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Dev blog: EVE Industry - All you want to know

First post First post First post
Author
Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#361 - 2014-07-23 22:20:35 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
sell the compressed ice or ore and buy minerals/topes with the proceeds


Well yes.. my point was that IF you refine it is still possible to get almost identical outputs as before. You are correct though the sale of compressed ores will soon outstrip refined.
Kemptiss
Perkone
Caldari State
#362 - 2014-07-23 23:21:32 UTC
Go team ccp layoffs. Do you guys actually think things through, or just play with each other. Why do you assume that this release was like OMG indy, and trust me I was like increase of mins f-n awesome. That I failed to read between the lines. POS manufacturing is pretty much in the toilet. If you factor in costs associated with building the ships with the fuel costs of your total profits. Yeah, might as well toss that. I found it easier to research BPO's before crius. WTH more clicking. Industrialists tend to be solo to just a few peeps, not a corporation. So why should I pay through a corp wallet division to build. You guys just over complicated things. And most likely you won't admit it and some peeps will be like, "Over this". CSM nice looking out, you guys are just as a waste as the dev's who push crap updates on us. OMG on the taxes on everything, I have something on this, maybe you got some RMT's who are funneling my iskies to farmers.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#363 - 2014-07-23 23:24:46 UTC
Kemptiss wrote:
Go team ccp layoffs. Do you guys actually think things through, or just play with each other. Why do you assume that this release was like OMG indy, and trust me I was like increase of mins f-n awesome. That I failed to read between the lines. POS manufacturing is pretty much in the toilet. If you factor in costs associated with building the ships with the fuel costs of your total profits. Yeah, might as well toss that. I found it easier to research BPO's before crius. WTH more clicking. Industrialists tend to be solo to just a few peeps, not a corporation. So why should I pay through a corp wallet division to build. You guys just over complicated things. And most likely you won't admit it and some peeps will be like, "Over this". CSM nice looking out, you guys are just as a waste as the dev's who push crap updates on us. OMG on the taxes on everything, I have something on this, maybe you got some RMT's who are funneling my iskies to farmers.

i think someone forgot to post on their npc corp alt
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#364 - 2014-07-23 23:26:37 UTC
also confirming that npc taxes go directly to rmt instead of being eliminated from the game
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#365 - 2014-07-23 23:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Hirogenale wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
the complaint is basically that ccp fixed a case of the game giving poor and misleading information
Then please make CCP also remove: margin trading, officer mods, min. buy amounts, Contracts that sell and demand the same Item, direct trading....

The things i meantioned above and many more are used in misleading ways a lot more often, so they should all be removed, correct?

there's no problem with information regarding officer mods, contracts or trading. it doesn't matter if something is used to mislead, it matters if the game itself offers poor information.

margin trading scams are based on a player's poor understanding of the market, which is not intuitive, and definitely does need to be explained better in-client. of course, once the information is made reasonably accessible (the evelopedia is not reasonably accessible imo), there's no reason to remove margin trading scams or margin trading
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#366 - 2014-07-23 23:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: DeODokktor
Benny Ohu wrote:
Hirogenale wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
the complaint is basically that ccp fixed a case of the game giving poor and misleading information
Then please make CCP also remove: margin trading, officer mods, min. buy amounts, Contracts that sell and demand the same Item, direct trading....

The things i meantioned above and many more are used in misleading ways a lot more often, so they should all be removed, correct?

there's no problem with information regarding officer mods, contracts or trading. it doesn't matter if something is used to mislead, it matters if the game itself offers poor information.

margin trading scams are based on a player's poor understanding of the market, which is not intuitive, and definitely does need to be explained better in-client. of course, once the information is made reasonably accessible (the evelopedia is not reasonably accessible imo), there's no reason to remove margin trading scams or margin trading


The margin trading scams are down to
1) player naivety.
2) broken mechanics.
3) market "bug" that allows players to have 0 isk held in Buy orders.

1) can be fixed by players making mistakes.
2) players should be penalized for "Failed" buy orders, perhaps a 5% penalty of the "Total" order, there's no penalty mechanism in the game for putting up non-fillable orders. As a side note, this feature WAS in the game once, and they removed it.
3) A buy order that shows 1 billion isk for an item SHOULD have at least 240 mil in escrow in it, meaning if the scammer uses a 200 mil item and a 1bil fake order, you could make 40 mil. Sadly that's not possible, because you could have a 1bn isk buy order, with a 0.00 isk amount in escrow. This is a "Bug" and not how escrow systems work. CCP isnt going to code a fix for this any time soon either, they are "happy" with this bug as it doesnt impact players...

3) Also means that a scammer (with say 500 mil in wallet) could set up 30 or 40 bil worth of buyorders (with 0 isk held in escrow).... thus, scammers are able to use this to make a ton of orders and boost their chances of getting a mark.

If 2) and 3) were fixed, 1) wouldnt matter as much, as players shouldnt need to be aware of **** poor mechanics and accepted bugs.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#367 - 2014-07-23 23:55:25 UTC
CCP has actually said they don't like the margin trading scam being possible, they just don't have good ideas to fix it.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#368 - 2014-07-23 23:58:14 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP has actually said they don't like the margin trading scam being possible, they just don't have good ideas to fix it.


5% penalty on failed orders.
Removing 0 isk escrows.

Who needs good ideas, when the basic ideas are great.
Red Bluesteel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#369 - 2014-07-24 00:13:04 UTC
Pap Uhotih wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
ViciousCycle wrote:
Quote:
And besides, what was "lost" was time to research something to a theoretical benefit (under the old system) which now has been converted into something that has actual benefit (and the top end benefit at that). I imagine for most if not all players, that so called "lost" time was not mutually exclusive to any other action thus nothing of any value was actually lost. Yet

RAGE



False. I bought two added accounts with RL euros for over two years to build my BPO portfolio. That's RL F'ing money and most of it is LOST.

Compensation? They aren't offering any at all.


You are terrible at math.

The minimal ME benefits from that massive research batch will probably take hundreds of years of manufacturing to be worth more ISK than what you would have gained by just selling PLEXes that you could have bought with that same RL money.

People like you are the reason why CCP is switching to 10-tier ME research scale.


The value and desirability of BPO's that are traded is based on the ME level. BPO's are an asset as much as any other in game item is an asset, that they can be used to make things is irrelevant to that in the same way that the value of the big red button is not linked to its functionality. BPO's have an attribute that players can alter, altering that value increased the isk value, if you could increase a number in the stats of any other item doing so would inevitably increase its value - the logical sense of it is irrelevant since humans do not value things based on logical criterea.

If CCP does something that significantly alters the value of players assets then there should be a bit of a fuss made as it is contrary to the basis of the Eve economy over all. Since industrialists tend to hang on to BPO's for long periods of time they probably do not realise what the isk value of their collections is nor how that will alter (and not by a small amount) due to the patch. Just because people dont trade in something every day does not make its value irrelevant.

Your Right.
Red Bluesteel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#370 - 2014-07-24 00:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Bluesteel
Theo Sotken wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Frankly I don't really have much sympathy for people with ME 1000 blueprints. If researching them to that level was useful, then you've already benefited from doing it and don't deserve additional freebies. And if it wasn't worth researching them, then you shouldn't be compensated for making bad decisions.


As opposed to those players who can at this moment research a BPO to lvl 10 and save a years worth of research. What's your thought on CCP gifting that free research time?

'Additional freebies'? It is a nerf to everyone holding decently researched BPOs. The only people (including myself) to benefit from the changes are those who are getting something for nothing. Although I guess the real losers are the new players who will have to 'pay' to get their BPO's researched.

PS The conversion of the blueprints is a easy fix by CCP and has very little to do with trying to fairly convert the blueprints. Free cake anyone?


Your right too.
CCP has Ripped us of a Massive spend in Wasted Time. This Time we had spend in other things, like make Copys, Use the BPOs to Build and other similar things, and there fore we have an Income loss.

And no im not such a Person who had BPOs mit ME > 100. This is an Real Time Wastage.


And just as an Note:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
THINGS WE AREN'T DOING

After *considerable* discussion, both internally and on the forums, we have decided that we are not going to award any additional compensation for blueprints currently researched past ME/PE 10. There are a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.


You are WRONG CCP, there is a Massive Functional Value lost >> Time


Other Qustion to CCP:

do i get this right that an Research for an Capital BPO to Reach ME10 Post Patch we had only to spend 1,8-2 years to get ME10 (for each ME Level that was 66-70Days at POS) and Past Patch, let me do the Math (simplified ME9 > ME10):

Level 10 = 256.000 Sec = 71,11* Hours
JumpFrighter is a Rank 4000 Item
CCP Greyscale wrote:
T1 ammo is rank 1; jump freighters are rank 4000


So did that mean 71,11*h x 4000 = 284.444,44*h = 11.851 Day = 32,47 Years to reach ME 10...???

WOOW, Lucky ppl who Researched that Post Patch...

Your kidding CCP ?
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#371 - 2014-07-24 00:47:41 UTC
Red Bluesteel wrote:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
T1 ammo is rank 1; jump freighters are rank 4000


So did that mean 71,11*h x 4000 = 284.444,44*h = 11.851 Day = 32,47 Years to reach ME 10...???

WOOW, Lucky ppl who Researched that Post Patch...

Your kidding CCP ?

i hold in my hand a complete list of everyone who has ever trained a jump freighter bpo even a single level

you may notice that there's no paper in my hand but I assure you that I have that list
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#372 - 2014-07-24 01:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Promiscuous Female wrote:
in related news, people whose livelihood relied on misinformed customers mistaking unnecessarily well-researched blueprint copies for actually being meaningfully more effective got pooped on and people are confused as to why that would possibly be

bpo plumage is not seo, it was a scam and now it's dead


It's so goonish of yours to keep propping your propaganda to shut off any dissent with some made up catch-phrases. But nobody of relevance or independent intelligence cares about that. You are dealing with people who have made fortunes by not dressing your tinted glasses.

I would introduce you to the laws of capitalistic economy - you know, the ones EvE is meant to be heavily based on.

By those laws, industry DO perform research for a reason and their customers don't need ideology tossed down in their throats to freely choose if they want the best solution. All they need is a cheap calculator (or one of dozens EvE industry apps).

Moreover if my BPO costed me a lot to improve it's MY business not yours to judge. And I take PRIDE in a game that lets ME choose my path and not some plastic smelling guided theme park.
Those who purchase my BPO, get the best possible product on the market in that day. It costs 300k more than competition and after subtracting that cost, it still yields the customer a saving per produced piece of 100k. THEY are smart at choosing me and you can go claim scam somewhere else.

Besides that - and on unrelated-ish matter as the benefits of best reserarched BPOs are measurable - but just to play your "game": I take it, all those who sell expensive perfumery and other stuff are all scammers and those who buy top perfumes are poor dumbs. We should all go around smelling raw or using cheapest perfumes due to using plastic bottling and no luxury wrapping. ¡Viva la Revolución!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#373 - 2014-07-24 01:04:48 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

ME (and PE on a minor effect) are to BPC traders what SEO is to search engines.


a scam that will get your site blackholed by google when they find you've been deceiving their users by abusing their algorithm with tricks that gave you more attention than your content deserved?

what a good analogy, im glad we're on the same side of this issue


Have you EVER worked on SEO? Does not seem so.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#374 - 2014-07-24 02:00:31 UTC
Doug Dannger wrote:


This attempt to create Hello Kitty Noob Twitch Space Adventure Super Fun Time Online is not only going to alienate a lot of older players, but raise the barrier of entry to newer players as they will suddenly find themselves devoid of the knowledge that was meticulously crafted by devoted players over the last decade. They are also going to be forced to disperse themselves around the galaxy just to get a decent manufacturing price, and then forced to move on once again when the price gets high. A new player will gravitate to a hub to build if simply for the fact they can’t afford a freighter. I hate to draw real life analogy, but Ford isn’t forced to move their plant every month to remain competitive, they’re forced to ship their product to where it can be sold, as industry should be.

I can understand attempting to justify one's job with the ever present threat of constant layoffs over your head, but I fear that your attempt to seem busy has doomed us all.

And no, you cannot have my stuff.

Lol I like this. I'm jealous I didn't think of "Hello Kitty Noob Twitch Space Adventure Super Fun Time".

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Jonathan Yatolila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#375 - 2014-07-24 02:19:01 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Hirogenale wrote:
in ~99.99% of the cases high researched BPC's were used to actually give the buyer a benefit over the BPC's with the same price, but less researched. (YES, there was a benefit)

ah yes the 2 pyerite I saved choosing your ME1975 garde I bpc over an ME500 one was totally worth the 2m I paid for it

face it you were selling snake oil



If someone bought such a BPC - he/she should have done the research -- which would take all of 30 seconds to 2 minutes to do - to see that the comparison between those BPCs was basically nil. I am fairly new to industry - have one alt pretty much dedicated to manufacturing and mining to get the mins to do the production. But with every group of BPCs I chose to purchase - was to first look and see if the BPC made sense.

I have yet to research a BPO or make copies of BPs - but I can say this --- I have taken a huge loss on the BPCs I have.

This "improvement" has practically tripled the amount of time it takes to produce - and that only because I have TE at 5 - and the amount of materials to produce has drastically increased - only offset by my having ME at 5. Then take the fact that I had refining maxed out - due to a combination of skills for the various ores, refine and refinery efficiency - AND closing the last little bit to achieve 100% refine and 0% tax by running missions for the NPC corp to achieve a standing in excess of +6.5 -- only to now receive 67% refine -- a loss of 33%.

And this is improvement? How. This mathematician - who has taught math to both adults and high school students - sure doesn't see the benefit.
Jonathan Yatolila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#376 - 2014-07-24 02:25:09 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acks wrote:
Jonathan Yatolila wrote:
and don't even talk about ore reprocessing. I went from 100% refine to 67%. This is really FUBAR!!!!! Someone in CCP really needs to fix - or better yet - undo this garbage.

Oh well, at least I used to focus on active Trade - and that is what i will be going back to -- but just watch CCP screw that up too.




With Max skills, +4% refining implant, and 50% refine station you get exact same perfect refine on ice. You get about 98% of previous on ore. You have to take into account the new ore batch sizes and the fact they increased the total mins in the ore. So yes, while in the UI it says you are getting 69% (or whatever), it is still possible to get the same amount of mins from the same amount of ore as before (or at least REALLY close).

do not refine in a highsec

sell the compressed ice or ore and buy minerals/topes with the proceeds



You Goons would love that right??? More opportunities to gank the guys who are not in the game for PvP
Jonathan Yatolila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#377 - 2014-07-24 02:30:10 UTC
Acks wrote:
Jonathan Yatolila wrote:
and don't even talk about ore reprocessing. I went from 100% refine to 67%. This is really FUBAR!!!!! Someone in CCP really needs to fix - or better yet - undo this garbage.

Oh well, at least I used to focus on active Trade - and that is what i will be going back to -- but just watch CCP screw that up too.




With Max skills, +4% refining implant, and 50% refine station you get exact same perfect refine on ice. You get about 98% of previous on ore. You have to take into account the new ore batch sizes and the fact they increased the total mins in the ore. So yes, while in the UI it says you are getting 69% (or whatever), it is still possible to get the same amount of mins from the same amount of ore as before (or at least REALLY close).


Thanks I will check that out on my alt that does the refine. Worst case scenario is that it will give me better refine than now. Will also have to check to see the ore/mineral refine results and compare them. I do hope you are correct - and if proven correct - I will gladly post a retraction - as it would give a real value then to the implant which prior had no real value. Big smile
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#378 - 2014-07-24 03:55:08 UTC
Doug Dannger wrote:
So even after promising you guys weren't gonna screw over people who researched their blueprints to a high level, you're still gonna screw us?



All my BPOs are pretty much 10% ME and 20% PE or whatever they call it now
So now I can't sell anything for a decent profit anymore because everyone has them at that level
Thanks CCP
Yes, I knew the extra research really didn't matter hardly at all, but the bigger numbers on them sold better on contracts because not everyone else knew that
Jonathan Yatolila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#379 - 2014-07-24 03:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonathan Yatolila
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP has actually said they don't like the margin trading scam being possible, they just don't have good ideas to fix it.


To say that CCP “don't like the margin trading scam being possible, they just don't have good ideas to fix it” is really an insult to the intelligence of the CCP team. Of course, it is a given that most software programmers are not market experts. It is also a given that most gamers are not market experts. But, that stated – there is at least one (and probably more than one) expert in marketing and economics on the CCP team. [Based on the one CCP speaker who spoke at Evefest and was recorded as giving his credentials as an economist.]

There are several ways to address the Margin Trade Scam. Two of them are fairly easy. Two other ways that I will suggest below would require more thought and time in the software code development.

1. Eliminate both the Margin Trade skill and game mechanic. Give SP to each character that has trained the skill equal to the number of SP the skill/level required of the character to train it. The SP could then be invested in other skills by those characters. This would create momentary pain for those who used this skill – both those who used it legitimately and those who used it to scam. But the ability to ever scam again using this game mechanic would be ended.

2. Eliminate 0 ISK escrow and charge a percentage of the total buy order with the percentage being paid to the seller. No exchange of product. This would not eliminate the scam, but would give a minor recompense to the person scammed. Set this percentage within a range of 5 – 10 percent of the order.

3. Flesh out the Margin Trade game mechanic to more closely resemble out-of-game market mechanics (e.g. real-world conditions). Game mechanic would result in the product being held in abeyance until all funds are paid to the seller. At that time, the buyer receives the product. In the meantime as the buyer earns ISK (from whatever source) it is paid directly into the sellers wallet. A set period of time could be established for completion. Since the mechanics are already in place for time delay (PI, manufacturing, contracts) apply the same time mechanics to the Margin Trade. At the end of that period – a period determined by CCP (24 hours, 96 hours, 14 days, etc.) if the Buyer has not completed payment, the seller keeps all ISK from the sale and all of the product.

The advantage in this mechanic is that it enables the seller to know (s)he will not lose on the transaction while also enabling the legitimate usage of the Margin Trade mechanics for those situations were a buyer is suddenly caught without the ISK to cover the buy. At the same time, scammers would be held totally accountable for trying to run a market scam with this mechanic. It would effectively end scams.

This 3rd option, is the one that most closely resembles real-world markets.

4. Eliminate the 0 ISK escrow. If the trade immediately fails due to insufficient funds in the buyer’s wallet, all ISK in the wallet and all ISK in the escrow is paid to the seller in increments that match the per unit price posted in the buy order. The buyer then receives that number of items as the available ISK can purchase. This is a variation of option 2 above, whereby the scammer is now in possession of overpriced merchandise and out the ISK to buy those items at the price set in the buy order. While it would not totally eliminate the scam it would make it far less palatable than a token percentage loss.

Of course I don’t really expect any of these suggestions to be acted upon by CCP as many in the CSM would suffer to one degree or another if they were implemented. By this statement, I do not imply that any of the CSM actively support or participate in such scams but some of them are in corporations/alliances where one or more members do actively participate in such scams.
Daler Industry
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#380 - 2014-07-24 04:00:48 UTC
Is that fine if i'll petition to refund me my SP from Advanced Industry? I dont want 768k of SP just for 5% reduction in Time. I can handle that 5% of time somehow.. Its completely unfair to change the skill value and not giving to us an option, to choose or not to choose.

Please dont tell me, I've used this skill before this patch, and already got a profit. I want to be always in profit, so this is why I've trained it to 5.. for forever.. Not for the time, when devs will change it and it will not work how it supposed to be work.

Please CCP. If its possible, let us know. I will ask for a refund of SP. Take out that Advanced Industry at 5 from my skills.

Thanks,