tops?


    The same way you solo currently, trusting that not everyone has thought to bring a cloaky T3 or Rapier or Arazu. It's no different, surely?
    No I don't gamble upon the statisically bad chance that they don't have recons with them, in lowsec. And those odds will of course hugely change if this OP change is available to people.
    You would dscan and either see the cloaky recon being not cloaked; or you warp in and have 6+ seconds to reposition/warp away again.

    In this proposed world the recons will be dscanning you coming close and ready to tackle you as soon as you land/break landing invulnerability. You will not get to overheated-mwd away, or warp off if fitted for ~5sec agility. Warping anywhere not at 0km to a gate/station would be a total gamble. How then do you solo in anything not mostly covered by plat insurance? In a manner that is skill-based rather than a pure crapshoot dice roll every single jump and/or warp, that is.

    Edit: Chessur made an excellent extra point on FHC:
    Even if you start a fight without recons present, currently a skillful player will keep dscan cycling to assist their decision of whether to keep committing to a fight or to time a sensible retreat. When you can't see a huginn, rook or curse coming, how will you make intelligent choices about deciding to start to deaggro or pull range to break tackle, or even just move towards/away from a likely warp-in line in order to swap to handing the new arrival?
    SyntheticSins
    Wraithguard.
    The Wraithguard.
    #797 - 2014-12-19 12:31:08 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Dscan immunity is staying. We understand a lot of the concerns raised, but for most of them you guys are doing a great job making strong counter-arguments and I think it will be very interesting to see how this mechanic plays out on TQ. I want to put together a lengthier post soon with more explanation for this mechanic and why we feel comfortable with it, but you will have to wait a bit longer for that..

  • This may come off as a bit harsh, but CCP Rise, I hope you know that the majority of the solo community you left behind in Eve hate you. This is not coming just from me, I'm simply delivering the message here. I have spent the last three hours this morning listening to people cuss you out (again).

    That being said. Here's my actual constructive argument.

    In most fights, large, small, and solo, recons play a huge role even in their current unbuffed state. (As everything in eve has been buffed). The fact of having long-range tackle, heavy neuting power, ECM to demolish opposing forces or to render damage ships useless, or stationary enough to hit. These are huge buffs to the recons. I do admit - the current recons lack in two area's - damage and TANK.

    But even with that, they are still capable of doing these major role-changing things: Locking down targets. Cyno'ing, Covert Cyno'ing. That is their advantage.

    We already have little awareness if recons are in use. the slight split second if we manage to hit d-scan if he is decloaked to drop probes, or hits a gate. In most situations they are a nasty surprise that could mean our end. But in other situations they are the split-second reason we save ourselves from entering a death-trap.

    On the PvE side of things, obviously carebearing in null/wormholes will be that much harder. I think it's a f**king stupid argument to make; "You just have your alt to watch the gate." To assume that all players in eve have a dedicated alt with which to use freely. I admit, I do, and I still think that is why this game is broken, considering I cannot maintain safety or mobility without having a second character to devote to the untidy (often nasty) tasks of scouting/moving/ gathering resources.

    I get that recons are mostly scouted when jumping gates, and I would have rather seen the ability being used as; "remains cloaked during gate transit" or something akin to that rather than a simple middle finger to directional scan. That seems to me a lazy way of going about things.

    Recons are already a problem. I feel that taking away the slightest hint that they are even there will cripple a lot of players/fleets/carebears/nullbears. Yes this change sounds awesome from those that like to fly recon ships (me included.) But I also enjoy flying other things, and 90% of my losses already account to rapiers/falcons.

    No, I won't quit eve. I will exploit this game change in every way possible like the next guy. In fact, it may become my new doctrine. I think it's an unnecessary change and will do more to harm than good. I am an atheist yet I'll pray for those lonely 1 account players trying to mission run in plexes I've already scanned around constillation. :(
    Kmelx
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #798 - 2014-12-19 12:33:25 UTC
    For someone who was allegedly a solo pvper Rise, you seem to be doing everything you can to destroy solo pvp outside of disposable frigate and destroyer class hulls and your ruining small gang pvp as an encore whilst your at it.

    T1 Logi - can't break it outside of a solo command ship or BS. It sits at the stupid ranges you gave the damn things and can rep the damage most solo cruisers and BCs can put out. It's utterly disposable and cheap so all the bads have lots of T1 logi alts.

    Geddons - Massive tanks and stupidly long range neuts along with drone dps, they just destroy the tanks on the majority of those aforementioned solo command ships and BS. And if you want to try to kite one you need max links and a faction point. Your supposed to be in charge of balance. What on earth made you think this was a balanced change in the first place?

    Now you want to introduce a change where a ship that gives a massive force multiplier in all forms of small gang warfare and would guarantee a solo pvpers death if it was flown with even a modicum of skill or sense, is undetectable except to combat probes.

    You do realiise that we play this game to have fun right?

    You do also realize that fighting recons in solo or small gang is not fun right?

    Your aware that they ruin fights and convey a massive combat advantage to the side that possess them right?

    You do realize that dropping probes in every system before taking a fight is not fun right? Your aware probing is a time consuming and crap mechanic right?

    Your aware that if I'm faced with a choice between taking a fight with a gang which might have a recon that I can't detect and which will kill me, and combating their gang, or just docking up or avoiding the fight will lead me to take the last choice right?

    Is it your aim to just force solo and small gang pvpers to just join goons or some other crap group and F1 monkey their way to the pinnacle of badness.
    Heleana Commodus Luyseyal
    Suddenly Carebears
    #799 - 2014-12-19 12:34:19 UTC
  • The Pilgrim. Opinions seem mixed, gaining neut range is obviously nice but many of you still feel that giving up neut strength is too harsh, or that some other added power is needed (more damage for instance). Will get back to you on this as soon as possible but it's possible that we will make adjustments.

  • If damage buff, 125mb drone bandwith, otherwise Pilgrim will be stratios w/o scan strength bonus. Actually 125mb drone bandwith would make pilgrim interesting, unique and versitile ship to fly, PvE and PvP wise, also would make some sense with that neut range bonus.

    Syzygium
    Nagamoto Inc.
    Come in and freak out
    #800 - 2014-12-19 12:34:28 UTC
    Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
    2. This only applies to medium FW plexes and PVE acceleration gates. Just go fight somewhere else, space is big.

    3. Not much difference from having the calvary cloaked or >14 AU away

    And here is why you are soooo wrong.

    I am not limited to medium FW plexes, I an set up this trap at ANY celestial where people can warp to 0-100. If there is an acceleration gate that wont let me go in, I simply wait BEFORE that gate at 50km. Same goes for Planets, Belts, Moons, Star. Whoever is warping there will land more or less 50km within my ganksquads range and is simply *dead*. And if other Recons are incoming, my Squad is in Warp before they have a lock.

    So yes, it is a HUGE difference in reaction time window for the incoming pilots between invisible recons and "cavalry 14 AU out". A HUGE one.