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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#301 - 2014-06-18 01:57:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
From where I stand bumping is an aggressive action and should have some effect in line with that.

If, in real life I walked up to you and kept pushing you I wouldn't get away with it. So why is that true here? Let it happen and just build a solution that lets you get your butt beat for it.

Same thing for ganking... who cares if it happens... but in real life if a terrorist on the FBI wanted list was just sitting at a starbucks watching and deciding who he might jump, sooner or later the police would get him BEFORE he killed someone. Something like this needs to be built around ganking... it is simple... live and die by the sword.


If you'd like to argue for hyper realism, can we have the cops show up twenty minutes after a crime is reported like in real life, instead of with omnipotent space police magic?



Did I say hyper-realism? No. I just believe it is a sandbox and we should allow mostly anything. But each action has a cause an effect. And we should use some reality to think of maybe the effects of the cause. So decide to be a ganker and live like what a person like that lives like everywhere....
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2014-06-18 01:58:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
From where I stand bumping is an aggressive action and should have some effect in line with that.

If, in real life I walked up to you and kept pushing you I wouldn't get away with it. So why is that true here? Let it happen and just build a solution that lets you get your butt beat for it.

Same thing for ganking... who cares if it happens... but in real life if a terrorist on the FBI wanted list was just sitting at a starbucks watching and deciding who he might jump, sooner or later the police would get him BEFORE he killed someone. Something like this needs to be built around ganking... it is simple... live and die by the sword.


If you'd like to argue for hyper realism, can we have the cops show up twenty minutes after a crime is reported like in real life, instead of with omnipotent space police magic?
The problem with this assumed realism is that we don't have much real life frame of reference for what police response time would be like given the technological advances and apparent disparity between capsuleers and concord.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#303 - 2014-06-18 02:02:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'd buy that were it not for incidents like Aufey or burn Jita. Those special occasions where typical common sense and the things that keep you off the killboard 99 times out of 100 just don't work out because someone wants to make your day just a bit more special.


Because anyone should ever be 100% safe while undocked?

Quote:

Of course others may just consider that to be the complacency of highsec,


Yep.

Quote:

but until the level of activity in those incidents becomes the norm, or even just slightly more common/widespread can you blame them?


For ignoring their own defense? Of course. Just because it isn't likely that you will get a car wreck, do you stop wearing a seatbelt? Or do you take the batteries out of your smoke alarms, too?

Quote:

And aside from paying the extortion fee, do you think your normal prep would have gotten you through Aufay?


Firstly, my haulers pay their permit fees. Secondly, you betcha. I don't abdicate my responsibility of self defense, and as I try to stay abreast of current events (even if only via DotLan to play my route), it would have been rather simple to prepare.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#304 - 2014-06-18 02:03:01 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
From where I stand bumping is an aggressive action and should have some effect in line with that.

If, in real life I walked up to you and kept pushing you I wouldn't get away with it. So why is that true here? Let it happen and just build a solution that lets you get your butt beat for it.

Same thing for ganking... who cares if it happens... but in real life if a terrorist on the FBI wanted list was just sitting at a starbucks watching and deciding who he might jump, sooner or later the police would get him BEFORE he killed someone. Something like this needs to be built around ganking... it is simple... live and die by the sword.


If you'd like to argue for hyper realism, can we have the cops show up twenty minutes after a crime is reported like in real life, instead of with omnipotent space police magic?



Did I say hyper-realism? No. I just believe it is a sandbox and we should allow mostly anything. But each action has a cause an effect. And we should use some reality to think of maybe the effects of the cause. So decide to be a ganker and live like what a person like that lives like everywhere....


Ah, so you're a hypocrite, gotcha. You just want realism when it benefits you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#305 - 2014-06-18 02:07:24 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The problem with this assumed realism is that we don't have much real life frame of reference for what police response time would be like given the technological advances and apparent disparity between capsuleers and concord.


But we totally have a frame of reference for how space societies treat nigh immortal, infinitely wealthy demigods fighting among one another, right?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2014-06-18 02:11:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'd buy that were it not for incidents like Aufey or burn Jita. Those special occasions where typical common sense and the things that keep you off the killboard 99 times out of 100 just don't work out because someone wants to make your day just a bit more special.


Because anyone should ever be 100% safe while undocked?

...

Yep.

...

For ignoring their own defense? Of course. Just because it isn't likely that you will get a car wreck, do you stop wearing a seatbelt? Or do you take the batteries out of your smoke alarms, too?

...

Firstly, my haulers pay their permit fees. Secondly, you betcha. I don't abdicate my responsibility of self defense, and as I try to stay abreast of current events (even if only via DotLan to play my route), it would have been rather simple to prepare.

Never implied they should be 100% safe one way or another, and actually implied that at least some level of responsibility was taken. Furthermore that remaining 1 in 100 implied that even with at least some responsibility things happen. I even so much as said so. And funny enough the things you highlight kinda underscore that point. You have seatbelts and fire alarms because accidents and fires happen, but knowing that driving is still a thing I do and I don't live in a home with no burnable materials.

The Dotlan thing is a good point, though.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2014-06-18 02:14:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The problem with this assumed realism is that we don't have much real life frame of reference for what police response time would be like given the technological advances and apparent disparity between capsuleers and concord.
But we totally have a frame of reference for how space societies treat nigh immortal, infinitely wealthy demigods fighting among one another, right?
Behaviorally? Yeah kinda. All you have to do is log in to see it. Realistically, no, but that doesn't work in favor of your point. That just means we have 2 points where we just roll with what works.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#308 - 2014-06-18 02:16:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:



Did I say hyper-realism? No. I just believe it is a sandbox and we should allow mostly anything. But each action has a cause an effect. And we should use some reality to think of maybe the effects of the cause. So decide to be a ganker and live like what a person like that lives like everywhere....


Ah, so you're a hypocrite, gotcha. You just want realism when it benefits you.


Yeah and I guess you are just trying to be difficult. Nothing here is about a benefit for me or you... if you actually try to see beyond the "exact" words I am using and get the actual message of what I am trying to convey you should be able to understand that I am just talking about a better cause and effect scenario.

Tyberius is closer to understanding my point...

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The problem with this assumed realism is that we don't have much real life frame of reference for what police response time would be like given the technological advances and apparent disparity between capsuleers and concord.


We don't have a frame of exact reference but we could use parallels as examples.

In a relatively safe area a person that has consistently acted like a thief and thug usually just can't sit there enjoying their coffee without receiving the repercussions of their previous actions. So something like that could be applied to our ganking situation and I am sure CCP can find an answer instead of a consistent buff/nerf discussion.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#309 - 2014-06-18 02:17:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The problem with this assumed realism is that we don't have much real life frame of reference for what police response time would be like given the technological advances and apparent disparity between capsuleers and concord.
But we totally have a frame of reference for how space societies treat nigh immortal, infinitely wealthy demigods fighting among one another, right?
Behaviorally? Yeah kinda. All you have to do is log in to see it. Realistically, no, but that doesn't work in favor of your point. That just means we have 2 points where we just roll with what works.


No, what you have is the established lore, such as it is, of CONCORD. Why they do what they do, etc.

What you don't have is the "treat them like the FBI would and attack them at a Starbucks" or whatever nonsense Xaldafax was talking about.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#310 - 2014-06-18 02:19:48 UTC
So there are 16 pages to this thread... I'm not reading all of that crap...

Has anyone... Just possibly... Mentioned that it may be safer to go a few jumps through a quiet stretch of low sec than it would be to keep trying to fly freighters through systems like Aufray and Niarja?

How about dem high sec to high sec WH's that can carry freighters? I've scanned a few of those down without even looking for them, they shouldn't be hard to find with a covops frigate and a few minutes. You get to skip the scary bits of space AND cut an hour off of your travel time if you're lucky. It's all win.

I also don't understand the logic behind using a freighter over a transport or blockade runner. It make take several more trips to haul the same volume but you can make those several trips in the same amount of time with a significantly lower chance of losing your ship overall, and you lose significantly less if you do get ganked.... If you're gonna carebear, get it right and minimize the risk as much as possible. If you're going to take risks and fly a giant space whale that attracts everyone's attention, man up and don't cry on the forums when your bluff gets called.

It kind of makes me wish I was the kind of person who could find transporting in Eve entertaining, because I have a feeling I could get filthy rich doing it....

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#311 - 2014-06-18 02:23:18 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:

In a relatively safe area a person that has consistently acted like a thief and thug usually just can't sit there enjoying their coffee without receiving the repercussions of their previous actions.


Capsuleers aren't "people". They're demigods. The game's lore is littered with references about how they are above almost any law. The only authority they answer to is CONCORD. And CONCORD exists solely to prevent them from making such war upon one another as it spills out into the empires.

They don't care if we steal, lie and cheat. They don't care if we murder one another, they are just required to punish each individual act of outright hostility. After that, they don't care. This is noticeable because they can't attack us ourselves. Just our ships. The pods are off limits to CONCORD, even they don't have that power.


Quote:

So something like that could be applied to our ganking situation and I am sure CCP can find an answer instead of a consistent buff/nerf discussion.


And like I said, if you want to pretend like things from real life apply here, then I'm pretty sure the gankers have a few choice suggestions too.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#312 - 2014-06-18 02:26:38 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Some men just want to watch the world burn.

There's space for us all in New Eden.

What if some people see the world differently?Straight

At the end of the day... which is truly correct????? Both are real to the beholder!!!! Shocked

How did you Veterans start?
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#313 - 2014-06-18 02:29:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:

In a relatively safe area a person that has consistently acted like a thief and thug usually just can't sit there enjoying their coffee without receiving the repercussions of their previous actions.


Capsuleers aren't "people". They're demigods. The game's lore is littered with references about how they are above almost any law. The only authority they answer to is CONCORD. And CONCORD exists solely to prevent them from making such war upon one another as it spills out into the empires.

They don't care if we steal, lie and cheat. They don't care if we murder one another, they are just required to punish each individual act of outright hostility. After that, they don't care. This is noticeable because they can't attack us ourselves. Just our ships. The pods are off limits to CONCORD, even they don't have that power.


Quote:

So something like that could be applied to our ganking situation and I am sure CCP can find an answer instead of a consistent buff/nerf discussion.


And like I said, if you want to pretend like things from real life apply here, then I'm pretty sure the gankers have a few choice suggestions too.


Kaarous,

Now this is helpful... I admit I wasn't aware of the "lore" part. So fair that is Concord's role... But as I stated before I am not trying to apply exact real life scenarios... I am sure you can get beyond the words and understand a deeper meaning.

You are welcome to believe what you want and see the world the way you want and this game too... but I believe we can find a middle ground by applying models and themes and other references than just simple binary either/or type solutions.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#314 - 2014-06-18 02:31:19 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
but I believe we can find a middle ground by applying models and themes and other references than just simple binary either/or type solutions.


No, we can't. Regardless of whatever model you might want to use, it seems very clear to me that you want less player freedom. That is flatly unacceptable to me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#315 - 2014-06-18 03:01:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
but I believe we can find a middle ground by applying models and themes and other references than just simple binary either/or type solutions.


No, we can't. Regardless of whatever model you might want to use, it seems very clear to me that you want less player freedom. That is flatly unacceptable to me.


Wow I guess you really have a complete misunderstanding of my message from the start. I want MORE player freedom... both on the GANKER and NON-GANKER sides.

What part of my "cause and effect" comment was not understood? Hence, why I also followed it up with the comment about applying models, themes, and other references instead of just a yes/no solution.

Freedom needs to be on both sides right now. Actually if we would increase the abilities of those in high-sec to take action toward a ganker PRIOR to his gank, then I think we might have a way to solve the problem. The bounty system needs rework, etc. But there is no reason to get into any of that because if people aren't even able to get my simple message of "cause and effect" and "applying a different model to the problem" then it isn't worth the time to try to explain.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#316 - 2014-06-18 03:06:11 UTC
Except for the first freighter popped in Aufay on that glorious day, every single one of them willingly jumped into a system where dozens of ships had been blown up in the previous hour. While I was ganking that day, the starmap was showing over 100 the whole time.

Anyone stupid enough to jump a freighter into such a system deserves to lose it.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#317 - 2014-06-18 03:47:41 UTC
I breathe a sigh of relief when my hauler alt gets back to low sec. I know where the camps are there and more importantly - where they aren't. I don't break out in hives undocking either.Big smile
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#318 - 2014-06-18 04:00:10 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
but I believe we can find a middle ground by applying models and themes and other references than just simple binary either/or type solutions.


No, we can't. Regardless of whatever model you might want to use, it seems very clear to me that you want less player freedom. That is flatly unacceptable to me.


Wow I guess you really have a complete misunderstanding of my message from the start. I want MORE player freedom... both on the GANKER and NON-GANKER sides.

What part of my "cause and effect" comment was not understood? Hence, why I also followed it up with the comment about applying models, themes, and other references instead of just a yes/no solution.

Freedom needs to be on both sides right now. Actually if we would increase the abilities of those in high-sec to take action toward a ganker PRIOR to his gank, then I think we might have a way to solve the problem. The bounty system needs rework, etc. But there is no reason to get into any of that because if people aren't even able to get my simple message of "cause and effect" and "applying a different model to the problem" then it isn't worth the time to try to explain.


Haulers do not need any more abilities increased. They have a huge amount of tools and tactics to combat gankers and many of them are very very easy to do. Ganking should not be nerfed even more to protect people from their own greed, lazyness and stupidity.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#319 - 2014-06-18 04:10:50 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
So there are 16 pages to this thread... I'm not reading all of that crap...

Has anyone... Just possibly... Mentioned that it may be safer to go a few jumps through a quiet stretch of low sec than it would be to keep trying to fly freighters through systems like Aufray and Niarja?

How about dem high sec to high sec WH's that can carry freighters? I've scanned a few of those down without even looking for them, they shouldn't be hard to find with a covops frigate and a few minutes. You get to skip the scary bits of space AND cut an hour off of your travel time if you're lucky. It's all win.

I also don't understand the logic behind using a freighter over a transport or blockade runner. It make take several more trips to haul the same volume but you can make those several trips in the same amount of time with a significantly lower chance of losing your ship overall, and you lose significantly less if you do get ganked.... If you're gonna carebear, get it right and minimize the risk as much as possible. If you're going to take risks and fly a giant space whale that attracts everyone's attention, man up and don't cry on the forums when your bluff gets called.

It kind of makes me wish I was the kind of person who could find transporting in Eve entertaining, because I have a feeling I could get filthy rich doing it....


10,000 M3 in a DST versus 900,000 M3 in a freighter.

"several more trips to haul the same volume " ???????
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2014-06-18 04:16:59 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
So there are 16 pages to this thread... I'm not reading all of that crap...

Has anyone... Just possibly... Mentioned that it may be safer to go a few jumps through a quiet stretch of low sec than it would be to keep trying to fly freighters through systems like Aufray and Niarja?

How about dem high sec to high sec WH's that can carry freighters? I've scanned a few of those down without even looking for them, they shouldn't be hard to find with a covops frigate and a few minutes. You get to skip the scary bits of space AND cut an hour off of your travel time if you're lucky. It's all win.

I also don't understand the logic behind using a freighter over a transport or blockade runner. It make take several more trips to haul the same volume but you can make those several trips in the same amount of time with a significantly lower chance of losing your ship overall, and you lose significantly less if you do get ganked.... If you're gonna carebear, get it right and minimize the risk as much as possible. If you're going to take risks and fly a giant space whale that attracts everyone's attention, man up and don't cry on the forums when your bluff gets called.

It kind of makes me wish I was the kind of person who could find transporting in Eve entertaining, because I have a feeling I could get filthy rich doing it....


10,000 M3 in a DST versus 900,000 M3 in a freighter.

"several more trips to haul the same volume " ???????
Dude, 90 round trips trips is totally fair. If you aren't willing you totally don't deserve to have that cargo moved without exploding.