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Dev blog: EVE Industry - All you want to know

First post First post First post
Author
Astro Andy
Semper-Tyrannis
Shoot First.
#281 - 2014-07-21 21:23:23 UTC
Pristine White Glaze doesn't look right in the patch notes...

1 unit of White Glaze now yields 69 Heavy Water, 35 Liquid Ozone, 414 Nitrogen Isotopes and 1 Strontium Clathrates
1 unit of Pristine White Glaze now yields 69 Heavy Water, 35 Liquid Ozone, 483 Nitrogen Isotopes and 1 Strontium Clathrates


Compared with all the others that look like:

1 unit of Blue Ice now yields 69 Heavy Water, 35 Liquid Ozone, 414 Oxygen Isotopes and 1 Strontium Clathrates
1 unit of Thick Blue Ice now yields 104 Heavy Water, 55 Liquid Ozone, 483 Oxygen Isotopes and 1 Strontium Clathrates


Might want to add the word "Gleaming" to one of the types of Spodumain as well...
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#282 - 2014-07-21 21:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: GreasyCarl Semah
Pheusia wrote:
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Pheusia wrote:
El Zylcho wrote:
Pheusia wrote:

But hi-sec privilige ends tomorrow afternoon.


So again, my point is is about building consensus. No case other than your hypothetical one has been made or advanced that a disadvantage exists in numbers. High sec is full of risk, just ask any miner. Why are there no industrial alliances left? There used to be - game changes make high sec a misnomer like "jumbo shrimp".

What was offered up was a discussion about a distribution of population on the China server and a passing remark about a dev wanting industry to be less profitable and another comment about forcing people who favor solo play styles to cooperate. It is *absolutely* the prerogative for the business to make whatever business decisions it wants to make. But this in no way demonstrates a desire to keep a company profitable nor does it prudently pose a question such as "How do we create more opportunities in high sec to distribute player populations, encourage cooperative play styles or match risk to profit"?

Your example is largely irrelevant to the points I was making because I was talking about using a measure, an actual measure to evaluate a feedback and consensus building so developers are not stuck in political discussions AFTER the fact. Yes, CCP has survived the implementation of rule changes in the game. My point is, it can do it better, meaning more profitably. It is in its interest to factor in consensus building understanding various studies that have been done on this very topic.

I did not argue for absolutely no loss of subscriptions but a way to measure it AND even more important to demonstrate to any disinterested third party (say hypothetical investors) that measurable value is delivered by developers who follow a logic based on the principle of being profitable.

Your oversimplification lends weight to my observation that CSMs nor even developers alone can navigate the complexity that Eve is. Soft power in the form of consensus gives development efforts a clear way to ring the bell.


The subject has been discussed for literally years. All the 'consensus' that was going to be developed has been, because priviliged people never relinquish that privilige without a struggle, or at least without a lot of complaining and whining.

I personally weighed a pound of facts against a million tons of hi-sec "consensus" and the facts were what tilted the scale for me: the siutation was gigantically imbalanced. That's being corrected.


I do so love the troll posts. I wonder who will be trolling in October when the null sec PVP gods realize that the cost of tech 2 ships is up 20% in comparison to where they are today?


eh, we've survived larger shifts


Not without a rain of sweet tears from heaven you haven't, which is the part I rather enjoy. Make sure to rat for three more hours so you can fill my carebear wallet. I already have the ships made, sitting here and waiting for you to slave away at higher prices. Now get to work.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#283 - 2014-07-21 22:12:14 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

My ME3 Thanatos and Archon BPO's will be upgraded from ME3 to ME4, which will STILL translate to an 8% waste BPO (same transformation for ME3 and Me4), and my Moros will be upgraded from ME6 to ME7 under the existing system, which I believes translates to the same crappy BPO under the new system.

nope

while in research, the ME3 will transform into ME8%, then you will get the one additional level you were researching: me9%
while in research, the ME6 will transform into ME9%, then you will get the one additional level you were researching: me10%

i, too, assumed the transfer would happen the way you assumed it would (that the end product transforms once its done), but greyscale's earlier posts (which one would think you read religiously) make it clear the transformation happens as I said above, probably because it's easier from a technical standpoint. once i found that out i had to cancel some research jobs and reinstall because they were suboptimal (i had figured there was no point researching ME on my me5 nag bpos, so i might as well get some TE: now, i'm a few months behind schedule for my glorious ME10% nag bpos)

so you'll get the perfect moros bpo you always dreamed of and none of us dirty nullsec cartels will have a better bpo than you do dinsy


Citation please re: transformation as you described it.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2014-07-21 22:17:48 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Citation please re: transformation as you described it.

it is this very thread you are posting in:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

We take whatever level the blueprint was at when the job started, convert that, and then when the job finishes add however many levels (capped at level 10) it was in research for.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4816392#post4816392

he notes the math error in that post and posts to correct and confirm that ME5 in research to ME6 when patch hits goes to ME10%:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

Oh, yeah, sorry. ME10. I picked from the available options, didn't check the math on the second one Oops


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4817233#post4817233
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#285 - 2014-07-21 23:22:43 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Citation please re: transformation as you described it.

it is this very thread you are posting in:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

We take whatever level the blueprint was at when the job started, convert that, and then when the job finishes add however many levels (capped at level 10) it was in research for.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4816392#post4816392

he notes the math error in that post and posts to correct and confirm that ME5 in research to ME6 when patch hits goes to ME10%:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

Oh, yeah, sorry. ME10. I picked from the available options, didn't check the math on the second one Oops


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4817233#post4817233


Cool, I missed that.

That one gift to all players still does not alter the fact that this overhaul is an unmitigated disaster for high sec players, low sec cap manufacturers, with yet another massive wealth transfer to the null sec cartels, who architected this whole thing in the first place.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2014-07-22 00:28:18 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Cool, I missed that.

That one gift to all players still does not alter the fact that this overhaul is an unmitigated disaster for high sec players, low sec cap manufacturers, with yet another massive wealth transfer to the null sec cartels, who architected this whole thing in the first place.

do you think that if you could post repeatedly in this thread and miss the three greyscale posts about that change (one over a foot long, hard to miss), perhaps you aren't giving it as much thought as it deserves
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#287 - 2014-07-22 02:01:58 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Cool, I missed that.

That one gift to all players still does not alter the fact that this overhaul is an unmitigated disaster for high sec players, low sec cap manufacturers, with yet another massive wealth transfer to the null sec cartels, who architected this whole thing in the first place.

do you think that if you could post repeatedly in this thread and miss the three greyscale posts about that change (one over a foot long, hard to miss), perhaps you aren't giving it as much thought as it deserves


Um...no.

I have spent a great deal of time on Singularity in the past weeks, when it was up.
I read Greyscale's manifesto of hatred of high sec that he posted years ago, and was resurrected on one of the blogger's posts. (Think it was Noizy Gamer)

So yeah, I have given this a lot more thought than the typical null sec propagandist, though I agree no where near the thought given by the null sec cartel industrialists who benefit so hugely from this, and no doubt all ready have incredibly extensive and detailed plans ready to implement as soon as the Crius release is stable.
Laughable Xhosa Girl
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#288 - 2014-07-22 03:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Laughable Xhosa Girl
on the EVE of this long awaited industry revamp I'd just like to thank all the posters that helped make this happen

YES WE CAN!

---

i also want to pour one out for the posters who didn't make it all the way. rip weaslior
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#289 - 2014-07-22 03:25:50 UTC
Laughable Xhosa Girl wrote:
on the EVE of this long awaited industry revamp I'd just like to thank all the posters that helped make this happen

YES WE CAN!

---

i also want to pour one out for the posters who didn't make it all the way. rip weaslior

same
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#290 - 2014-07-22 06:28:35 UTC
What happened to Weaslior?
Pearl Canopus
#291 - 2014-07-22 08:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pearl Canopus
aaahm... and what's about corp standing related productions taxes at NPC stations...?

Thanks for your wall of text without any progress in the topic. But I'd really like to know. Blink

Lady Edit says: Somebody will like the changes others not. That's the way of life always. I will try out and give it a chance. Most I like it becomes less complex and much less clicky. Cool
Scarlet Bear
Anger of the Darkness
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
#292 - 2014-07-22 08:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Scarlet Bear
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Citation please re: transformation as you described it.

it is this very thread you are posting in:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

We take whatever level the blueprint was at when the job started, convert that, and then when the job finishes add however many levels (capped at level 10) it was in research for.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4816392#post4816392

he notes the math error in that post and posts to correct and confirm that ME5 in research to ME6 when patch hits goes to ME10%:

CCP Greyscale wrote:

Oh, yeah, sorry. ME10. I picked from the available options, didn't check the math on the second one Oops


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4817233#post4817233


Cool, I missed that.

That one gift to all players still does not alter the fact that this overhaul is an unmitigated disaster for high sec players, low sec cap manufacturers, with yet another massive wealth transfer to the null sec cartels, who architected this whole thing in the first place.


noticed even the dev say very little in the comments,
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#293 - 2014-07-22 13:09:38 UTC
You guys said one thing early on with the ME and TE and did another. That's shady. Originally you said ME and TE were going to scale evenly i.e. ME was going to be 2% per level and now I see ME 1 being 5% and 6,7,8 and 9 being no improvement what so ever. Shady I tell you shady.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Wilfrid DelUnzano
Enedwaith Org.
#294 - 2014-07-22 13:38:43 UTC
One thing interesting is that (i may have missed it trhrough the thread) changing old to new BPO will not have lost side effect too much.

What about all the Fuel spent to make research, Me and PE?
I've spent more than 2 year in cumulated researches. And now, to have the same level of ME/PE for same number f BPO it wxil just need less than a year, or at most a year?
All time toget enough skills to do it? POS investments, datacore investment, etc..

The change is on, ok. But don't say it won't have a high cost for players that spent time, isk and skills to do it.
ANd for a result that is not really known as there will be high hifts of pricin for materials, BPO, BPC and so on.

All to lower the level from the bottom as it seems to me
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2014-07-22 13:53:47 UTC
I just wanted to say something here. Most production jobs up until now only made single digit profit margins. So very small changes of even 1% say to the cost of production would be 15-20% of one's profits. That being said it baffles me how you guys are throwing around double digit changes here like there nothing.

I also wanted to note that you are trying to force industrial players which in my opinion are most likely the highest concentration of PvP averse players into null instead of enticing them into null which just seems like a poor decision and to have a complete lack of respect for different play styles.

I've read blogs from gaming industry insiders that have talked on the different player types and how all of them are needed to make an MMO work. iirc there were 5 different base player types. When you try and force one play style that just seems to show an ignorance to that position.

There's a word that I've thrown around here and on other forums for other games most of which are dying that in my opinion to a smart game developer should be an offensive swear word worse than any other. That word is "homogenization". In past expansions you've gotten rid of any difference the various races and bloodline have had between each other then removed all but minor superficial functional difference between the race's ships to the point where now you can just pick which ever races ships you think are prettier because functionally there's not much difference. Now you are trying to homogenize play style so everyone in game will need to run out to null and get involved in sov warfare or GTFO of the game.

I just want to go on record as saying I believe this in general to be poorly thought out and I feel not good for the game at least not for my play style and we'll see or I should say you'll see how it affects subs since you don't publish those numbers anymore. I think it will take probably about a year for things to shake out and for us to really see the effects of this expac but in the future I guess history will tell us.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#296 - 2014-07-22 14:00:46 UTC
The Cirus feedback thread is at the top of the page
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360021

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#297 - 2014-07-22 15:00:40 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
You guys said one thing early on with the ME and TE and did another. That's shady. Originally you said ME and TE were going to scale evenly i.e. ME was going to be 2% per level and now I see ME 1 being 5% and 6,7,8 and 9 being no improvement what so ever. Shady I tell you shady.


Under the new system ME does scale evenly.
Time does not scale evenly.

Under the old system ME did not scale evenly.
Time did scale evenly.

So this change was just converting one for the other.

me:+9 will have 9x the savings as me:+1 (you need items that use a lot of small materials to see this, like say battleships).
Each "Level" of me is a "Saving" of 0.01*base, up to a maxium of 10% savings

TE is 2% per level.
CCP were stuck on the conversions and they had to pick the best way to do it. Some people made out like bandits, some got stung hard, and some ended up with nearly the same thing.

It must be said however, that those that got stung hard in the conversion would have had low research, and under this new system they can still bump it up at minimal cost.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#298 - 2014-07-22 15:08:27 UTC
I finally got to look at the new UI and new BPs and I don't like it at all. Everything was so easy to read and understand before there were numbers and you could look up what they meant and understand things now there's slide bars and pictures and other useless crap that just looks pretty. Math is math to have an industrial UI with numbers in columns and rows that have labels. You start putting pictures in there and you're making a left brain activity easier for right brainers but harder for left brainers. Why not just make industry good for industrialists and leave the pretty picture for deviant art.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Nalha Saldana
The Vomit Comets
#299 - 2014-07-22 15:09:03 UTC
How about showing the actual price modifier for manufacturing and other jobs in the Facilities tab and let us sort by that, clicking through them all just to find the actual production price is annoying and unnecessary.

Right now systems with same system price index have very different prices and i though you wanted to remove unnecessary, painful clicking.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#300 - 2014-07-22 15:14:06 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:


Under the new system ME does scale evenly.
Time does not scale evenly.

Under the old system ME did not scale evenly.
Time did scale evenly.

So this change was just converting one for the other.

me:+9 will have 9x the savings as me:+1 (you need items that use a lot of small materials to see this, like say battleships).
Each "Level" of me is a "Saving" of 0.01*base, up to a maxium of 10% savings

TE is 2% per level.
CCP were stuck on the conversions and they had to pick the best way to do it. Some people made out like bandits, some got stung hard, and some ended up with nearly the same thing.

It must be said however, that those that got stung hard in the conversion would have had low research, and under this new system they can still bump it up at minimal cost.


Did you see the chart in this blog? Because it shows the opposite of what you are saying here. It shows ME 1 being 5% and ME 5,6,7,8,and 9 all being 9%. The original blog stated ME 1 would be 1% and ME 2 being 2% etc... with it winding up at ME 10 being 10%. That is even scaling. Not sure what you are looking at.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli