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I am lukewarm to this expansion so far, while I believe there is a considerable increase in the amount of information now available through the Industry UI, I can't help but notice the dramatic cost increases to manufacturing in general. I have a number of tools I use to ensure profitability on my manufacturing jobs and I will be updating them with the new figures as time allows the next few weeks, I was able to update my Capital Ships planner with the new mineral amounts and sub component quantity ME changes and here is a snapshot of the difference the new expansion created;

Ship Name ; Old Build Cost ; New Build Cost; Percent Increase
Orca; 533,612,879 ; 661,983,436; 24%
Rorqual; 1,780,273,588; 2,183,531,918; 22.65%
Providence; 1,075,666,294; 1,307,416,024; 21.54%
Obelisk; 1,085,733,421; 1,325,211,943; 22.06%
Fenrir; 1,065,669,173; 1,296,084,758; 21.62%
Charon; 1,122,506,354; 1,358,565,943; 21.03%
Archon; 885,655,293; 1,076,961,774; 21.6%
Thanatos; 979,368,925; 1,204,670,193; 23%
Nidhoggur; 898,530,745; 1,095,488,028; 21.92%
Chimera; 947,998,442; 1,028,054,372; 21.23%
Nyx; 17,810,356,263; 19,778,614,299; 11%

These numbers are using the same mineral costs as a comparison, the only change is the amount needed because of the ME changes to the ship and subcomponent BPO's. Additionally these costs are strictly the mineral changes without adding in the build cost or tax levied in NPC stations where applicable.

industry buff does not feel like a buff to me, i'm looking at a lot of changes that don't look that nice for the players that buy sell or build stuff in this game, but i'm guessing this is probably more wonderful ideas whispered into ccp ear by are goons reps.

Let me guess. You researched your BPOS to ridiculously high levels in spite of the fact that they would never be perfect, and are now complaining that they are now actually perfect.

PERFECT > not perfect. And you still complain.

There are a lot of things I would like to say about this. But they would all get me banned from the forums.

You don't get business, do you? its never about beeing perfect, its about beeing better than others, you can sell BPC's at the same price as others and yours will be bought, you have more flexibility and are able to undercut others a bit more than they can afford, allows you to control markets better than they do.
Also many people planned for years ahead, doing research that would have resulted in a profit in 2-3 years, they were screwed over as well, not only losing that profit, also losing valuable researchtime.
Basically: everyone who actually put some thought into it and planned for the future got ******, yey CCP

I have been, a turnover of billions a month on copied BPCs.


ME (and PE on a minor effect) are to BPC traders what SEO is to search engines.

In both cases one could argue it's "sugar", it's something almost intangible... yet it's not.

Positioning an e-commerce shop in the first Google search results page makes it worth millions, being at page 2-3 it's worth a tiny fraction of that.


Likewise my ME 500 Capital Parts BPCs would sell quicker, better and at sensibly higher price than a ME 100 or 200 (*)

I have hundreds of BPOs: freigthers, carriers, all sort of ships from frigs to BS, supercap parts, POS [anything] BPCs you name it. Only BPOs I did not purchase were supercaps, because it was a mature-ish market that did not interest me.

In order to have ME 500 and up to ME 3000 (very few items even remotely take advantage of that, but there are) it took 5 years of multiple POSes, the related logistics, the consequences of war decs, the many, MANY standings to be grinded.

MANY accounts were paid hard RL cash (no PLEX).


All of this, in the water closet. CCP caused me a RL cash loss. And not for leisure time, they took away 2 months of my (renewing yearly) subs 3 years ago "just because, no explanation given, no ticket answered". And now again with this coup de tête.

And I don't say more about the "new and improved" direction of the game because the ISD deletes my posts as is.

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(*) For the thick skulls: ME and PE to me matter ZERO. What matters as trader and industrialist is:

- turnover
- volume
- profit.

Regardless of ME and PE actual effects, what matters is the competitive advantage, the tangible ISK that gets earned for having invested into research. Exactly like in RL, succesful corporations are those that invest long term in research and it usually pays off.

So, it's just DUMB to say "it was a bad decision" or blah blah:

1) It brought in great competitive advantage and money so it was not dumb at all.
2) Nothing gave a "warning" that such a foundation of the game economy would be suddenly scrapped.
3) A point ALWAYS missed by the "bad decision" proponents, is that they talk like Mr. John Smith new industrialist enters a new game where all start from zero. NOPE. Mr. John Smith wants to sell a Capital Turret? He won't sell ANYTHING AT ALL until he's competitive enough. "Enough" means that a BPO can require 2 years of research before its BPC become appetible at all, so the "wasted years" were a NECESSITY.
"Lol just buy it already researched". Sure, and except rare cases you buy at a premium that almost partly takes into account exactly the years spent to get to its compeititve ME / PE. Yes, there are some "firesale" opportunities and I have maybe 50 billions worth of "firesale" BPOs. Too bad the remaining hundreds of billions worth of BPOs were never sold and I had to pay myself time and money to get them up.

Actually, my income has gone up year after year, and my on-line time has gone down year after year. I just log in my indy alt to move a few things around at a POS and then switch accts to go pvp. Hauling supplies? pft. That's what courier contracts are for.

I distinctly remember someone suggesting this in S&I forum. I still think its hilariously OP and will never see the light of day. But it would be fun to play with on SiSi.

So I did my first jobs from the corp hangar today significantly more clicking and more involved. I used to be able to right click on a BP in a corp hangar and select manufacture then I was immediately in the UI to select number of runs. Now I have to get into the new UI and then select what I want to do and then the tabs do not default to the tab the BP is in so you have to manually set that up every single time. One off it's no big deal but when you are running 3 toons worth of jobs for cap ship production I'm sure it will get very annoying.

Also you ****** us on the "if it's perfect now it will be perfect after the changes" bullshit. Cap ship BPOs go ****** over after you swore up and down that they would not. I would have gotten my BPOs all up to 10 had you not promised us this would not happen. And now the fees to research them are so high you'll never get the isk back. Someone in my corp looked into it and told me 1.1 Billion to finish researching one of our cap ship BPOs to 10 ME given current prices in low sec.

Once again I have one word for this content release: Terribad

You guys are either incompetent and don't know what you are doing or intentionally ******* over your paying customers. I'm not sure which I like less but I know neither of them bodes well for your reputation.

The chart that they show in this blog post shows 1 ME being 5% and 5,6,7,8 and 9 ME all being 9%. So your 5 ME gets you within 1% of perfect. I think more to the point since most manufacture jobs prior to this expansion only made single digit margins that means your 5% bonus in null sec makes manufacturing anywhere else pretty much a loss or break even at best.

One thing to keep in mind since we are having to constantly move everything all over the universe constantly chasing lower set up costs the only price that really matters is hub pricing at least for manufacturing because if you can make isk selling out away from the hub that is a trade profit not a manufacturing profit after all a toon with no manufacturing skills could buy the item at the hub and move it to the high profit area and make the same isk as the guy who built it for break even pricing at the hub and moved it.

I think its quite stupid what you've done with invention, now that you get a invention run per run of BPC my (prepatch small) stock of 100 t1 BPCs is enough to do invention for 44 years constantly in 10 slots.

Lets hope you come up with some really awesome new stuff for the invention overhaul.