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K first let me address the competitive side of the equation.
A 4% advantage by using POS is enormous, and can't be shrugged aside. Especially, if the POS cost is shared by a corp...
If u use null sec numbers 86.8 to 72.4 then competitivity is really threatened

Now I understand there r the security aspect, fuel, and risk vs reward, but u we're speaking of competitivity and saying 4% is nothing... U know that the margins on most T1 ships is btw 10-20% ?


I think a good solution of compression array is to use the BP model, put the ore in a NPC station and use ur compression array remotely , and recover the compressed ore from the POS... Just an idea...

Why would anybody bother buying the 4% implant when there is no advantage to having it? Oh and as the implant has absolutely nothing to do with installing a refining array and would not be lost if the outpost were to fall into unfriendly hands.. ..

And the price i quoted was an example of how much easier it is to replace a pos compared to an outpost.. As you can't just float the pos module in space without a pos neither can you have outpost refining without the outpost.


BTW; I have a NYX I would be more than happy to sell you for 50 bil.

Compression should be added to the Orca, considering that compression for the Rorqual is changing so much.

Will compression require the Rorqual to be in deployed mode to compress?

Could the Rorqual/Orca compress while in a station or just in space?

I'm a relatively new player who is focusing on Mining and Industry at the moment, so I know I don't have the experience of most of the folks on this thread. At my core, I'm a math guy. "Spreadsheets in Space" was a line used to sell me on the game, not keep me away from it.

There are pieces of the Refining experience I haven't played with yet (like Rorquals and compression), but on its face, the numbers make a lot of sense.

I agree completely with the intent of the changes, but I think that the math could use some polishing up. This method assumes the same increase in Ore to Minerals conversion of 38.1%, but simply alters how some of the calculations are done. That having been said, if there was a way to make the Refining output "look like" 100% to the player, I'd prefer that - this just address the underlying calculations.

Key for my new formulae (shorthand to save characters in the post).
S = Station Equipment rating
R = Refining skill
E = Refining Efficiency skill
P = Ore Processing specialty skill
I = % gain from implant (4% => .04)

So, the old formula is:
S + .375 * (1 + .02R) * (1 + .04E) * (1 + .05 P) * (1 + I)

While the proposed new formula is:
S * (1 + .03R) * (1 + .02E) * (1 + .02P) * (1 + I)

The problem that I have with the new math is that it shifts the value of Station Equipment from the least important number to pretty much the only important one. Skills end up with a "diminishing returns" effect that makes progression somewhat unpalatable.

My view is that the mechanics should be altered somewhat - Station Equipment and Refining Efficiency should help reduce waste, while Refining and [Material] Processing should increase base yield, as follows:
Base yield % = (1 + .03R) * (1 + .02P) * (1 + I)
Waste % = (1 - S) * (1 - .02E)
Net yield (pre-tax) % = [(1 + .03R) * (1 + .02P) * (1 + I)] * [(1 - (1 - S) * (1 - .02E))]

If you run the numbers, you'll find that at a 50% Station Efficiency, the results for the CCP proposal and my own are identical (same 72.4% at max skills + 4% implant, but all the #s do line up).

However, as you move away from 50% stations, the disparity becomes rather large (in both directions). Here are the numbers for max skill at 25%, 40%, and 60% stations
25% station:
- CCP proposal: 36.2%
- My proposal: 42.8%

40% station:
- CCP proposal: 57.9%
- My proposal: 60.5%

60% station:
- CCP proposal: 86.8%
- My proposal: 84.2%

The intent here is to create a significant, but less-than-linear, impact for Station Equipment. Low-/Null-Sec Industry can still prosper without invalidating Hi-Sec. A 20% boon to refining (CCP-proposed 60% Minmatar Output refining max) seems a little much to me.

On the flip side, the math would theoretically allow even higher level stations (up to ~74%) for even higher output before hitting what would be the new "Perfect Refine" ceiling.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Overall I think the changes outlined are great but am wondering about some of the secondary and tertiary effects. The one I am thinking about now is mineral prices and how they are used as an index for other prices in the game.

One example is that according to my understanding of bounties is that they use the value of minerals in destroyed ships for the calculated payout. If the mineral market is divided into minerals to be used in nearby systems to jita, and compressed ore market, how is this going to affect the indexed prices in the game? Will mineral prices fall dramatically and cause dramatic fluctuations in bounty payouts? Are there other examples of items/prices in the game that will be affected by the change in the mineral price structure?

Also, I assume that the mineral composition of items for bounty payouts uses the manufacturing bill of materials and not the refined mineral prices. Otherwise this could also affect bounty payouts as well.

It s late so my numbers r gonna be approximate

High sec:
In station u r gonna need max skills ( lvl 5 in the two refining plus lvl 5 in the ore specific skill) plus the best refining implant +4%
U ll get 72.4% which is the current 100%
In other words if u get all max skills plus implant u r ore refining will not be affected by the patch.

However, other ppl will be able to get more minerals refined than u
Still in high sec:
In a POS ppl can refine at a 75.6% with no skills or implants (having skills won't change the yield)

Low sec:
In POS ppl will refine at 78.1% still with no skills


Null sec:
Here the numbers will vary depending on the upgrade lvl of the player owned station, getting to a max refine yield in a fully upgraded minmatar station with 86.8%
The other racial station will be lower by several percentage point, but they will be better than high sec stations

In short,
If u r a miner ur better off mining in null , and refining ur ore in a minmatar station in null for max yield

If u r a miner not null or not close to a minmatar station, u can use a compressing array in a POS , to compress ur ore and reduce its volume and transport it to a minmatar station in null, for max reigning yield.

U ll have to run the numbers, but even with transport costs the 15% better yield of a null sec minmatar station is worth it.

So find ur self a null corp with minmatar station and who r willing to upgrade it (it ll cost like 60 bil to get the 86.8 refining yield upgrades...)

It is leveling the player field, it takes unfair advantages away from care bears and give care bears a better positions then say botters. Imagine having both good refine and compression at a NPC station, like now essentially. Bot accounts will be in a NPC corporation and have all the perfect tools to optimize their process. Always beating the actual players while being practically invulnerable economically speaking! Blowing up a few ships does nothing to hurt them.

I think ur missing something

I m talking refining not compressing
As a high sec miner and producer WITHOUT a POS but with perfect skills and implant the ore u mine will net u ore based on 72.4% at a high sec station
A similar hi sec miner producer with a POS and no perfect skills and NO implant would refine at a 75.3
Math says it s a 2.9%

So it seems we r both wrg
In ur model this guy with a POS is in a corp and he doesn't pay the fuel cost, so right out of the production lines he already have a 2.9 price advantage


Now a null sec miner-producer advantage is 86.8-72.4= 14.4
Is that excessive? Knowing how big the blue doughnut is... Frankly I don't know. I know that null sec production and mining need a helping hand, but is this too much? Let s wait and see

But I feel that the old 100% refine should be attainable without the implant! I've u get 72.4 with max skills and then add the 4% implant. It feels more balanced and fair



When u spoke on veld and pyrite u we're addressing compression, and as I said there is an issue with the ore volume and how many trips one has to take to a POS to compress effectively, u r solution was nice but can't be applied in all cases
I liked the suggestion that mineral can be compressed (tweaking the formula to get the same ratio, taking into consideration the volume reduction of refining) or the remote use of a POS compression array from stations...

Talking about BOTs is useless, high sec say the biggest bots r in null, and vis-versa , we can't prove who is right...

Regarding changes to refining, one thing seems to be missing from the equations.
To get maximum refine now you need to have, refining 5, refining efficiency 5 and XX standings with the Npc Corp whose station equipment you are using.

Post summer it becomes;

StationBase 50%
Reprocessing 5
Reprocessing Efficiency 5
Ore Processing 5
Implant RX-801/2/4 4%

Corp standings ? --- missing link or just no longer relevant ?
Net Yield 72.36%

yeah bots will never be able to outcompete human beings in the complex task of warping a freighter to a pos a bazillion times