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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1501 - 2014-08-14 09:50:55 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Not true at all on the battleship level.

Name a battleship (other than the scorpion or nestor) that is unused and I can probably name a type of gameplay where they are commonly used and resonably decent.



There was one at the title of this thread and half the thread is about it. ANd a gameplay shoudl not be a niche that happens 5 times per year.


You do realize that the title refers to the patch name which is "Hyperion" instead of the ship which is not getting any adjustments at all?



You realize that the original tittle of the thread was balance of HAcs and Tempest.. and I am not talking about the hyperion? Arrive late and yet expect to sit at the window?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#1502 - 2014-08-14 10:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Not true at all on the battleship level.

Name a battleship (other than the scorpion or nestor) that is unused and I can probably name a type of gameplay where they are commonly used and resonably decent.



There was one at the title of this thread and half the thread is about it. ANd a gameplay shoudl not be a niche that happens 5 times per year.


You do realize that the title refers to the patch name which is "Hyperion" instead of the ship which is not getting any adjustments at all?



You realize that the original tittle of the thread was balance of HAcs and Tempest.. and I am not talking about the hyperion? Arrive late and yet expect to sit at the window?


Title never had Tempest on it, just a footnote on the OP. Just because I don't shiptoast from page 1 it doesn't mean I wasn't reading the thread within 1h of the creation.
lord xavier
Rubbed Out
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#1503 - 2014-08-14 11:21:51 UTC
That eagle change, oh my. I am going to invest billions into the hull so reap the rewards of the price spike on it because it will be the next big fleet doctrine since the ishtar is getting completely pummeled into the ground. /sarcasm


Realistically battleships are not used outside of large-scale combat. They just are not used for roaming. Why roam in something that crawls through a warp when you can use a T3 that does the same damage, similiar tank, smaller sig radius, more maneuverability and warps faster? I mean seriously? Why use a battleship for POCO/POS bashing when a Tr3 BC does more damage and GTFO's faster? Vindis, Bhaals and RS are used but 2 of the 3 are used mainly in HS wardecs. The other is used with the support of carriers. NAPOCs are used from time to time, though not often. I have seen BL using Maels but again, not as often as HACs. It has really become a HAC and T3 warfare in all parts of Eve with the exception of POCO/POS bashing which is either Tr3 or Dreads or Frigates in FW space.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1504 - 2014-08-14 11:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
lord xavier wrote:
That eagle change, oh my. I am going to invest billions into the hull so reap the rewards of the price spike on it because it will be the next big fleet doctrine since the ishtar is getting completely pummeled into the ground. /sarcasm


Realistically battleships are not used outside of large-scale combat. They just are not used for roaming. Why roam in something that crawls through a warp when you can use a T3 that does the same damage, similiar tank, smaller sig radius, more maneuverability and warps faster? I mean seriously? Why use a battleship for POCO/POS bashing when a Tr3 BC does more damage and GTFO's faster? Vindis, Bhaals and RS are used but 2 of the 3 are used mainly in HS wardecs. The other is used with the support of carriers. NAPOCs are used from time to time, though not often. I have seen BL using Maels but again, not as often as HACs. It has really become a HAC and T3 warfare in all parts of Eve with the exception of POCO/POS bashing which is either Tr3 or Dreads or Frigates in FW space.


poor eagle .. it needs more speed and some drones . it has a dronebay on the model now aswell .. a blaster eagle would be nice..

T3's really need a hammer too its tank .. T2 resists don't make sense at all not being T2 like ... less focus on tank and dps and more on versatility would be nice... remove rigs so swapping subs is realistic ( when they make them cheap that is) ..

ABC's still do too much dps .. should be moved too T2 .. they are specialist ships FACT.. and would make them used in smaller numbers and perhaps would stop the arty nado .. what a shame that would be .. arties really need too trade some alpha for ROF.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#1505 - 2014-08-14 12:55:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

.. arties really need too trade some alpha for ROF.



and everything would start creeping towards each other to becoming the same.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1506 - 2014-08-14 12:57:14 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:


Title never had Tempest on it, just a footnote on the OP. Just because I don't shiptoast from page 1 it doesn't mean I wasn't reading the thread within 1h of the creation.



Wrogn it had, but he removed within 30 minutes. I was checking this very forum when he posted it and saw the thread probably within 10 secodns of its posting.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1507 - 2014-08-14 13:06:20 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

.. arties really need too trade some alpha for ROF.



and everything would start creeping towards each other to becoming the same.


not really 1 thing out of hundreds would move slightly towards the normal centre ground

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#1508 - 2014-08-14 14:30:21 UTC
I love my drones but the Ishtar is unengagable. The best way to fix it is to reduce its drone band with to 100.

It has better application than the Myrmidon.

It doesn't have the Dominixes DPS.

Now it fits comfortably between battle cruisers and battleships where it belongs.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#1509 - 2014-08-14 14:57:40 UTC
Zealot: Gets overshadowed by the NOmen. The ship generally feels underwhelming and can't project dps anything like the Ishtar can.

Scariledge: Is a good brawler. Don't think this needs much help. HML's maybe a little too underwhelming to be used on this.

Eagle: Not bad but needs a dronebay along with the speed buff you have already put in this thread.

Cerberus: Pretty well balanced kiter/brawler and can project with HML and also create an anti frigate bubble.

Diemos: Very well balanced HAC. Can perform multiple roles but excels in solo brawling.

Ishtar: Still overpowered even after this nerf. Projects far too much dps over far too much range. I think the only way to fix the Ishtar is to create small and medium sentry drones and reduce the bandwidth to 50M/Bits and increase bonus to medium drones.

Vagabond: Only issue with this ship is that it's dull. It can do two things and that's it. XL-ASB brawling or kite. Only thing I would change on this ship is to move a low to a mid and buff the CPU by 10%.

Muninn: Awful sniper. Underwhelming brawler. Can kind of kite with arties but it's a poor performer. Could use an extra gun or an extra low slot. Needs better projection too.
Wingzero Mileghere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1510 - 2014-08-14 16:44:40 UTC
Leave the ishtar alone this nerf will be enough this ship is great for PvE because of the fact that it can use sentries PvP not so much as soon as you get close the ship melts so if you get killed by it sorry about your luck get a bigger group and come back quit whining so much that's how good ships like the old drake get turned into crap like the current POS missile boat we have now
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1511 - 2014-08-14 16:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Power creep is not a great end goal in itself, but neither is power slide or a race to the bottom.

If a ship is out of balance, ask CCP to create an effective counter to it, then you get more choice and a wider range of possibilities and a richer more enjoyable game..

Of course alternatively, nerf Drake, Nerf Heavy missiles, nerf ishtar, always works out so well doesn't it.......Roll


Creating an effective counter to Ishtar also creates an effective counter to anything which kites at 2k+ speeds, has capless BS weapons, can swap out guns on-demand and uses no fitting for said guns for beefier tank.

That ship will outclass most of all the other ships also and we are left with 1 OP, 1 good and a legion of sub-par ships.

Only way to create an Ishtar-counter is to have a ship with 1m sig radius, 5k+ speed, 40k scram range, 1 turret and 15 000% damage bonus to the single turret against Ishtars only.



A little bit of exageration there.. would be easier to give a battleships 9000% per level range for smartbombs :P


A simple ammunition option that was effective against sentry drones, but weak against moving targets would fit well with a long range weapon.

There's your counter.
If you cannot kill the ship, and your problem is with it's weapon, disable or destroy it's weapon.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1512 - 2014-08-14 18:21:05 UTC
If part of the problem with the Ishtar is that it can have an effectively unlimited drone bay (and sure, I've done the eject-from-cargo-scoop-to-drone-bay trick, too), what if drone bays worked like turrets?

Make them able to be filled and ammo swapped immediately in stations, but with a reload timer in space; say, 10 seconds. Better yet, have the reload time scale with drone size, with sentries being the slowest. Additionally, have the drones in space count against the drone bay size.

Now, even with full carrier/supercarrier support, sentry boats that have their drones shot out from under them have an awkward period where they're doing 0 DPS while their crew loads the new drones into position.

Too harsh?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

unslaught
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1513 - 2014-08-14 19:09:47 UTC
i think removing the optimal range bonus for sentries will do the job very well, and maybe even lower base optimal for gardes and curators/bouncers, wardens are fine imo. lowering the ishtar speed is pretty silly tbh.

Also people seem to forget that sentries have 1 of the largest disadvantages ingame. they can't move!! throw some bombs or a sb bs in between and it's game over fast.

making a heavy drone based cruiser would be nice if the speed bonus to heavies becomes 20% or 25% per lvl, because really they are sooooooo slow it's rediculous to use them atm unless you have a dual web, scram setup for brawling, further then 20km and they become like useless flying scrap metal.

i think the ishtar is fine with using sentries, they just don't need to be buffed like is the case now.

something like:

gallente cruiser: 7.5% bonus to heavy and 5% sentry drone tracking, 7.5% bonus to heavy drone mwd speed
hac: 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and dmg, 7.5% bonus to heavy drone mwd speed

role: 50% reduction in mwd sig radius

remove the 5km drone control range, this way people will sooner avoid them for long range pvp

this way it becomes viable to use heavies more because they will reach medium drone speeds (or beyond).

i mean i have been using heavies for a while for pve and it's rediculous atm...

to some here, stop with this "the ishtar needs to be nerfed with only medium and light drones"... yeah sure so 2 days after patch we can all start bitching at how useless the ishtar has become... it is a HEAVY assault cruiser, so HEAVY drones would be nice yes. the same as using HEAVY missile launchers on a cerb ;), HEAVY blasters on a deimos , HEAVY pulse lasers on a zealot etc...

restrict the gardes to 20km, curator to 40, bouncer to 50 (they have enough falloff) and wardens the same as now. i think the problem is the sentries more then the ishtar. they just reach to far out in comparisson to most weapon systems. combine this with the insane optimal bonus and - very much needed -tracking bonus and it becomes op.
bassy nook
Blaze Orange Expeditions
#1514 - 2014-08-14 19:15:00 UTC
Harvey James wrote:


Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???





Shocked

Why nerf another minmatar ship? They are known for their speed and agility not their reiliency.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#1515 - 2014-08-14 20:21:43 UTC
unslaught wrote:
i think removing the optimal range bonus for sentries will do the job very well, and maybe even lower base optimal for gardes and curators/bouncers, wardens are fine imo. lowering the ishtar speed is pretty silly tbh.

Also people seem to forget that sentries have 1 of the largest disadvantages ingame. they can't move!! throw some bombs or a sb bs in between and it's game over fast.




Just drop another set you know cause you carry more than one set. Now if you reduce it to be only able to carry a set and a half or something than it becomes a penalty
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#1516 - 2014-08-14 20:48:01 UTC
Here's a crazy idea. Keep the drone bandwith the same. Make sentries take 30m3. Increase Dominix/ Geddon etc bandwith to 150.

Replace sentry bonus to heavy drone tracking and orbit speed bonus. Now the Ishtar can't use battleship sized weapons but has great damage application with heavies.
unslaught
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1517 - 2014-08-14 21:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: unslaught
Endo Saissore wrote:
Here's a crazy idea. Keep the drone bandwith the same. Make sentries take 30m3. Increase Dominix/ Geddon etc bandwith to 150.

Replace sentry bonus to heavy drone tracking and orbit speed bonus. Now the Ishtar can't use battleship sized weapons but has great damage application with heavies.



i like this idea, but the heavies are way to slow atm for use in pvp/pve - unless for brawling, orbit velocity boost would be very nice indeed (for pvp i'm less convinced).
still 7.5% mwd speed bonus for heavies is to slow for a hac imo. balance them out so the slowest reach ham speeds, the fastest reach heavy missile speed. only on bonussed hulls such as the ishtar or eos.

anyways i like the idea of not using sentries on ishtars but then heavies need some serious work - or bonusses - to be even close to good
Count Vladimir Dracula
The Crimson Elixir
#1518 - 2014-08-14 21:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Count Vladimir Dracula
The issue with the Isthar isn't raw damage, or speed or even the drones themselves, it's all about damage projection. It does the same dps at 70km that all the other HACs have to be within 10km to do. That's the real issue. Thanks to drone upgrades, there isn't any way around this issue short of giving the Ishtar a -50% drone optimal range penalty as a "role bonus."

That leaves us with nerfing the hull directly. The simplest approach has already been mentioned, dropping the bandwidth so it can run a full flight of sentries. Combined with some turret bonuses, 75 bandwidth could work for both long range and short ranged setups.

Another more interesting option is the light and medium sentry drones mentioned earlier. I consider that the ideal solution combined with a nerf to 50 bandwidth. It also adds in all sorts of interesting options for other ships. I'd love to see those added and that made as the ultimate solution. More work perhaps, but definitely worth doing.

Ineffective changes include: removing the drone control range bonus, nerfing the tracking/range bonuses and other such things. The simple fact is, those high slots are used for small neuts which are almost never actually used. It can easily replace those with drone link augmenters. The range and tracking bonuses are nice, but the modules boosting those attributes are more powerful. That bonus could be removed completely and it wouldn't have much of an impact overall.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#1519 - 2014-08-14 21:54:06 UTC
Removed a troll post.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1520 - 2014-08-14 22:42:49 UTC
Besides which, heavies are battleship weapons as well.