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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

First post First post First post
Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1221 - 2014-07-03 23:50:28 UTC
And that, folks, is way EVE has been going on for 11 years and counting.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1222 - 2014-07-03 23:59:41 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The reason for the confict is simple.
It's all based on false premises and uninformed assumptions? Yeah, sounds about right. Twisted
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1223 - 2014-07-04 04:28:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The reason for the confict is simple.
It's all based on false premises and uninformed assumptions? Yeah, sounds about right. Twisted


Are you accusing me of making all that up as I went along ?


Well ... it is GD.
Annette Nolen
Perkone
Caldari State
#1224 - 2014-07-04 05:24:16 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
That is an excellent question that I have wondered myself. For all I know Red Frog could be the ones doing the ganking or paying "protection" fees.


I'm going to get in trouble for this, but... we are totally the puppet masters behind CODE ganking in Aufay.

We killed Kennedy too.

That's right. Use Red Frog... or else.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1225 - 2014-07-04 05:48:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:

[quote]Quite simply that is the Gankers prey. They don't want to shoot combat ships. They want to shoot soft easy targets.
…aaaand? Why do the gankers have to organise and go after a small selection of targets and the targets not organise at all? Just because the gankers pick among the targets that are available to them does not mean that the selection is ridiculously small and that this in and of itself highlights a massive imbalance.

And no, playing that tanking your hull is not organising. Tanking your hull is fitting your ship. Absolutely no organisation is needed. Nice Pathetic try on the false equivocation though. Or wait… no, it is nice, because when people start pulling out the fallacies like that, and like with the entire initial straw man, you already know where it's headed.


Tippia you are so mad it's not even funny anymore. Quit trying to troll people so hard because you're starting to derail the thread. Take a breath, read what the other person actually wrote on the forums, and then post an answer that actually has some thought and discussion in it. The world will be okay, just take a deep breath.


Now, to help you understand. Gankers don't have a small, minute target selection available to them through game-breaking mechanics. They limit their selection based on their own personal decisions: ISK. Why do you feel that catalyst are best option for ganking and that it should take 20-30 catalyst to gank an orca? It's ISK effieicent. Why do you feel that meta fit talos are effective in ganking large targets like freighters? It's ISK effieicent. If you are truly ganking people just to gank them, then finally let your balls drop and start flying 2.3k DPS vindicators and go gank those purple fit marauders running level 4's.

Really gankers complain they can't easily kill someone who's put a lot of ISK into their ship using ships that are cheap and replaceableShocked

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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#1226 - 2014-07-04 06:15:36 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Tippia you are so mad it's not even funny anymore. Quit trying to troll people so hard because you're starting to derail the thread. Take a breath, read what the other person actually wrote on the forums, and then post an answer that actually has some thought and discussion in it. The world will be okay, just take a deep breath.

yes tippia is boiling with absolute rage

please keep your emotions in better check
Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1227 - 2014-07-04 09:06:18 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:
Tippia you are so mad it's not even funny anymore. Quit trying to troll people so hard because you're starting to derail the thread. Take a breath, read what the other person actually wrote on the forums, and then post an answer that actually has some thought and discussion in it. The world will be okay, just take a deep breath.

yes tippia is boiling with absolute rage

please keep your emotions in better check


Tippia has always been fantastic at performing an exegesis on another persons posts
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1228 - 2014-07-04 09:06:54 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:

[quote]Quite simply that is the Gankers prey. They don't want to shoot combat ships. They want to shoot soft easy targets.
…aaaand? Why do the gankers have to organise and go after a small selection of targets and the targets not organise at all? Just because the gankers pick among the targets that are available to them does not mean that the selection is ridiculously small and that this in and of itself highlights a massive imbalance.

And no, playing that tanking your hull is not organising. Tanking your hull is fitting your ship. Absolutely no organisation is needed. Nice Pathetic try on the false equivocation though. Or wait… no, it is nice, because when people start pulling out the fallacies like that, and like with the entire initial straw man, you already know where it's headed.


Tippia you are so mad it's not even funny anymore. Quit trying to troll people so hard because you're starting to derail the thread. Take a breath, read what the other person actually wrote on the forums, and then post an answer that actually has some thought and discussion in it. The world will be okay, just take a deep breath.


Now, to help you understand. Gankers don't have a small, minute target selection available to them through game-breaking mechanics. They limit their selection based on their own personal decisions: ISK. Why do you feel that catalyst are best option for ganking and that it should take 20-30 catalyst to gank an orca? It's ISK effieicent. Why do you feel that meta fit talos are effective in ganking large targets like freighters? It's ISK effieicent. If you are truly ganking people just to gank them, then finally let your balls drop and start flying 2.3k DPS vindicators and go gank those purple fit marauders running level 4's.

Really gankers complain they can't easily kill someone who's put a lot of ISK into their ship using ships that are cheap and replaceableShocked


Sure, lets spend several billion pointlessly to do the job of 20 t2 destroyers...
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1229 - 2014-07-04 10:47:25 UTC
Annette Nolen wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
That is an excellent question that I have wondered myself. For all I know Red Frog could be the ones doing the ganking or paying "protection" fees.


I'm going to get in trouble for this, but... we are totally the puppet masters behind CODE ganking in Aufay.

We killed Kennedy too.

That's right. Use Red Frog... or else.


Well, you did the US a good deed. Teddy was bad for the country.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1230 - 2014-07-04 10:50:20 UTC
actually, how easy it is to gank frieghters does not matter.

If a player has been in game long enough to fly freighters, he should know the means to survive.

The problem is ganking noobs, that's likely to kill the game.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1231 - 2014-07-04 11:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
baltec1 wrote:
Sure, lets spend several billion pointlessly to do the job of 20...
That's the template for government spending P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

malcovas Henderson
THoF
#1232 - 2014-07-04 11:09:53 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
actually, how easy it is to gank frieghters does not matter.

If a player has been in game long enough to fly freighters, he should know the means to survive.

The problem is ganking noobs, that's likely to kill the game.


I don't know. I was canflipped under a week old. Outraged and bemused I took back "MY" stuff. Needless to say I lost my ship. I am still playing.

I think some people know what they are getting into when starting EvE. Those that leave after first Gank are probably in the wrong game anyway.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1233 - 2014-07-04 13:00:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


As someone who has also just recently tried suicide ganking what exactly did you find difficult about it?

I mean most of the missioners we ganked didn't even shoot back.


I can guarantee you that you put in a lot more effort than your targets did.


If the missioner did less then watch netflix for 40 minutes, while browsing reddit on his phone with his feet up and beer in one hand, while waiting for the wtm call. Then yes you are correct he did put in less effort then me.

Or do you mean in the actual 12 seconds of combat? Where i was free to fly into optimal, lock up my target, overheat and when the call was made push f1? You know what! You're right! I earned that 30m payday for that gruelling 40 minutes of netflix and 12 seconds of intense combat which actually made me put my beer down.

Did I mention this was with a week old character in a 5m ship?

No I don't think suicide ganking needs a buff, no I would not call the act of suicide ganking difficult, nor would i refer to a half dozen ships warping to a target to push f1 overly "organized"

Yes i would say it's in a good place based on sp required, isk investment and payout per hour in high sec.

It's probably a dwindling career path because it's boring and the pay is garbage, which seems about right for the required investment.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1234 - 2014-07-04 13:47:50 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


As someone who has also just recently tried suicide ganking what exactly did you find difficult about it?

I mean most of the missioners we ganked didn't even shoot back.


I can guarantee you that you put in a lot more effort than your targets did.


If the missioner did less then watch netflix for 40 minutes, while browsing reddit on his phone with his feet up and beer in one hand, while waiting for the wtm call. Then yes you are correct he did put in less effort then me.

Or do you mean in the actual 12 seconds of combat? Where i was free to fly into optimal, lock up my target, overheat and when the call was made push f1? You know what! You're right! I earned that 30m payday for that gruelling 40 minutes of netflix and 12 seconds of intense combat which actually made me put my beer down.

Did I mention this was with a week old character in a 5m ship?

No I don't think suicide ganking needs a buff, no I would not call the act of suicide ganking difficult, nor would i refer to a half dozen ships warping to a target to push f1 overly "organized"

Yes i would say it's in a good place based on sp required, isk investment and payout per hour in high sec.

It's probably a dwindling career path because it's boring and the pay is garbage, which seems about right for the required investment.


The work in a suicide gank is the stuff that happens before the fleeting moments of combat, someone had to set up instas for any -10's in your fleet, scan down the mission runner, scan the fit to make sure enough DPS was on hand, make sure they had enough pilots to supply the DPS required etc.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1235 - 2014-07-04 14:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Organic Lager
Duplicate please delete
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#1236 - 2014-07-04 14:32:41 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


As someone who has also just recently tried suicide ganking what exactly did you find difficult about it?

I mean most of the missioners we ganked didn't even shoot back.


I can guarantee you that you put in a lot more effort than your targets did.


If the missioner did less then watch netflix for 40 minutes, while browsing reddit on his phone with his feet up and beer in one hand, while waiting for the wtm call. Then yes you are correct he did put in less effort then me.

Or do you mean in the actual 12 seconds of combat? Where i was free to fly into optimal, lock up my target, overheat and when the call was made push f1? You know what! You're right! I earned that 30m payday for that gruelling 40 minutes of netflix and 12 seconds of intense combat which actually made me put my beer down.

Did I mention this was with a week old character in a 5m ship?

No I don't think suicide ganking needs a buff, no I would not call the act of suicide ganking difficult, nor would i refer to a half dozen ships warping to a target to push f1 overly "organized"

Yes i would say it's in a good place based on sp required, isk investment and payout per hour in high sec.

It's probably a dwindling career path because it's boring and the pay is garbage, which seems about right for the required investment.


The work in a suicide gank is the stuff that happens before the fleeting moments of combat, someone had to set up instas for any -10's in your fleet, scan down the mission runner, scan the fit to make sure enough DPS was on hand, make sure they had enough pilots to supply the DPS required etc.


Sure there are a couple things to set up but is 1 guy scanning a ship and doing some pretty easy math really "difficult"? 90% of the fleet doesn't even need to lift a finger.

baltec isn't wrong there was a ton more he could have done (they all could have done). Eg fit a dcu instead of 4 navy bcus, watch local chat to know we were about, over heat his hardeners, use dscan to see us coming and prep, christ's sake he could have at least shot back.

Mission runners already have to worry about incoming dps, managing cap, managing drones, mission triggers, mission items, webs/scrams/ewar in general, ship placement, transversal, range/falloff, etc. Does the fact that someone had to scan his fit and do some math, then scan him down really mean the ganker worked harder? Or that it was difficult? Or that some how they earned to right to catch him unprepared?

Ganking seems to be in a good place as far as balance goes, it punishes the stupid but isn't overly rewarding and given the risk invested in it that seems like a fair trade off.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1237 - 2014-07-04 14:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Yun Kuai wrote:
Tippia you are so mad it's not even funny anymore. Quit trying to troll people so hard because you're starting to derail the thread.
I have to start before I can quit, and I think you might have me confused with someone else if you believe that madness or anger (can't tell which you're referring to) is a factor.

Quote:
Gankers don't have a small, minute target selection available to them through game-breaking mechanics.
Yes they do, because guess what it is that determines what they can kill in the given timeframe and without an obscenely imbalanced amount of manpower thrown at the problem? What do you think it is that determines the cost and pay-out of a gank? And no-one has said that the mechanics in question are game-breaking, only that if there is any kind of imbalance involved, it is heavily in favour of the target.

So I guess you've earned the same answer: nice pathetic try on the straw man and ad hominem. Or wait… no, it is nice, because when people start pulling out the fallacies like that, you already know where it's headed. Lol

Quote:
Really gankers complain they can't easily kill someone who's put a lot of ISK into their ship using ships that are cheap and replaceable Shocked
Are they? And if they are, that sounds about right. Putting a lot of ISK into a ship is not a valid reason for it being difficult to kill with cheap ships. That line of thinking is, in fact, one of the most painfully obvious roads to complete imbalance.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#1238 - 2014-07-04 15:34:37 UTC
When you spend all your time defending things the way they are instead of thinking of ways to improve them, it is surely the end of times.

Keep blustering into the void.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1239 - 2014-07-04 15:56:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Organic Lager wrote:

Mission runners already have to worry about incoming dps, managing cap, managing drones, mission triggers, mission items, webs/scrams/ewar in general, ship placement, transversal, range/falloff, etc.
All of which is very predictable, and extremely well documented. In a well fitted ship missions are trivial and require so little effort that people have written software that do them automatically*

If we're talking people that run missions in undersized ships for the challenge then yes they have more to worry about, your standard run of the mill missioner doesn't do that, they simply follow the "script"

Quote:
Does the fact that someone had to scan his fit and do some math, then scan him down really mean the ganker worked harder?
Yes, because missioners, myself included, are fed everything they need to know on a silver platter, gankers have to use their initiative, get their own intel and organise themselves.

Quote:
Or that it was difficult?
Try being an FC, try organising a gank fleet etc
Quote:
Or that some how they earned to right to catch him unprepared?
Planning, something the gankee often fails to do. If you're caught unprepared, it means you didn't plan well enough or use the tools at your disposal correctly. Last time someone tried to bait me into shooting at them in a mission space, I purposefully popped a trigger and dropped an Elite Frigate and Cruiser spawn on them, then warped out to let them deal with it.

Quote:
Ganking seems to be in a good place as far as balance goes, it punishes the stupid but isn't overly rewarding and given the risk invested in it that seems like a fair trade off.
Stupidity is infinite, as evidenced by the amount of people that fly into well known choke points blind. It doesn't get punished nearly enough, there's still a lot of it about.

*People who do this need to be terminated, in game, with extreme prejudice; then banned.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#1240 - 2014-07-04 18:01:57 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
When you spend all your time defending things the way they are instead of thinking of ways to improve them, it is surely the end of times.


People actually defend the ridiculously fast Concord response times?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff