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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1541 - 2014-08-15 12:33:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
bassy nook wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???





Shocked

Why nerf another minmatar ship? They are known for their speed and agility not their reiliency.


I think the vagabond might have touched him in his no-no spot. Then he fails to understand minmatar lore and how their ships operate.

I don't think i saw that quote before, but cynabal is actually faster than vagabond with MWD on. Base speed, vaga is faster, but MWD on, cynabal is faster. Not sure how that works, maybe its a mass/agility thing? Or EFT bug, idk.

Then he mentions its faster than a stabber.. that gets me every time. In his world, t2 should be worse than t1 i guess.


its not about better or worse .. its about roles .. Vaga is a HAC HAC= resilient .. so tough not speedy ...
Cynabal and stabber are both Attack cruisers.. Attack = speedy not tough

vaga seems too be both roles at the same time...


Nope.. HACs theme is not resilience. Hacs theme is SPECIALIZATION. VAga was the fastest no interceptor ship in eve for half of eve life.


specialised at being resilient .. we asked for a clear role Rise gave us resilience and buffed sensor strength and cap on all HAC's ...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1542 - 2014-08-15 12:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
bassy nook wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???





Shocked

Why nerf another minmatar ship? They are known for their speed and agility not their reiliency.


I think the vagabond might have touched him in his no-no spot. Then he fails to understand minmatar lore and how their ships operate.

I don't think i saw that quote before, but cynabal is actually faster than vagabond with MWD on. Base speed, vaga is faster, but MWD on, cynabal is faster. Not sure how that works, maybe its a mass/agility thing? Or EFT bug, idk.

Then he mentions its faster than a stabber.. that gets me every time. In his world, t2 should be worse than t1 i guess.


its not about better or worse .. its about roles .. Vaga is a HAC HAC= resilient .. so tough not speedy ...
Cynabal and stabber are both Attack cruisers.. Attack = speedy not tough

vaga seems too be both roles at the same time...



The vaga's ROLE is to be fast. Thats where the stabber line was leading up to, the stabber is fast, but weak once caught. The vaga is the same way, except instead of 20k EHP, it gets around 35k EHP due to the resilient nature of HAC's w/ t2 resists. It can't brawl, and has a lame applied dps at point range.

If you look at the t1 lines, they all lead up to a similar counterpart with the t2 line with the same roles, they've just been improved (t2). Please read my earlier post where it outlines all this for you.

If you slow the vaga down, then the stabber would need to be slower (since you're changing their roles), at which point the ships would suck and no one would use them, or even less than they (vaga) are now. Consider this. Which t1 attack cruiser is the fastest? Caracal? no. Omen? no. Thorax? no. Stabber? yes. Which HAC is the fastest? Vagabond! Did you think that maybe, minmatar SPECIALIZE in speed and not tank? Have you ever fought a stabber? They aren't the most tanky of cruisers (relying on 2 tank slots normally for shield tanking). The vagabond is NOT resilient, good pilots just know to use its speed to mitigate damage. If you're stupid and approach someone, the vaga WILL die to just about any brawler.

Also, i don't see any other HAC that expects to tank with 1-2 slots. You're telling me the vaga is too strong with its 1-2 slot tank? Where as a sac has a resist bonus and up to 5 lows for a tank. Maybe you just need to get better and learn to counter it with long range weapons or having frigs in your gang.

Do you not remember the original vagabond, it had a 5% velocity bonus as one of its traits. They cooked that into the base ship stats after the buff and added shield boost bonus so that it was actually unique and could tank half-way decently. If that doesn't tell you the implied role CCP had for it, then i give up. You can continue living in your own little world.

EDIT: I would consider dropping shield boost bonus, if the vaga got an additional mid. And instead, giving another 10% fall-off bonus. Speed would remain the same though.


you talk about the other T1 versions being the same role as their T2 HAC counterpart ...
zealot - omen .. omen is much quicker
caracal - cerberus .. caracal is faster
thorax - deimos .. thorax is quicker
stabber - vaga .. vaga is slightly quicker

and so on and so on .. point being only the vaga is quicker than its T1 attack counterpart..
so in exchange for say 25m/s so it would still be 270m/s base speed still very quick ...give it more shield HP and perhaps trade a high for midslot

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1543 - 2014-08-15 13:28:46 UTC
Quote:
you talk about the other T1 versions being the same role as their T2 HAC counterpart ...
zealot - omen .. omen is much quicker
caracal - cerberus .. caracal is faster
thorax - deimos .. thorax is quicker
stabber - vaga .. vaga is slightly quicker

and so on and so on .. point being only the vaga is quicker than its T1 attack counterpart..
so in exchange for say 25m/s so it would still be 270m/s base speed still very quick ...give it more shield HP and perhaps trade a high for midslot


You do realize theres more to roles than speed right. zeal shines in fleet doctrines due to excellent projection and good tank. Deimos is slower because its one of the best brawlers.. if it got faster, it would be hard for people keep it from landing tackle. You seem to be tunnel visioned on speed and fail to see that each ship is specialized for a specific role.

Vaga - speed/kite
deimos - brawler
cerb - anti frig/support
zealot - anti-support, great projection/application

All other ships are tankier than vagabond, but slower. That to me seems like a logical way to balance ships. caldari have always had a bigger shield pool. Minmatar have always been faster. Do you not even know the lore?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1544 - 2014-08-15 13:37:27 UTC
Harvey James wrote:


specialised at being resilient .. we asked for a clear role Rise gave us resilience and buffed sensor strength and cap on all HAC's ...



Bullshit. No one ever asked for the vaga to b a brawler. READ vagabond descriptionh.. THE FASTEST CRUISER EVER BUILT!!!

You need anythign more clear than that?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1545 - 2014-08-15 13:46:08 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


specialised at being resilient .. we asked for a clear role Rise gave us resilience and buffed sensor strength and cap on all HAC's ...



Bullshit. No one ever asked for the vaga to b a brawler. READ vagabond descriptionh.. THE FASTEST CRUISER EVER BUILT!!!

You need anythign more clear than that?


Im beginning to suspect harvey is a troll. No one has complained about vagabond but him. Then ignores the points provided. Either hes trolling or a vagabond destroyed his ship and wants it nerfed because he's bad.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Quantum Cafe
#1546 - 2014-08-15 14:52:50 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Do you even know how important the tracking bonus is on ishtar?
It will still be used yes but this nerf puts it into line with other hacs.



Agreed, it really is all about the tracking and the speed tank. Id rather see this for now, and more later if it needs it. This with the increase in speed of the other AHACs is nice.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#1547 - 2014-08-15 15:27:02 UTC
I think the vaga needs a -1 PG nerf, because as it is, it just fits a storyline 100mn MWD and then makes a heated 12km/s pre-links with snakes in and nothing else fitted. Make it require at least 1 power module for such a thing.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1548 - 2014-08-15 15:31:17 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Quote:
you talk about the other T1 versions being the same role as their T2 HAC counterpart ...
zealot - omen .. omen is much quicker
caracal - cerberus .. caracal is faster
thorax - deimos .. thorax is quicker
stabber - vaga .. vaga is slightly quicker

and so on and so on .. point being only the vaga is quicker than its T1 attack counterpart..
so in exchange for say 25m/s so it would still be 270m/s base speed still very quick ...give it more shield HP and perhaps trade a high for midslot


You do realize theres more to roles than speed right. zeal shines in fleet doctrines due to excellent projection and good tank. Deimos is slower because its one of the best brawlers.. if it got faster, it would be hard for people keep it from landing tackle. You seem to be tunnel visioned on speed and fail to see that each ship is specialized for a specific role.

Vaga - speed/kite
deimos - brawler
cerb - anti frig/support
zealot - anti-support, great projection/application

All other ships are tankier than vagabond, but slower. That to me seems like a logical way to balance ships. caldari have always had a bigger shield pool. Minmatar have always been faster. Do you not even know the lore?


you keep changing your argument when it suits you .. i was responding to your post about speed .. with a speed based post myself ... now your saying its not all about speed but something else...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1549 - 2014-08-15 15:34:24 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


specialised at being resilient .. we asked for a clear role Rise gave us resilience and buffed sensor strength and cap on all HAC's ...



Bullshit. No one ever asked for the vaga to b a brawler. READ vagabond descriptionh.. THE FASTEST CRUISER EVER BUILT!!!

You need anythign more clear than that?


Im beginning to suspect harvey is a troll. No one has complained about vagabond but him. Then ignores the points provided. Either hes trolling or a vagabond destroyed his ship and wants it nerfed because he's bad.


im just asking for consistency across the board.. also its not the fastest ever built anymore .. the cynabal is .. so the description needs updating anyway ... also people do use it as a ASB brawler quite surprisingly .

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#1550 - 2014-08-15 15:39:59 UTC
also who knew the counter to an ishtar gang is a Micro Jump drive BC fleet....there you go. ishtar countered.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#1551 - 2014-08-15 15:44:07 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


specialised at being resilient .. we asked for a clear role Rise gave us resilience and buffed sensor strength and cap on all HAC's ...



Bullshit. No one ever asked for the vaga to b a brawler. READ vagabond descriptionh.. THE FASTEST CRUISER EVER BUILT!!!

You need anythign more clear than that?


Im beginning to suspect harvey is a troll. No one has complained about vagabond but him. Then ignores the points provided. Either hes trolling or a vagabond destroyed his ship and wants it nerfed because he's bad.


im just asking for consistency across the board.. also its not the fastest ever built anymore .. the cynabal is .. so the description needs updating anyway ... also people do use it as a ASB brawler quite surprisingly .

cynabal posts 329m/s with all 5s and no prop. Vaga posts 369m/s. Prop mods affect these two ships very differently because of their different mass. Cynabal, like all faction cruisers, has a very low mass comparatively, being under 10k kg, while a vaga is middle of the road for cruisers at 11,590,000 kg.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1552 - 2014-08-15 16:02:02 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Quote:
you talk about the other T1 versions being the same role as their T2 HAC counterpart ...
zealot - omen .. omen is much quicker
caracal - cerberus .. caracal is faster
thorax - deimos .. thorax is quicker
stabber - vaga .. vaga is slightly quicker

and so on and so on .. point being only the vaga is quicker than its T1 attack counterpart..
so in exchange for say 25m/s so it would still be 270m/s base speed still very quick ...give it more shield HP and perhaps trade a high for midslot


You do realize theres more to roles than speed right. zeal shines in fleet doctrines due to excellent projection and good tank. Deimos is slower because its one of the best brawlers.. if it got faster, it would be hard for people keep it from landing tackle. You seem to be tunnel visioned on speed and fail to see that each ship is specialized for a specific role.

Vaga - speed/kite
deimos - brawler
cerb - anti frig/support
zealot - anti-support, great projection/application

All other ships are tankier than vagabond, but slower. That to me seems like a logical way to balance ships. caldari have always had a bigger shield pool. Minmatar have always been faster. Do you not even know the lore?


you keep changing your argument when it suits you .. i was responding to your post about speed .. with a speed based post myself ... now your saying its not all about speed but something else...


Im not changing anything ive been saying. You just dont seem to grasp the concept of the vagas ROLE is the speed. HAC specialize. The vaga is fast with a moderate tank. While other ships are slower, with more tank. What part do u not get? Ive been saying that from the beginning.

You nerf a kiters speed, it no longer is a kiter, but a brawler. Vagas bonuses are not for brawling.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1553 - 2014-08-15 17:19:19 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Quote:
you talk about the other T1 versions being the same role as their T2 HAC counterpart ...
zealot - omen .. omen is much quicker
caracal - cerberus .. caracal is faster
thorax - deimos .. thorax is quicker
stabber - vaga .. vaga is slightly quicker

and so on and so on .. point being only the vaga is quicker than its T1 attack counterpart..
so in exchange for say 25m/s so it would still be 270m/s base speed still very quick ...give it more shield HP and perhaps trade a high for midslot


You do realize theres more to roles than speed right. zeal shines in fleet doctrines due to excellent projection and good tank. Deimos is slower because its one of the best brawlers.. if it got faster, it would be hard for people keep it from landing tackle. You seem to be tunnel visioned on speed and fail to see that each ship is specialized for a specific role.

Vaga - speed/kite
deimos - brawler
cerb - anti frig/support
zealot - anti-support, great projection/application

All other ships are tankier than vagabond, but slower. That to me seems like a logical way to balance ships. caldari have always had a bigger shield pool. Minmatar have always been faster. Do you not even know the lore?


you keep changing your argument when it suits you .. i was responding to your post about speed .. with a speed based post myself ... now your saying its not all about speed but something else...


Im not changing anything ive been saying. You just dont seem to grasp the concept of the vagas ROLE is the speed. HAC specialize. The vaga is fast with a moderate tank. While other ships are slower, with more tank. What part do u not get? Ive been saying that from the beginning.

You nerf a kiters speed, it no longer is a kiter, but a brawler. Vagas bonuses are not for brawling.


brawling is not inherently slow.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1554 - 2014-08-15 17:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Quote:
you talk about the other T1 versions being the same role as their T2 HAC counterpart ...
zealot - omen .. omen is much quicker
caracal - cerberus .. caracal is faster
thorax - deimos .. thorax is quicker
stabber - vaga .. vaga is slightly quicker

and so on and so on .. point being only the vaga is quicker than its T1 attack counterpart..
so in exchange for say 25m/s so it would still be 270m/s base speed still very quick ...give it more shield HP and perhaps trade a high for midslot


You do realize theres more to roles than speed right. zeal shines in fleet doctrines due to excellent projection and good tank. Deimos is slower because its one of the best brawlers.. if it got faster, it would be hard for people keep it from landing tackle. You seem to be tunnel visioned on speed and fail to see that each ship is specialized for a specific role.

Vaga - speed/kite
deimos - brawler
cerb - anti frig/support
zealot - anti-support, great projection/application

All other ships are tankier than vagabond, but slower. That to me seems like a logical way to balance ships. caldari have always had a bigger shield pool. Minmatar have always been faster. Do you not even know the lore?


you keep changing your argument when it suits you .. i was responding to your post about speed .. with a speed based post myself ... now your saying its not all about speed but something else...


Im not changing anything ive been saying. You just dont seem to grasp the concept of the vagas ROLE is the speed. HAC specialize. The vaga is fast with a moderate tank. While other ships are slower, with more tank. What part do u not get? Ive been saying that from the beginning.

You nerf a kiters speed, it no longer is a kiter, but a brawler. Vagas bonuses are not for brawling.


brawling is not inherently slow.


If the vagabond gets slower, it might as well be a brawler is what i meant. Currently there are 5 or 6 cruisers that are just as fast, if not faster than vagabond. If you slow it down more, its going to be overwhelmed, and open the door to even more ships out pacing it and landing a scram. Once its scrammed, its game over.

Not sure why i keep posting in this thread. Patch notes are up, no other HAC tweaks in store this patch. Devs will probably unsticky soon anyway. Left with still mostly useless muninn.
Sevchenko Valens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1555 - 2014-08-15 19:48:33 UTC
I kind of like the Ishtar. Just sayin'
Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1556 - 2014-08-15 23:10:33 UTC
Just ignore Harvey. If you look up his posting history in these types of threads all he ever argues for are more nerfs to Minmatar ships. He wants them all to be slow bricks with no DPS. He's basically a troll.

Minmatar ships aren't what they once were. With the tieracide initiative lots of other ships have gotten faster, have better damage application, etc. Just look at the once mighty Rifter. It's now outclassed in every way by the other T1 frigs. This goes for many of the Matari T2 hulls as well; Muninn, Huginn, Vagabond, Wolf, Jaguar, etc. These ships all need some love to make them competitive with their contemporaries. Sorry but another few meters per second speed boost isn't going to suddenly make the Muninn a good HAC. Please take another look at its role, slot layout, etc.

Finally, please don't make the Tempest even worse by giving it a weird slot layout.
unslaught
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1557 - 2014-08-16 01:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: unslaught
in the end i'm happy with the balance they made. the munnin seems still pretty useless but since i can't fly it, don't care

the ishtar used to be a crappy vessel, they made it awesome because of players frustration (drones used to suck pretty bad, heavies did like 300dps with max skills). so they changed it to be a monster drone carrier. now it's op... Shocked


my point is: there will always be an "op" ship in each class, if the playstyle changes it becomes another ship and so on, and so on...

good to know that ccp won't rush into huge changes with the "normal" ships (faction should be op and weird).
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#1558 - 2014-08-16 02:05:05 UTC
If you get balance right, there is no OP in any given category. There is only right for that engagement.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1559 - 2014-08-16 03:03:57 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Just ignore Harvey. If you look up his posting history in these types of threads all he ever argues for are more nerfs to Minmatar ships. He wants them all to be slow bricks with no DPS. He's basically a troll.

Minmatar ships aren't what they once were. With the tieracide initiative lots of other ships have gotten faster, have better damage application, etc. Just look at the once mighty Rifter. It's now outclassed in every way by the other T1 frigs. This goes for many of the Matari T2 hulls as well; Muninn, Huginn, Vagabond, Wolf, Jaguar, etc. These ships all need some love to make them competitive with their contemporaries. Sorry but another few meters per second speed boost isn't going to suddenly make the Muninn a good HAC. Please take another look at its role, slot layout, etc.

Finally, please don't make the Tempest even worse by giving it a weird slot layout.


The problem you are describing has little if anything to do with those ships. Their slot layouts and stats are just fine, many of them are powerful on their own.

But autocannons suck.

That's your real problem. And honestly, with the exception of hybrids, every weapon system in the entire game needs a balance pass. Missiles have problems with travel time and application falling off completely, lasers need better ammo variety (some Thermal damage for crying out loud, EM is the worst damage type in the game) and less restrictive cap use and fitting, and autocannons are too heavily penalized for being capless, they don't hit as hard as they should.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

unslaught
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1560 - 2014-08-16 03:22:25 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
If you get balance right, there is no OP in any given category. There is only right for that engagement.



is it possible with such variety to ever get a good balance? the balancing of ships has been going on for many years..