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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1521 - 2014-08-14 23:08:47 UTC
bassy nook wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???





Shocked

Why nerf another minmatar ship? They are known for their speed and agility not their reiliency.


I think the vagabond might have touched him in his no-no spot. Then he fails to understand minmatar lore and how their ships operate.

I don't think i saw that quote before, but cynabal is actually faster than vagabond with MWD on. Base speed, vaga is faster, but MWD on, cynabal is faster. Not sure how that works, maybe its a mass/agility thing? Or EFT bug, idk.

Then he mentions its faster than a stabber.. that gets me every time. In his world, t2 should be worse than t1 i guess.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1522 - 2014-08-14 23:18:15 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
bassy nook wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???





Shocked

Why nerf another minmatar ship? They are known for their speed and agility not their reiliency.


I think the vagabond might have touched him in his no-no spot. Then he fails to understand minmatar lore and how their ships operate.

I don't think i saw that quote before, but cynabal is actually faster than vagabond with MWD on. Base speed, vaga is faster, but MWD on, cynabal is faster. Not sure how that works, maybe its a mass/agility thing? Or EFT bug, idk.

Then he mentions its faster than a stabber.. that gets me every time. In his world, t2 should be worse than t1 i guess.


its not about better or worse .. its about roles .. Vaga is a HAC HAC= resilient .. so tough not speedy ...
Cynabal and stabber are both Attack cruisers.. Attack = speedy not tough

vaga seems too be both roles at the same time...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1523 - 2014-08-14 23:47:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
bassy nook wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???





Shocked

Why nerf another minmatar ship? They are known for their speed and agility not their reiliency.


I think the vagabond might have touched him in his no-no spot. Then he fails to understand minmatar lore and how their ships operate.

I don't think i saw that quote before, but cynabal is actually faster than vagabond with MWD on. Base speed, vaga is faster, but MWD on, cynabal is faster. Not sure how that works, maybe its a mass/agility thing? Or EFT bug, idk.

Then he mentions its faster than a stabber.. that gets me every time. In his world, t2 should be worse than t1 i guess.


its not about better or worse .. its about roles .. Vaga is a HAC HAC= resilient .. so tough not speedy ...
Cynabal and stabber are both Attack cruisers.. Attack = speedy not tough

vaga seems too be both roles at the same time...



The vaga's ROLE is to be fast. Thats where the stabber line was leading up to, the stabber is fast, but weak once caught. The vaga is the same way, except instead of 20k EHP, it gets around 35k EHP due to the resilient nature of HAC's w/ t2 resists. It can't brawl, and has a lame applied dps at point range.

If you look at the t1 lines, they all lead up to a similar counterpart with the t2 line with the same roles, they've just been improved (t2). Please read my earlier post where it outlines all this for you.

If you slow the vaga down, then the stabber would need to be slower (since you're changing their roles), at which point the ships would suck and no one would use them, or even less than they (vaga) are now. Consider this. Which t1 attack cruiser is the fastest? Caracal? no. Omen? no. Thorax? no. Stabber? yes. Which HAC is the fastest? Vagabond! Did you think that maybe, minmatar SPECIALIZE in speed and not tank? Have you ever fought a stabber? They aren't the most tanky of cruisers (relying on 2 tank slots normally for shield tanking). The vagabond is NOT resilient, good pilots just know to use its speed to mitigate damage. If you're stupid and approach someone, the vaga WILL die to just about any brawler.

Also, i don't see any other HAC that expects to tank with 1-2 slots. You're telling me the vaga is too strong with its 1-2 slot tank? Where as a sac has a resist bonus and up to 5 lows for a tank. Maybe you just need to get better and learn to counter it with long range weapons or having frigs in your gang.

Do you not remember the original vagabond, it had a 5% velocity bonus as one of its traits. They cooked that into the base ship stats after the buff and added shield boost bonus so that it was actually unique and could tank half-way decently. If that doesn't tell you the implied role CCP had for it, then i give up. You can continue living in your own little world.

EDIT: I would consider dropping shield boost bonus, if the vaga got an additional mid. And instead, giving another 10% fall-off bonus. Speed would remain the same though.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#1524 - 2014-08-14 23:55:53 UTC
DEV BLOG is out anyway, HACS changes are decided, and (what a surprise) exactly the same as announced on the OP.

CCP Rise never came back to discuss in the thread. Yeah.

What's the point of the last 77 pages?

Maybe I am becoming cynical.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1525 - 2014-08-15 00:58:07 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
DEV BLOG is out anyway, HACS changes are decided, and (what a surprise) exactly the same as announced on the OP.

CCP Rise never came back to discuss in the thread. Yeah.

What's the point of the last 77 pages?

Maybe I am becoming cynical.

He did come back. The Ishtar bonus didn't change, but we got a look at HAC cargo (noticeably zealot) and oddly enough 100mn MWD cap need halved. So yes he did come back and discuss. Did he give you what you wanted? I'm gonna geuss not
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#1526 - 2014-08-15 03:52:32 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Starrakatt wrote:
DEV BLOG is out anyway, HACS changes are decided, and (what a surprise) exactly the same as announced on the OP.

CCP Rise never came back to discuss in the thread. Yeah.

What's the point of the last 77 pages?

Maybe I am becoming cynical.

He did come back. The Ishtar bonus didn't change, but we got a look at HAC cargo (noticeably zealot) and oddly enough 100mn MWD cap need halved. So yes he did come back and discuss. Did he give you what you wanted? I'm gonna geuss not

I guess I missed that post, though I was pretty certain I read the whole thing.

The 100mn MWD is good stuff. I never flew Zealot - I did fly everything else.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1527 - 2014-08-15 05:05:46 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Starrakatt wrote:
DEV BLOG is out anyway, HACS changes are decided, and (what a surprise) exactly the same as announced on the OP.

CCP Rise never came back to discuss in the thread. Yeah.

What's the point of the last 77 pages?

Maybe I am becoming cynical.

He did come back. The Ishtar bonus didn't change, but we got a look at HAC cargo (noticeably zealot) and oddly enough 100mn MWD cap need halved. So yes he did come back and discuss. Did he give you what you wanted? I'm gonna geuss not

I guess I missed that post, though I was pretty certain I read the whole thing.

The 100mn MWD is good stuff. I never flew Zealot - I did fly everything else.

he didn't update OP or make a specific thread for it, so I'll give you that. I'm really curious as to how the MWD change will affect battleships overall. I've wanted to get back into one for a while now.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1528 - 2014-08-15 07:14:00 UTC
People, the problem with the Vagabond is that ACs are bad. The hull itself has insane stats. If you replaced the projectile bonuses on the Vagabond with laser RoF/optimal bonuses and bumped the PG a little so it could fit lasers, it would be more broken than the Ishtar.
Mutly
Silicon Tower
#1529 - 2014-08-15 07:20:01 UTC
That was a close one, they almost had a gallente ship that did what it should. glad they killed that...
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#1530 - 2014-08-15 08:34:50 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
[its not about better or worse .. its about roles .. Vaga is a HAC HAC= resilient .. so tough not speedy ...
Cynabal and stabber are both Attack cruisers.. Attack = speedy not tough

vaga seems too be both roles at the same time...



....and why is this a problem? If you fit it for "Attack" role it's a speedy kiter with good projection damage and a great tank for a kiter (hint: a L-ASB gives you more HP than a LSE II)

When fitted for brawling you get a fast brawler with 600 dps (selectable) and an effective tank of 93k eHP (10 cycles XL-ASB with Invul and ASB overloaded).

My only issue with the Vagabond is that this is all it can do. There are essentially two fits. I think if we moved a low to a mid and buffed the cpu by 10% it would open a couple more options but it wouldn't be super multi role.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1531 - 2014-08-15 09:23:52 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
When fitted for brawling you get a fast brawler with 600 dps (selectable) and an effective tank of 93k eHP (10 cycles XL-ASB with Invul and ASB overloaded).


Whilst you're not wrong, it's worth pointing out that if the DPS spikes enough, you can pop between cycles as you have a very small buffer to soak up a few good hits.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1532 - 2014-08-15 10:07:16 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
bassy nook wrote:
Harvey James wrote:


Vagabond
- please nerf its speed ... resilience is the theme of HACS remember so why is it just as quick as a stabber and cynabal???





Shocked

Why nerf another minmatar ship? They are known for their speed and agility not their reiliency.


I think the vagabond might have touched him in his no-no spot. Then he fails to understand minmatar lore and how their ships operate.

I don't think i saw that quote before, but cynabal is actually faster than vagabond with MWD on. Base speed, vaga is faster, but MWD on, cynabal is faster. Not sure how that works, maybe its a mass/agility thing? Or EFT bug, idk.

Then he mentions its faster than a stabber.. that gets me every time. In his world, t2 should be worse than t1 i guess.


its not about better or worse .. its about roles .. Vaga is a HAC HAC= resilient .. so tough not speedy ...
Cynabal and stabber are both Attack cruisers.. Attack = speedy not tough

vaga seems too be both roles at the same time...


Nope.. HACs theme is not resilience. Hacs theme is SPECIALIZATION. VAga was the fastest no interceptor ship in eve for half of eve life.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1533 - 2014-08-15 10:08:03 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
People, the problem with the Vagabond is that ACs are bad. The hull itself has insane stats. If you replaced the projectile bonuses on the Vagabond with laser RoF/optimal bonuses and bumped the PG a little so it could fit lasers, it would be more broken than the Ishtar.



Pulse laser vgabond would be insane.....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1534 - 2014-08-15 10:30:13 UTC
Btw anyone tha ask for makign any minmatar ship even slower should be banished from talking about eve.

That is the very from of thinking that made the most damage in eve up to day.

If you nerf minmatar speed, we demand that blasters do the same damage as AC, that pulse lasers have same range as AC and that caldari have as low CPU as minmatar vessels.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Minty Aroma
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1535 - 2014-08-15 10:43:32 UTC
Don't change the slot layout (shield tempests should be a thing) but change the role bonuses to one strong dps increase and falloff as well as a small further buff to speed - then finally we'll have a autocannon kity pest, which fits in well with it's attack BS role.
Deriah Book
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1536 - 2014-08-15 11:04:40 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?




Personally, the Tempest is my go-to BS. I would far rather it be 8/6/5 than 8/4/7. And that would be dumb. But that's just me and the way I use it.

As long as the Fleet Issue remains 8/5/7 I'd be happy, as I use that ship more anyway. But if even the TFI goes to 8/4/7 then I will no longer have a use for it and will need to look elsewhere for my go-to BS. (Which is unfortunate because the Tempest does it's job quite well. Plus, it's in that movie and I like flying it because it's somewhat famous.)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1537 - 2014-08-15 11:37:40 UTC
Minty Aroma wrote:
Don't change the slot layout (shield tempests should be a thing) but change the role bonuses to one strong dps increase and falloff as well as a small further buff to speed - then finally we'll have a autocannon kity pest, which fits in well with it's attack BS role.



That is the obvious best solution. But I never dared to suggest it since CCP never follows the logical solutions. And frankly after 8 years trying.. I doubt we can make ccp to treat the tempest fairly on the same level they treated the hyperion.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1538 - 2014-08-15 11:41:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Minty Aroma wrote:
Don't change the slot layout (shield tempests should be a thing) but change the role bonuses to one strong dps increase and falloff as well as a small further buff to speed - then finally we'll have a autocannon kity pest, which fits in well with it's attack BS role.



That is the obvious best solution. But I never dared to suggest it since CCP never follows the logical solutions. And frankly after 8 years trying.. I doubt we can make ccp to treat the tempest fairly on the same level they treated the hyperion.


hyperion got special treatment because active tanking is a joke. I think this is how they do active tanking now - they give the ship better stats to make up for having a useless bonus, so you can ignore it and use it in gangs. though I'm not sure when you'd want a buffer hype over a megathron, they overlap a lot.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1539 - 2014-08-15 11:52:17 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Minty Aroma wrote:
Don't change the slot layout (shield tempests should be a thing) but change the role bonuses to one strong dps increase and falloff as well as a small further buff to speed - then finally we'll have a autocannon kity pest, which fits in well with it's attack BS role.



That is the obvious best solution. But I never dared to suggest it since CCP never follows the logical solutions. And frankly after 8 years trying.. I doubt we can make ccp to treat the tempest fairly on the same level they treated the hyperion.


hyperion got special treatment because active tanking is a joke. I think this is how they do active tanking now - they give the ship better stats to make up for having a useless bonus, so you can ignore it and use it in gangs. though I'm not sure when you'd want a buffer hype over a megathron, they overlap a lot.



needing 2 damage bonuses to still do less damage than almost all its peers seems a joke as well for the tempest. Tempest had an use when battleships warped as fast as cruisers. Now... nothing.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1540 - 2014-08-15 12:20:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Minty Aroma wrote:
Don't change the slot layout (shield tempests should be a thing) but change the role bonuses to one strong dps increase and falloff as well as a small further buff to speed - then finally we'll have a autocannon kity pest, which fits in well with it's attack BS role.



That is the obvious best solution. But I never dared to suggest it since CCP never follows the logical solutions. And frankly after 8 years trying.. I doubt we can make ccp to treat the tempest fairly on the same level they treated the hyperion.


hyperion got special treatment because active tanking is a joke. I think this is how they do active tanking now - they give the ship better stats to make up for having a useless bonus, so you can ignore it and use it in gangs. though I'm not sure when you'd want a buffer hype over a megathron, they overlap a lot.



needing 2 damage bonuses to still do less damage than almost all its peers seems a joke as well for the tempest. Tempest had an use when battleships warped as fast as cruisers. Now... nothing.


that's projectiles for you. more than tempest buffs, you should be pushing for projectile buffs.