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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

First post First post First post
Author
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#341 - 2014-06-18 07:43:01 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

At what point have I even mentioned being afk?

You can easily bump a freighter who is not afk. What you are saying is that every trip you make in your freighter you have to have a couple of guys with you all the way using a legal loophole.

My align time in a providence is 42 seconds. Sure I can fit 3 nano's and totally gimp the EHP but its till going to take 27 secs. That is plenty of time to get bumped. Being afk has nothing to do with it.

Needing people to use a legal loophole to avoid a tactic is a bad game design.


No it isn't. If one pilot could bump your freighter and gank your freighter that would be bad (and CCP has repeatedly eliminated things like boomerang that allowed for undersized gangs to overperform). That a gang can win many including specialists vs 1 in a MMO is perfectly reasonable.

What is causing people grief right now, is that you can mostly sail about randomly afk and get away with it. if you never got away with it, you'd figure out your logistics and your economics so that you didn't need the freighter much and the freighter loads that -absolutely- had to fly freighter would be sufficiently valuable to you to fly escorted and scouted.

I bought an obelisk in 2009, and I can't currently undock it at all, since the undock is a known marmite location, and only 1 marmite pilot is required to beat me solo in an obelisk. ie your situation is much easier than mine (and I don't think there is anything wrong with mine, its a fair consequence of an act).

The recent aufay killings have shown up an awful lot of freighters flying pointlessly anyway, where had conditions been harsh enough to actually require the pilot to think before undocking they would have not flown the freighter, and it is a better game if you do in fact make logical survival choices.

CCP has also resolved ore as a problem that requires a freighter, and made that far less necessary or desirable (or at least it will be when the full indy patch hits).
Arec Bardwin
#342 - 2014-06-18 09:09:31 UTC
Now this thread is a nice kettle of fish, now with dev herrings.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#343 - 2014-06-18 09:40:20 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Some men just want to watch the world burn.

There's space for us all in New Eden.

What if some people see the world differently?Straight

CCP Falcon wrote:
There's space for us all in New Eden.


ShahFluffers wrote:
At the end of the day... which is truly correct????? Both are real to the beholder!!!! Shocked


CCP Falcon wrote:
There's space for us all in New Eden.


Reading is hard, y'all

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Elmonky
Spanglish Pack Rat and Co
Pirate Lords of War
#344 - 2014-06-18 09:41:57 UTC
Still going huh?

Damn these heresies against HTFU are stacking up in here. Going to be no-one left in high sec at this point.

When i set off for work I do several things :

Car keys - check
House locked - check
Car full of fuel for the journey - check
Car not going to 'splode on route - check
Traffic route looked at for alerts - check
have i got my communication tools? - check
Do I got noms? - check



its all unconcious. Forgetting any of these things will make my day 100% ******.


Apply all of the above to Eve

Ship - check
Undock safe? - check
Ship full of cap and stuff - check
Ship repaired? - Check
Have all of the ships died on the route i am about to take? - check
Is anyone online to escort me? - check
Do I got noms? - check


its all unconcious. Forgetting any of these things will make my day 100% ******.



Velicitia
XS Tech
#345 - 2014-06-18 10:02:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
...I can see 10k m^3 being restrictive unless the new compression offers something like a 3:1 ratio, which from what I understand it doesn't, correctme if I'm wrong...



You're right, it doesn't give 3:1 ...

100 Units Veld (10 m3) -> 1 Unit Compressed Veld (0.15 M3)

I think the other ores are also about a 66:1 compression ratio. At work, so I can't log into SISI and double-check.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Noragli
Doomheim
#346 - 2014-06-18 10:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Noragli
The proof that ganking is too easy to do is when empty freighters are targetted in hi-sec space. Some were even tanked with 3 bulkheads, and empty, still ganked.

Nobody is asking for ganking to be removed, but the mechanics could use a change. Nobody should be able to stay at -10 in hi-sec and continue to gank people. Ship use should be restricted if you are an outlaw trying to use a system that is above your level of security status. You can still travel anywhere in a pod, and possible a shuttle if they allow that.

If you want to keep ganking in hi-sec , you can, but first you need to fix your sec status. I know right now that it's quite cheap using the new pirate drop, but if this change is made, more people will buy it, and the price will go up.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#347 - 2014-06-18 10:26:21 UTC
Noragli wrote:
The proof that ganking is too easy to do is when empty freighters are targetted in hi-sec space. Some were even tanked with 3 bulkheads, and empty, still ganked.

Nobody is asking for ganking to be removed, but the mechanics could use a change. Nobody should be able to stay at -10 in hi-sec and continue to gank people. Ship use should be restricted if you are an outlaw trying to use a system that is above your level of security status. You can still travel anywhere in a pod, and possible a shuttle if they allow that.

If you want to keep ganking in hi-sec , you can, but first you need to fix your sec status. I know right now that it's quite cheap using the new pirate drop, but if this change is made, more people will buy it, and the price will go up.

You realize that you write this two weeks after another nerf to ganking by a Freighter EHP buff. This is just one in a series of past nerfs to ganking and everytime the carebears say the next small nerf will fix the game for them.

The problem is not the game or the current mechanics however they may be changed. The problem is that there are players that are interested in the game mechanics on one side and carebears who have no interest or clue at all on the other. If you change the current mechanics we will find a way to kill your freighter in the new system, because that's what we do.

What makes you even think you are entitled to fly a freighter trough highsec without escort? Your whole perception of this game is wrong. We are here to correct it.
Noragli
Doomheim
#348 - 2014-06-18 10:34:54 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Noragli wrote:
The proof that ganking is too easy to do is when empty freighters are targetted in hi-sec space. Some were even tanked with 3 bulkheads, and empty, still ganked.

Nobody is asking for ganking to be removed, but the mechanics could use a change. Nobody should be able to stay at -10 in hi-sec and continue to gank people. Ship use should be restricted if you are an outlaw trying to use a system that is above your level of security status. You can still travel anywhere in a pod, and possible a shuttle if they allow that.

If you want to keep ganking in hi-sec , you can, but first you need to fix your sec status. I know right now that it's quite cheap using the new pirate drop, but if this change is made, more people will buy it, and the price will go up.

You realize that you write this two weeks after another nerf to ganking by a Freighter EHP buff. This is just one in a series of past nerfs to ganking and everytime the carebears say the next small nerf will fix the game for them.

The problem is not the game or the current mechanics however they may be changed. The problem is that there are players that are interested in the game mechanics on one side and carebears who have no interest or clue at all on the other. If you change the current mechanics we will find a way to kill your freighter in the new system, because that's what we do.

What makes you even think you are entitled to fly a freighter trough highsec without escort? Your whole perception of this game is wrong. We are here to correct it.


I never said what I suggest will fix the game, but it will help. Rarely is there any one single change that can fix something completely.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#349 - 2014-06-18 10:36:01 UTC
The mechanic isn't broken. It doesn't need to be changed. What needs to be changed are the habits of the pilots flying the victimboats. Failure to adapt to a changing environment does not merit a rework of the system.
Plenty of folks have offered tips and advice on how to assist in this adaptation, but they seem to be falling on deaf ears.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#350 - 2014-06-18 10:37:47 UTC
Noragli wrote:
The pen empty freighters are targetted in hi-sec space. Some were even tanked with 3 bulkheads, and empty, still ganked.

Nobody is asking for ganking to be removed, but the mechanics could use a change. Nobody should be able to stay at -10 in hi-sec and continue to gank people. Ship use should be restricted if you are an outlaw trying to use a system that is above your level of security status. You can still travel anywhere in a pod, and possible a shuttle if they allow that.

If you want to keep ganking in hi-sec , you can, but first you need to fix your sec status. I know right now that it's quite cheap using the new pirate drop, but if this change is made, more people will buy it, and the price will go up.


They are not cheap, hence why most dont bother with them. You have just nerfed everyone that pvps in lowsec and greatly damaged EVE in the long run.

Ganking has been nerfed to the point now where any more nerfs to it will effectivly remove it as a viable profession. You have the tools and tactics you need, it is entirely your own fault if you get ganked now.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#351 - 2014-06-18 10:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Failure to adapt to a changing environment does not merit a rework of the system.
Well said.

In nature such a failure generally leads to extinction, suicide gankers have adapted time and time again to changes in their environment, it's about time others started to do so too.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#352 - 2014-06-18 10:54:31 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Some men just want to watch the world burn.

There's space for us all in New Eden.




Some of us just want to watch the world learn.

Professor Loyalanon's lessons are unexpected and expensive, but they make the point in a manner that is not quickly forgotten.

In EVE, safety begins with you. Watch your starmap for obvious traps. Buy your permit as a cheap way to prevent pointless losses. And remember... CONSTANT VIGILANCE!

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#353 - 2014-06-18 11:02:54 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Some men just want to watch the world burn.

There's space for us all in New Eden.



Falcon, this is going in my Bio and will be quoted often when people complain to me that somehow high-sec warfare is something that CCP does not want to be part of Eve Online.

You made my morning!
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#354 - 2014-06-18 11:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
To be completely honest, suicide ganking activities should be increased by a factor of 100, just to be able to see the bigger picture and impact on the game without personal views on the subject from all three sides: the victims, the gankers and CCP's game designers. It looks like CSM and CCP are not even willing to look at whether the subject needs any attention in the first place without sufficient data to see the behavioral patterns of their subscribers.

So I say to the CODE. and to everyone else involved in the activity: intensify the activities as much as you possibly can. Recruit new pilots, be more active and amass as much kills as possible in a day by covering all time zones. When the activity reaches significantly higher levels, then we would be able to see on a large scale what really happens and if anything needs to be changed. Oh... and create as detailed statistics as possible and drop it on a web page so you will have the strongest argument available when it comes to reviewing the actual situation.

On that scale, even the slightest problems in the mechanics would become visible if they exist at all. So neither side could claim that the problem lies in the other side. Hopefully, enough damage would be made for CSM and CCP to pay at least some attention to it and finally say if it's OK in the current shape and form or not.

In case you are wondering and can't grasp the magnitude of what I'm talking about, I'm talking about prolonged, months long action that combines Burn Jita and Hulkageddon with expansion of "Burn" part to all major trade and mission hubs. Everything and anything should be included and tested just to cover all aspects of ganking and have measurable statistics about whether anything should be changed: freighters, mining ships, industrials, mission ships (battleships, T3s, Marauders...).

It's obvious that on current magnitude CCP and CSM are not even willing to look at the activity to see if there are any problems and stick to years old catch phrases that are outdated in today's EVE (see dev post in this thread for reference). Currently both sides, victims and gankers, bang their heads against the wall playing with flaming, trolling, extremely subjective approach, quoting and responding out of context and playing with semantics on the forum which obviously lead only to pointless hard to read threadnoughts where nothing constructive has ever created. I say, give CCP some data meat to chew on and see what happens.

One thing both sides should remember is this:
After the over magnified action like this, not a single side would have any argument to complain whatsoever if the result of CCP's action would be negative for their side: for both victims and gankers - since the decision and action (or lack of it) would be based on cold hard objective data.

Gank away, fellow pilots. Gank like you have never ganked before.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#355 - 2014-06-18 11:25:45 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
To be completely honest, suicide ganking activities should be increased by a factor of 100
That makes no sense at all.

The current balance - whether you personally like it or not - is also tied to ISK cost/benefit and player enjoyment (not all EVE PVPers love suicide ganking, you know), among other factors. The very fact that we do not have Burn Jita every day proves that there is balance in place.

It's like saying let's make MWD boost +50,000% instead of +500% to see if speed is good or bad for the game.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#356 - 2014-06-18 11:28:48 UTC
Elmonky wrote:
When i set off for work I do several things :

Car keys - check
House locked - check
Car full of fuel for the journey - check
Car not going to 'splode on route - check
Traffic route looked at for alerts - check
have i got my communication tools? - check
Do I got noms? - check

You are so organised. When I set off for work it's more like this:

Car keys - crap I'm late already. Where are my keys..."hon, where are my keys"... ..."how the hell would I know. You never put them in the same place twice"... ...15 minutes later. There they are in the pocket of the pants I wore yesterday, which have already been washed by my clean freak wife. Hope the electronics door key still works...
House locked - Um. The front's probably locked... ...The back, not so much. Who cares, the cat will scare away the Kangaroos
Car full of fuel for the journey - "F'ing bloody hell. Damn you Kay [my wife]. The car's empty again. Why didn't you fill it when you were out"
Car not going to 'splode on route - hmmm... ...check
Traffic route looked at for alerts - What? That's a little anal. If I hit traffic, I'll just change route along with everyobody else so we are all miserable and stuck in traffic together. Still moving at 5 kph for an extra 20 km is better than sitting still behind that accident... ...Of course the radio traffic report lets me know the accident had been cleared... F'ing bloody hell.
have i got my communication tools? - What. Oh my phone. Yep, been looking at Eve-O forum while I'm driving. One day I'm going to be the cause of that accident that holds everyone up
Do I got noms? - What? Do I get what? I just eventually get to work and then have to deal with my team of 12 staff. This is going to be fun. No wonder I work long hours....
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#357 - 2014-06-18 11:47:54 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
To be completely honest, suicide ganking activities should be increased by a factor of 100
That makes no sense at all.

The current balance - whether you personally like it or not - is also tied to ISK cost/benefit and player enjoyment (not all EVE PVPers love suicide ganking, you know), among other factors. The very fact that we do not have Burn Jita every day proves that there is balance in place.

It's like saying let's make MWD boost +50,000% instead of +500% to see if speed is good or bad for the game.


Regrading the balance part and MWD comparison:
There we go again... subjective approach and playing with semantics CoolBig smile

Regarding the possibility of activity expansions and costs:
According to Halaima MinerBumping IPO - Over THREE HUNDRED SIXTY-FOUR BILLION sold there's enough interest by investors to see this happen and there are certainly enough funds already to make a good start. Besides, suicide ganking is a self-sustainable activity that can pay for itself even without massive outside funding as we already have in place now. Recruiting more is not an issue since it can be a side activity anyway and anyone can participate and contribute to in it at their own pace with an alt. Existence of hard-core dedicated gankers is encouraged, but the real effect would come even if more casual numbers are involved.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2014-06-18 11:57:02 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Regarding the possibility of activity expansions and costs:
According to Halaima MinerBumping IPO - Over THREE HUNDRED SIXTY-FOUR BILLION sold there's enough interest by investors to see this happen and there are certainly enough funds already to make a good start.
No, 330 Billion have already been spent.

Whether in catalysts or in James 315's personal 'projects', it still proves ISK is an effective balancing factor.

Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
playing with semantics
You're suggesting to remove balancing factors to prove that, without them, the system isn't balanced. Roll

You're having issues with logic, not semantics. Lol

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#359 - 2014-06-18 11:59:54 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
To be completely honest, suicide ganking activities should be increased by a factor of 100
That makes no sense at all.

The current balance - whether you personally like it or not - is also tied to ISK cost/benefit and player enjoyment (not all EVE PVPers love suicide ganking, you know), among other factors. The very fact that we do not have Burn Jita every day proves that there is balance in place.

It's like saying let's make MWD boost +50,000% instead of +500% to see if speed is good or bad for the game.


Regrading the balance part and MWD comparison:
There we go again... subjective approach and playing with semantics CoolBig smile

Regarding the possibility of activity expansions and costs:
According to Halaima MinerBumping IPO - Over THREE HUNDRED SIXTY-FOUR BILLION sold there's enough interest by investors to see this happen and there are certainly enough funds already to make a good start. Besides, suicide ganking is a self-sustainable activity that can pay for itself even without massive outside funding as we already have in place now. Recruiting more is not an issue since it can be a side activity anyway and anyone can participate and contribute to in it at their own pace with an alt. Existence of hard-core dedicated gankers is encouraged, but the real effect would come even if more casual numbers are involved.


It would not be sustainable and no powerblock could fund it.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#360 - 2014-06-18 12:06:19 UTC
Noragli wrote:
The proof that ganking is too easy to do is when empty freighters are targetted in hi-sec space. Some were even tanked with 3 bulkheads, and empty, still ganked.

Nobody is asking for ganking to be removed, but the mechanics could use a change. Nobody should be able to stay at -10 in hi-sec and continue to gank people. Ship use should be restricted if you are an outlaw trying to use a system that is above your level of security status. You can still travel anywhere in a pod, and possible a shuttle if they allow that.

If you want to keep ganking in hi-sec , you can, but first you need to fix your sec status. I know right now that it's quite cheap using the new pirate drop, but if this change is made, more people will buy it, and the price will go up.


You do realize that ganking has been nerfed over and over again, yes? If players still cannot figure out how not to lose their Freighter, they deserve to lose their Freighter. And the fact that you sympathize for them is scary as it proposes the idea that you want Highsec to become ever more safe than it already is.

Obligatory WoW joke.

A "tank" fit Obelisk can have 370k EHP vs. relevant damage types. This would require 17,000-21,000 DPS in a 0.5 system. And that's the bare minimum you would want to have; that fact of the matter is you would want to bring more DPS than the minimum.

Obtaining this amount of DPS isn't easy and it's likely your fleet will have over 25 characters after all roles are met and assuming not everyone is a level 5 Talos pilot. In fact just the other day I was in a gank fleet that had close to 50 characters in fleet. This is a feat in of itself.

So, all you see is a ship go boom and automatically think how easy it must have been. It's easy to believe this, because again, that's all you get to see. What you don't get to see all the work that's going on in the background. The logistics. The intel and scouting. The bumping. Setting up the warp-ins for -10 players who can only be on grid for short periods of time before Faction Police scrams them; hence one of the downfalls to being -10 in Highsec. The communication between the aforementioned roles, the FC and the players on grid. Setting up and making sure the looters are in position before and after the target goes down. FC'ing a fleet that could be considered a "small" Nullsec roaming fleet. And, the fact that all of this needs to be done relatively quickly. Not to mention the slightest mistake can completely screw everything up. This is what I can come up with off the top of my head. It's not that ganking a Freighter isn't difficult, but there's a lot more that goes on than just some ships exploding.

Oh and it's not like CCP hands us free Talos', although that would be nice. Maybe in an upcoming patch???Roll

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet