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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1181 - 2014-07-03 13:09:09 UTC
Conar wrote:
I do agree that the current "punnishment" reduces the number of people who choose this profession or choose to do it to manipulate the supply and demand for freighters.

I personally don't think gankers should be "punished" anymore then what happens currently. They know the risks and rewards of their actions. They see the reward, knowing that there is a 100% chance of ship death and sec status hit. Gankers are smart, they do the math.

But lets be honest, NO Freighter is safe no matter what mods you put on or this backup you speak of. If a group wanted to gank a ship that was doing everything right, there is a 100% chance that it would get blown up. Am I right?

100% of the time, gankers will win. That does not sound balanced to me.
Except that's simply not true.

CONCORD gives a big help to the freighter. 99.9% of the time, it's enough for a freighter to survive in highsec just by paying attention.

In the unlikely event a group of people with significant resources wants to pop your freighter no matter what, CONCORD still helps a lot. If you want to save that freighter no matter what, you need much less people and resources to prevail on the gankers.

If you're alone and AFK, yes you die to a sufficient number of catalysts. And you deserve it! Big smile

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Lady Areola Fappington
#1182 - 2014-07-03 13:32:19 UTC
Conar wrote:

The 'negative impacts' you describe are there for one reason only: to reduce ganks. From their 'natural' frequency of ALWAYS.

:punishment: has absolutely nothing to do with it!

Repeat the experiment with a competent freighter pilot and some backup.
Highsec losses: zero.
Lowsec losses: I predict at least 5, depending on the backup.
That's what the current highsec mechanics do. Still think it's 'nothing'?


I do agree that the current "punnishment" reduces the number of people who choose this profession or choose to do it to manipulate the supply and demand for freighters.

I personally don't think gankers should be "punished" anymore then what happens currently. They know the risks and rewards of their actions. They see the reward, knowing that there is a 100% chance of ship death and sec status hit. Gankers are smart, they do the math.

But lets be honest, NO Freighter is safe no matter what mods you put on or this backup you speak of. If a group wanted to gank a ship that was doing everything right, there is a 100% chance that it would get blown up. Am I right?

100% of the time, gankers will win. That does not sound balanced to me.



It's balanced. You need to think in group terms, not as an individual. If there was a 100% chance of death no matter what to a freighter, then 100% of freighters would be getting ganked all day erry day. Smart freighter pilots know how to play the (massively stacked in their favor) CONCORD odds, and evade ganks.

The best gank evasion doesn't happen at the gate, in hails of bumping and blaster fire. In fact, I'd say if you're in that situation, you're facing your last ditch hail-mary to save yourself with tank and all. It's the WORST way to avoid getting popped.

The best gank evasion is not being where the gankers are. Learn how to avoid and outmaneuver them, THEN you defeat the gank.



In fact, lets do an animal metaphor. Out on the african savannah, what do the antelope do when they see a lion? They run. Sure, antelope hooves and horns can do some damage to a lion. Sure, in a last ditch effort, the antelope will lash out at the lion. Sometimes, they even manage to scare the lion off. That's not how they avoid becoming a meal, though.

Freighters are (really big, fat, and slow) antelopes. The first response when the "lion" ganker appears, should be to evade. If all else fails, THEN you can fall back on the tank, and hope and pray.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#1183 - 2014-07-03 13:48:11 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
There in lays the problem with highsec. You can't shoot back first.


It's grammatically impossible to shoot back first in any type of space.


I'll give you that. I noticed at the time but thought... meh.

What I meant was, if a person is taking a clearly hostile action, you cannot shoot back.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1184 - 2014-07-03 13:50:48 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
There in lays the problem with highsec. You can't shoot back first.


It's grammatically impossible to shoot back first in any type of space.


I'll give you that. I noticed at the time but thought... meh.

What I meant was, if a person is taking a clearly hostile action, you cannot shoot back.
According to CONCORD's definition of hostile action, you actually can!

Or do you want to shoot first? You ganker, you!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1185 - 2014-07-03 13:52:32 UTC
I think of it like this. If we could quantify units of effort, player skill and the value of the assets being used by players, then ideally whichever side was 'spending' more units would win a pvp encounter.

In the case of freighter ganking, the pvp encounter begins when a freighter pilot undocks and intends to fly to another system, where one possible route may have another player on it that may decide to do suicide ganking today.
GM Lelouch
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#1186 - 2014-07-03 14:17:02 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Oh oh...You are going to get into trouble.
It is clearly against posting policies to display discussions with GM's.

Prepare for a forum ban.


I make the rules, I can do that Blink

Best regards, Lead GM Lelouch CCP Customer Support | EVE Online | DUST 514
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1187 - 2014-07-03 14:20:07 UTC
Conar wrote:
But lets be honest, NO Freighter is safe no matter what mods you put on or this backup you speak of. If a group wanted to gank a ship that was doing everything right, there is a 100% chance that it would get blown up. Am I right?
No. Let's be actually honest rather than perpetuate a thoroughly disproven myth.

If a group wanted to gank a ship that was doing everything right, there is a 0% chance that it would get blown up. It comes inherent with “doing everything right” and with the design that there are numerous situations where you simply cannot be targeted or hurt.

If they gankers absolutely, positively want to kill a target, they can increase their chances by throwing more and more firepower at in increasingly obscure and surprising situations, but there is no such thing as a guaranteed kill. Short of having hundreds of people on, 23.5/7, in every system for 5 jumps, there will be gaps, and even that kind of blockade can be overcome fairly trivially. This is not null — there are no bubbles and other mass-AoE weaponry that lets you get your man with a half-miss.

Some times the gankers win, some times they lose, and most of the time they don't even get to compete. The only imbalances are how easy it is for the hauler to shift the whole equation into the latter two categories and how little say the gankers have in the matter.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1188 - 2014-07-03 14:21:42 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Oh oh...You are going to get into trouble.
It is clearly against posting policies to display discussions with GM's.

Prepare for a forum ban.


I make the rules, I can do that Blink


Well I, for one, welcome of Britannian Anime Overlords.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#1189 - 2014-07-03 14:26:30 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Oh oh...You are going to get into trouble.
It is clearly against posting policies to display discussions with GM's.

Prepare for a forum ban.


I make the rules, I can do that Blink

love it

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1190 - 2014-07-03 14:30:57 UTC
Conar wrote:



But lets be honest, NO Freighter is safe no matter what mods you put on or this backup you speak of. If a group wanted to gank a ship that was doing everything right, there is a 100% chance that it would get blown up. Am I right?



Anything will die if you throw enough stuff at it and disregard cost.

But this statement you made points to an awful 'thought trap' that many 'carebears' fall into: "There is no 100% solution, so my solution will be to do nothing at all".

It happens like that in real life. some people think "well, I'm going to die eventually, nothing i do will prevent that, not even staying at home all the time would work because an asteroid could hit my house, so I won't even care at all". People like that tend walk around in public in an oblivious stupor, taking no precautions at all and in supremely ironic fashion get hit by trains and buses that would have been easy to avoid had they been paying even a little attention.

Sure, in game you can probably "get got" by a determined enough ganker group, but for the most part if you fly smart, fit smart and take precautions, you chances of survival and success are greatly enhanced.
Conar
My Wormhole Hurts
#1191 - 2014-07-03 15:09:42 UTC
Where are my chest beater, leet gankers? For the thrill of the kill, ignoring the "Punishment", if you had the resources... you could kill more then 50% of the time? 70%? 80%? I know you guys do the math so you know what it takes.

I am not asking for change, just an honest answer that there is an imbalance. I guess if you ignore the math then everything can be overcome by throwing more "stuff" at it. I guess I answered my own question in that player choice creates the imbalance. Hence, its not broken or imbalanced. Working as intended.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#1192 - 2014-07-03 15:13:57 UTC
GM Lelouch wrote:
I make the rules, I can do that Blink



I cant see any scenario at all where this quote would ever come back to haunt CCP.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1193 - 2014-07-03 15:16:34 UTC
Conar wrote:
I am not asking for change, just an honest answer that there is an imbalance.
Yes, there is an imblance: ganking is far too difficult and rare right now and could use a few buffs. Dialling back the CONCORD response would probably be a good first step.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1194 - 2014-07-03 15:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tippia wrote:
Conar wrote:
I am not asking for change, just an honest answer that there is an imbalance.
Yes, there is an imblance: ganking is far too difficult and rare right now and could use a few buffs. Dialling back the CONCORD response would probably be a good first step.
Tippia, posting the above

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#1195 - 2014-07-03 17:45:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Conar wrote:
I am not asking for change, just an honest answer that there is an imbalance.
Yes, there is an imblance: ganking is far too difficult and rare right now and could use a few buffs. Dialling back the CONCORD response would probably be a good first step.


Far too difficult? Oh come on. I sat, and watch Code the other night literally non stop Gank all night long. You are NEVER going to tell me Ganking is far to difficult, after that display.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1196 - 2014-07-03 17:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Far too difficult? Oh come on. I sat, and watch Code the other night literally non stop Gank all night long. You are NEVER going to tell me Ganking is far to difficult, after that display.

How many others do you see ganking? How much co-ordination goes into the display you saw? How many of the targets were anything other than static objects in space?

If it wasn't difficult, you'd see it lots of it all over the place rather than in exceedingly rare numbers from a very minute community of specialists or against the most trivial of targets.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1197 - 2014-07-03 18:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Yun Kuai
Tippia wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Far too difficult? Oh come on. I sat, and watch Code the other night literally non stop Gank all night long. You are NEVER going to tell me Ganking is far to difficult, after that display.

How many others do you see ganking? How much co-ordination goes into the display you saw? How many of the targets were anything other than static objects in space?

If it wasn't difficult, you'd see it lots of it all over the place rather than in exceedingly rare numbers from a very minute community of specialists.



No no no you are sadly mistaken. It's not that ganking is extremely difficult and takes hours of coordination. It's the fact that it's difficult to find enough asshats in Eve who's sole desire is to **** off players for flying a hauler or mining ship. Every single one of us could undock today and shoot random pods or ships that are afk'ing or even actively flying around with no intention to PvP in high sec but guess what? That's not fun for a large majority of the EvE player base

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malcovas Henderson
THoF
#1198 - 2014-07-03 18:06:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Far too difficult? Oh come on. I sat, and watch Code the other night literally non stop Gank all night long. You are NEVER going to tell me Ganking is far to difficult, after that display.

How many others do you see ganking? How much co-ordination goes into the display you saw? How many of the targets were anything other than static objects in space?

If it wasn't difficult, you'd see it lots of it all over the place rather than in exceedingly rare numbers from a very minute community of specialists.



Why should a Ganker not organize and co-ordinate a strike, when everyone else has to, to survive the gank?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1199 - 2014-07-03 18:13:28 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Why should a Ganker not organize and co-ordinate a strike, when everyone else has to, to survive the gank?

You got that backwards. Why don't the targets organise when the gankers have to (due to how difficult the game has made it for them)? Simple: because there's little reason for them to do so. The fact that gankers organise and targets do not perfectly illustrate the imbalance.

The fact that an organisation such as CODE only really succeeds at any level against paper-thin and unfitted ships also perfectly illustrates the imbalance. So yes. It is far too difficult — neither the level of organisation nor the very narrow target selection should be necessary.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#1200 - 2014-07-03 18:32:55 UTC
Conar wrote:

100% of the time, gankers will win. That does not sound balanced to me.


Not quite accurate. Gankers sometimes lose.

CODE. always wins.

You want EVE's I-win button? Follow the CODE.