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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1461 - 2014-08-13 11:59:53 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Game theory as taught by who, acti-blizzard? Get out, you know nothing.


Having taken my fair share of game theory, I have to agree with you.

I have never heard of power creep being a good thing for anyone who isn't trying to make their players run the loot treadmill.

Which, as it turns out, people hate.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1462 - 2014-08-13 12:01:05 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


No its not.. and EVERYONE that studied game design theory knows that. On the long run it is the most easily available tool to keep peopel interested in the game. That has been expressed clearly on all tradign card games, the ones that decided to avoid power creep ALL died, not a single exception. The ones that learned how to manage it survived and gained more players.

psychology is more important in game design than math.


EVE isn't a trading card game.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1463 - 2014-08-13 12:03:40 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Geckos brings you to 1700, bright eyes.

1500 is applicable DPS.



Augmented Ogres are higher again.

Yeah, they're pretty damn cool and its nice that the rattler makes such efficient use of them, since it turns 2 drones into 5
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#1464 - 2014-08-13 12:10:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


No its not.. and EVERYONE that studied game design theory knows that. On the long run it is the most easily available tool to keep peopel interested in the game. That has been expressed clearly on all tradign card games, the ones that decided to avoid power creep ALL died, not a single exception. The ones that learned how to manage it survived and gained more players.

psychology is more important in game design than math.


EVE isn't a trading card game.

And as such does not base it's income on how many people are willing to put money into a blind draw from a limited selection of things in hopes of getting the shiny thing. That would be blink or vegas depending on taste.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1465 - 2014-08-13 12:56:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Game theory as taught by who, acti-blizzard? Get out, you know nothing.


Having taken my fair share of game theory, I have to agree with you.

I have never heard of power creep being a good thing for anyone who isn't trying to make their players run the loot treadmill.

Which, as it turns out, people hate.


The real issue with powercreep in EVE is the lack of exit solution. If your powercreep treadmill is followed correctly with a scaling content treadmill, you are really only giving new models of loot to your player. This just can't be done in EVE.
Josef Djugashvilis
#1466 - 2014-08-13 13:21:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

When you get rid of 'flavour of the month' enough times, you end up with, Vanilla Online Smile


Are you even capable of making an argument that isn't built on hyperbole? Seriously.

Oh, and by the way. You want to know what Vanilla Online really is? Where one freaking ship is so much better than every other one in it's class, that there isn't any point in using anything else.

Game balance = variety of choices. It's the exact opposite of what fools like you think.


Thank you for your kind words good sir.

You are still my favourite crazy poster Smile

This is not a signature.

FLICK ME
Cai's Helth House
Cohortes Triarii
#1467 - 2014-08-13 13:49:23 UTC
Reduce heavy drone bandwidth to 20, reduce ishtar bandwidth to remove BATTLESHIP class weapon from CRUISER Hull.

Either that or give me an Eagle that can fit large hybrids and watch hilarity ensue.

KTHNXBYE
Thorado
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1468 - 2014-08-13 13:57:36 UTC
Dark Magni wrote:
Why balance the Ishtar slowly and not just straight away? I read through the first 30 pages of this thread and all the areas that need to be considered have been intelligently highlighted, and actually repeated quite a few times.


Oh and please can you give new subscribers a large learning speed advantage for example 5x learning speed for first 6 weeks? I want less empty systems!


BUFF NOOBS FILL SERVER VERY GOOD


Cheers



I like this idea of giving new players a boost to learning for the first few weeks/months maybe with a reducing multiplier over the timescale. This to me is preferable rather than noodleing and twiddling with ships all the time. Crikey every time I check something is buffed and another nerfed.

I'm gonna rather play Happy Wars instead it is so much fun without the unnecessary constant interventions.

My 2 cents worth anyway.

No dramas
Thorado

Astral Jesus
Doomheim
#1469 - 2014-08-13 14:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Astral Jesus
TrouserDeagle wrote:
power creep is done because people cry loads about nerfs, even though buffing 1 thing is basically the same as nerfing everything other than that thing. if you disagree, you're terrible.


And nerfing one thing is basically the same as buffing everything else against that one thing... what's your point? Nerfs lead to power creep just as easily as buffs do, it's just the direction of the creep that changes. If you disagree, you're even more terrible.

Power creep is an inevitable result of adding variety to a game. The only way to avoid power creep is to achieve relative balance and then not implement anything new or unique ever again. Which is an even faster way to kill EVE than accepting power creep as an inevitability of change, and trying to manage it accordingly.

The only difference between nerfing and buffing is the number of people you **** off when you get it wrong.

**** it yo, add a ship that has +10% per level damage against Ishtars. IDGAF anymore.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1470 - 2014-08-13 14:05:33 UTC
Astral Jesus wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
power creep is done because people cry loads about nerfs, even though buffing 1 thing is basically the same as nerfing everything other than that thing. if you disagree, you're terrible.


And nerfing one thing is basically the same as buffing everything else against that one thing... what's your point? Nerfs lead to power creep just as easily as buffs do, it's just the direction of the creep that changes. If you disagree, you're even more terrible.

Power creep is an inevitable result of adding variety to a game. The only way to avoid power creep is to achieve relative balance and then not implement anything new or unique ever again. Which is an even faster way to kill EVE than accepting power creep as an inevitability of change, and trying to manage it accordingly.

The only difference between nerfing and buffing is the number of people you **** off when you get it wrong.


because we're talking about overpowered things, and there are crazy people saying stuff like 'buff all the other hacs', and being uninformed about power creep. nerfing an overpowered thing is not any kind of 'creep', neither is making new things.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1471 - 2014-08-13 14:13:53 UTC
Astral Jesus wrote:


And nerfing one thing is basically the same as buffing everything else against that one thing...


No its not. Power creep happens when you buff a few ships to balance them with an overpowered ship which then makes all of those ships overpowered so you have to buff even more ships leading to a neverending spiral of buffs.

Nerfing the overpowered ship fixes the problem.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1472 - 2014-08-13 14:38:37 UTC
As a note to give some insight into my perspective I was not happy with the teiricide and I think you guys have set yourself down a never ending path of buffing and nerfing that will never end much in the same way that WoW has. I'm not sure what you are hoping to accomplish by ensuring that ships usage is similar across all races. Everyone can fly every ship if they train for it so I'm not sure what you think that you are "balancing" by making all the ships effectively the same.

My main question revolves around medium turrets. Last that I checked medium long range guns were doing more dps than short range guns. It seems the long guns were buffed somewhere along the line and short guns got left out. Has this been corrected or was this intended and if not do you plan on keeping it this way? Are small and medium turrets going to be changed to match?

Then you have the moa and the zealot which have no drone bandwidth or bay even though their T1 counterparts do. This makes these ships nearly useless in PvE currently as you'd be silly to take the significant dps loss from putting pulses on the zealot for example but if you use beams and the frigs get under them and point you then the only thing you can do is slow boat off grid until the NPCs reset at about 250 km from their spawn point. I mean maybe you have a niche in mind for these ships like snipe fleets or assume that these are mostly PvP or fleet ships which is fine. I'm just saying that the long / short gun balance change plus the lack of drones on these two ships ( of which I've only actually flown the zealot ) makes for an odd situation.

I like having ships that have a special role and not good at everything so I'm not asking for the zealot and eagle to be changed more looking to confirm that you guys planned for these to be as they are.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1473 - 2014-08-13 14:42:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Astral Jesus wrote:


And nerfing one thing is basically the same as buffing everything else against that one thing...


No its not. Power creep happens when you buff a few ships to balance them with an overpowered ship which then makes all of those ships overpowered so you have to buff even more ships leading to a neverending spiral of buffs.

Nerfing the overpowered ship fixes the problem.


Another thing to consider is that this power creep not only affects PvP but isk / hour potential thus messing with the game economy.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1474 - 2014-08-13 14:48:32 UTC
lolpve
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1475 - 2014-08-13 15:08:00 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:


Game theory as taught by who, acti-blizzard? Get out, you know nothing.


No.. by proper people that study it. Most of what I know, learned in Wizards of the Coast.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1476 - 2014-08-13 15:10:03 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Astral Jesus wrote:


And nerfing one thing is basically the same as buffing everything else against that one thing...


No its not. Power creep happens when you buff a few ships to balance them with an overpowered ship which then makes all of those ships overpowered so you have to buff even more ships leading to a neverending spiral of buffs.

Nerfing the overpowered ship fixes the problem.


Another thing to consider is that this power creep not only affects PvP but isk / hour potential thus messing with the game economy.



You can make power creep on things that do not affect or affect more one or the other. Fact remains, people find things interesting when they are better than what they are used to have. That is part of normal human mind. When you cannot bring up novelty, a slight power creep is a very effective way to bring up attention. But one must be very careful when doing that.

I for once, returned to this game exactly to experiment one of the power creep changes in tiercide.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1477 - 2014-08-13 15:11:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Astral Jesus wrote:


And nerfing one thing is basically the same as buffing everything else against that one thing...


No its not. Power creep happens when you buff a few ships to balance them with an overpowered ship which then makes all of those ships overpowered so you have to buff even more ships leading to a neverending spiral of buffs.

Nerfing the overpowered ship fixes the problem.



Not when the result is that neither that ship neither the other ones are used..... If the level of the worse ships is too low to draw player focus, then nerfing the good one is BAD game design. When the worse ones are not used ONLy because the good one is too good, then yes a nerf is the correct move.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1478 - 2014-08-13 15:12:21 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


No its not.. and EVERYONE that studied game design theory knows that. On the long run it is the most easily available tool to keep peopel interested in the game. That has been expressed clearly on all tradign card games, the ones that decided to avoid power creep ALL died, not a single exception. The ones that learned how to manage it survived and gained more players.

psychology is more important in game design than math.


EVE isn't a trading card game.



true,, it has yet to evolve a lot to achieve the same maturity on balance and game design.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1479 - 2014-08-13 15:15:39 UTC
FLICK ME wrote:
Reduce heavy drone bandwidth to 20, reduce ishtar bandwidth to remove BATTLESHIP class weapon from CRUISER Hull.

Either that or give me an Eagle that can fit large hybrids and watch hilarity ensue.

KTHNXBYE


We already have what were called the tier 3 battlecruisers which are medium ships with large guns. So that would not be unprecedented.

As far medium ships competing with Battleships I don't think there is anything new there either. For a long time we've had T3 and T2 medium hulls that can compete with BSs for dps and tank but also have similar costs. For example a couple years back it used to be that the Ishtar had almost as much dps as a Dominix and could have a similar tank if you were say orbiting your senries versus the Domi standing still. The Ishtar had more speed and better resists but lower HP and a higher price tag. So both ships had their ups and downs and there were times when you'd want one over the other. Now-a-days they have jacked up the price of the Dominix so that balance has changed.

I'm not really sure what you want to happen here. If you nerf HACs enought to make them not compete with BSs then they really aren't better enough than their T1 counter parts to make them worth the price tag. Even if you do accomplish that we still have Tech 3 cruisers with BS level tank and dps.

You'd pretty much have to revisit the whole idea of roles of the various ship sizes and tracking mechanics. I kind of like how things are now and don't like much the idea that BSs should be the end all be all. I like when new players come to the game and they ask me what's the best ship in game and I have to explain to them that such a thing does not exist and that they will have to develop their own play style and see what works best for them .

This game isn't WoW and I'd rather not turn it into that.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
#1480 - 2014-08-13 16:01:00 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:

...

I like when new players come to the game and they ask me what's the best ship in game and I have to explain to them that such a thing does not exist and that they will have to develop their own play style and see what works best for them .

This game isn't WoW and I'd rather not turn it into that.


And therein lies the contradiction. I have mates joining and others returning from a couple of years ago.

Whats the best ship to get into?, shield or armour, small and fast, good for gang work, pos bashing and pve, good sniping and brawling, can take on a BS and cruiser, as well as frigates. Oh, and I want DPS well above 700 of any type, and the ability to fit with no hassle.

Years ago, you would say you need a good cruiser - HAC, and a good BS ... pick your race, it will take more than one ship.

Now its just one ship. It sits way ahead of every other HAC. Its problem is Sentries, its too good by such a margin, too capable to actually promote a decision to choose anything else.