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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Scaugh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1621 - 2014-03-28 14:13:59 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

1. NPC compression is bot heaven!

yeah bots will never be able to outcompete human beings in the complex task of warping a freighter to a pos a bazillion times



Just buy your ores compressed.. There you go, a bazillion less JF warps required by you.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1622 - 2014-03-28 14:21:59 UTC
Scaugh wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

1. NPC compression is bot heaven!

yeah bots will never be able to outcompete human beings in the complex task of warping a freighter to a pos a bazillion times



Just buy your ores compressed.. There you go, a bazillion less JF warps required by you.

Someone has to do it, and the task is soulless and unrewarding. It would be better for 75% of the use cases for compression for it to be available as a station service. The POS module would still be used by miners on the fringes of the galaxy (and in wormholes.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#1623 - 2014-03-28 15:24:23 UTC
So... almost 70 pages of questions, speculation, arguments and general uncertainty yet, not a single dev response. For such a major change to a fundamental part of the game one would think that CCP would want to get in here and clear things up.

Come on CCP! I understand you're busy but you opened a thread asking for feedback then apparently vanish for a week? We players would appreciate some feedback and answers as well.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1624 - 2014-03-28 15:48:00 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
So... almost 70 pages of questions, speculation, arguments and general uncertainty yet, not a single dev response. For such a major change to a fundamental part of the game one would think that CCP would want to get in here and clear things up.

Come on CCP! I understand you're busy but you opened a thread asking for feedback then apparently vanish for a week? We players would appreciate some feedback and answers as well.


The null sec caretels have given all the information that they want to give.
The numbers are all there.
High sec is getting hammered, low sec is getting hammered to a slightly lesser degree, wormholes do well, null sec gets a ridiculously massive buff.

Low skill players are crushed, null sec will be attracting high skill industrialists.
Go read the post by the chief architect of this disaster over at the failed lawyer's website.
He had a post prepared that breaks it down nicely, specifically how much null sec gains with this.

Oh, and BTW, given he is on the CSM, you can treat his statement as fact about this just being the first "big change" for June.
We are just seeing now is just another step of many of the complete degradation of high sec into a wasteland.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1625 - 2014-03-28 16:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
CRNA wrote:
Can someone help me out with one thing here please (either through PM or post)?

I'm trying to see how this will affect 0.0 miners in a simplified version. It sounds like they've increased mineral/topes composition of ore/ice to balance the lost minerals. I'm trying to figure where it will make sense to refine now - and if alliances need to upgrade refineries more so than they have now.

Assuming max skills and implants (which I have) - can someone break down how many minerals you'll get in comparison to now? Before you jump and say it was already done, what I'm confused about is the fully upgraded Minmatar outpost, as it sounds like you'll get extra minerals/topes refining in one of those vs other tiers of Minmatar upgrades, and compared to other 0.0 stations with no upgrades/maxed upgrades

What I'm basically after is trying to understand - what type of 0.0 station will it make sense to refine in after this patch - and how worth it is to upgrade various stations.

If someone can break this down for me, I'd really appreciate it - because at this point I'm still very confused.

Also, do people agree in general that it seems like it'll be better for 0.0 miners to sell compressed ore in Jita vs straight minerals? If so, my original question is intended to figure out the best place to build mineral intensive projects.

Thanks!




At a 50% equipment refinery with max skills and 4% implant, you will get almost exactly the same yield as what is currently a perfect refining rate.

Post change, if you refine at any structure with greater than 50% equipment and the same skills/implants, you will get more than what is currently perfect refining. The POS Refining Arrays are set at 52/54% and assume perfect skills. But it costs isk/fuel and effort to run a POS.

So its up to you to decide if you want to go through the effort of refining at a POS should a well-upgraded refinery station not be available. But if you intend to ever move the stuff, compress it, with the only exception being Compressed Mercoxit ore. I don't care to haul compressed ore that is 100 times greater in volume than it's mineral content.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1626 - 2014-03-28 16:25:22 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

The null sec caretels

"Caretels" is a great word. We collude because we care about you, the Eve: Online player.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1627 - 2014-03-28 17:42:19 UTC
Having compression available in stations would completely kill the Compression Array in all of hisec due to the prevalence of stations.

Even if CCP implemented compression taxes in a station as a way to give the array an edge over station equipment, good luck balancing fractions of a percent of 100 units of raw ore or 1 unit of compressed ore. Suppose they could just tax it with isk.

Having compression only available in hisec through the Compression Array will stimulate the PI industry through POS and Compression Array sales, as well as the ice industry through increased fuel demands. Putting compression in stations will completely kill all of that market and industrial activity.

The way things will likely work after the change is simple and easy for everyone.


  1. Miner mines ore.
  2. Hauler takes ore to POS, compresses it, drops it in corp hanger, because 0 skills required.
  3. Hauler moves compressed ore to market.
  4. Manufacturer buys compressed ore.
  5. Manufacturer moves it to refinery facility and turns it into minerals.
  6. Manufacturer makes things.
  7. Manufacturer sells things.
  8. Profit. (hopefully)


Large-scale manufacturing will be even easier for producers because they won't have to go through the additional steps of building intermediate modules or even compressing ore. They can literally just click on market and get bacon.

These changes as they are proposed will also kick-start the compressed ore market, which is completely dead.

Furthermore, I find the fact that CCP is completely redesigning existing POS modules to be very encouraging. It means they are not just looking at legacy POS code, but are actually doing something about it.

Giving more benefits to hisec stations is the last thing Eve-O industry needs.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1628 - 2014-03-28 17:50:19 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Having compression available in stations would completely kill the Compression Array in all of hisec due to the prevalence of stations.

So, should we kill off Corporate Hangar Arrays due to the prevalence of highsec stations with unlimited storage?

This is a completely spurious argument. POS modules exist to support life on the fringes, not replace it. Meanwhile, the sheer importance of the availability of compressed ore demands that the barrier to entry for compression be as low as possible.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1629 - 2014-03-28 18:10:05 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Having compression available in stations would completely kill the Compression Array in all of hisec due to the prevalence of stations.

Even if CCP implemented compression taxes in a station as a way to give the array an edge over station equipment, good luck balancing fractions of a percent of 100 units of raw ore or 1 unit of compressed ore. Suppose they could just tax it with isk.

Having compression only available in hisec through the Compression Array will stimulate the PI industry through POS and Compression Array sales, as well as the ice industry through increased fuel demands. Putting compression in stations will completely kill all of that market and industrial activity.

The way things will likely work after the change is simple and easy for everyone.


  1. Miner mines ore.
  2. Hauler takes ore to POS, compresses it, drops it in corp hanger, because 0 skills required.
  3. Hauler moves compressed ore to market.
  4. Manufacturer buys compressed ore.
  5. Manufacturer moves it to refinery facility and turns it into minerals.
  6. Manufacturer makes things.
  7. Manufacturer sells things.
  8. Profit. (hopefully)


Large-scale manufacturing will be even easier for producers because they won't have to go through the additional steps of building intermediate modules or even compressing ore. They can literally just click on market and get bacon.

These changes as they are proposed will also kick-start the compressed ore market, which is completely dead.

Furthermore, I find the fact that CCP is completely redesigning existing POS modules to be very encouraging. It means they are not just looking at legacy POS code, but are actually doing something about it.

Giving more benefits to hisec stations is the last thing Eve-O industry needs.


I proposed to acess POS compressing arrays from station , like current research array in order to alleviate the ungodly number of ore freighter trips needed to transport the ore to the POS
Or introduce mineral compression , so u refine at a POS or station and have a much smaller volume to transport to POS for compressing (tweaking the compression numbers in a way that refine plus mineral compression would equale ore compression

I just tossing ideas out, so e I heard in this thread

But I m willing to listen to ur ideas
Maru Sha
The Department of Justice
#1630 - 2014-03-29 00:24:54 UTC
Maybe at the same time you could fix the "bug" I reported here.?
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1631 - 2014-03-29 06:21:12 UTC
"It prevents us from giving low and null-security facilities some advantage: Player-built stations in null security space can only be, at their very best, equivalent with NPC stations that are spread all across New Eden."

Stopped reading right there, what was the point? Another nerf to high sec, woohoo, wooop, wooop. Ugh

I guess the nullsec bwaaaanbulance is still making the rounds......
SpacePhenix
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#1632 - 2014-03-29 08:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: SpacePhenix
Maybe I’m a cheap.. But I feel like I have to make a little comment on this nerf...
First off all I can read is hurt new players and take away something from the eve players that have used a lot of time and effort into industry. Why in universe would you make it 10 -20 times harder for a new player to play eve...
I like some of the changes I do.... Something needed to be done with the module mineral compression...

Compression ore BPO refunded at market price value... Are u kidding me!!... The value of the blueprints is not the value of the marked price after you have spent time and POS fuel on researching them.. The time EVE players have spent on researching them needs to be refunded as well + something really nice for the hazard of researching 240 blueprints....

As someone have mentioned if your nerfing module reprocessing this mucth, it will have a huge impact of the income of doing NPC missions. Either you need to add more of the sellable high value (Meta lvl4) in loot or you need to add more LP points/ mission reward/bounty/standing increase.... Couse with this nerf your basically cutting mission running income in half.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1633 - 2014-03-29 08:58:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Maru Sha wrote:
Maybe at the same time you could fix the "bug" I reported here.?
Some further details on that:
There are Stations with both services, that have a base yield of 50 %, like Vylade VII - Moon 3 - Astral Mining Inc. Refinery. 109 Stations in total have both services and 50% base yield. Ironically, their operationName (added to the end of the Station's name) is "Refinery" - with one exception where the operationName is "Factory", Kinakka III - Lai Dai Corporation Factory.
It's more like: If a station has a Reprocessing plant only, base yield is 50 %. If it additionaly has Refinery service, base yield is one of (25,30,32,35,40,50)%. There are no stations with only the Refinery Service.
Let's hope that this
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We will rename all instances of “refining” into “reprocessing”. That includes changing skill names to Reprocessing, Reprocessing Efficiency, renaming the station service as a whole and all its references in the game.
will resolve this.

Edit: You can research further when you get yourself a copy of this quick hack Google Sheet. It contains all NPC Stations with their operationName and base yield. Refinery and Reprocessing Plant services are an individual entry. If a station has both services, column "Both?" says so.

NPEISDRIP

Master Flakattack
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1634 - 2014-03-29 12:49:05 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Having compression available in stations would completely kill the Compression Array in all of hisec due to the prevalence of stations.

Even if CCP implemented compression taxes in a station as a way to give the array an edge over station equipment, good luck balancing fractions of a percent of 100 units of raw ore or 1 unit of compressed ore. Suppose they could just tax it with isk.

Having compression only available in hisec through the Compression Array will stimulate the PI industry through POS and Compression Array sales, as well as the ice industry through increased fuel demands. Putting compression in stations will completely kill all of that market and industrial activity.

Furthermore, I find the fact that CCP is completely redesigning existing POS modules to be very encouraging. It means they are not just looking at legacy POS code, but are actually doing something about it.

Giving more benefits to hisec stations is the last thing Eve-O industry needs.

All you do by putting better refines and compression strictly on POS' is create a massive barrier to entry. Anyone without the resources to run a POS is stuck selling one of two sub-par products:


  1. Ore
    • Uncompressed ore has a massive volume, making it difficult to move around
    • The cost of the intermediate step of POS compression will be uploaded to the miner
    • Large-scale industrialists save no time or money

  2. Minerals
    • Refining ore will produce less minerals and less isk for the miner
    • Owning and operating the refining array, which helps solve this problem, has a massive running cost of its own. It doesn't pay out.



We know these changes are going through, so let's make it as easy on both hi and null as possible: let those who can't effectively refine compress and industry might actually see improvement. Force compression into POS arrays and things are going to slow down quite a bit.
Soldarius wrote:

Large-scale manufacturing will be even easier for producers because they won't have to go through the additional steps of building intermediate modules or even compressing ore. They can literally just click on market and get bacon.

These changes as they are proposed will also kick-start the compressed ore market, which is completely dead.

These statements support station compression. Do you even know what you're arguing?
Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#1635 - 2014-03-29 13:52:07 UTC
Can someone better at math than I break down some numbers for me. Currently what is the cost for running a small pos in hi sec (fuel per month) and what would be the gain on refining vs station refining after the update with a character with perfect refining skills. I am not being lazy on running numbers, I just have a mental block when doing math Roll
Inspiration
#1636 - 2014-03-29 13:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
SpacePhenix wrote:
Maybe I’m a cheap.. But I feel like I have to make a little comment on this nerf...
First off all I can read is hurt new players and take away something from the eve players that have used a lot of time and effort into industry. Why in universe would you make it 10 -20 times harder for a new player to play eve...
I like some of the changes I do.... Something needed to be done with the module mineral compression...

Compression ore BPO refunded at market price value... Are u kidding me!!... The value of the blueprints is not the value of the marked price after you have spent time and POS fuel on researching them.. The time EVE players have spent on researching them needs to be refunded as well + something really nice for the hazard of researching 240 blueprints....

As someone have mentioned if your nerfing module reprocessing this mucth, it will have a huge impact of the income of doing NPC missions. Either you need to add more of the sellable high value (Meta lvl4) in loot or you need to add more LP points/ mission reward/bounty/standing increase.... Couse with this nerf your basically cutting mission running income in half.


In the past I have been hit by T2 module material composition and high end moon goo stuff changes. Loosing like 40b in the process due to stockpiles suddenly being hammered in value, which is a lot even to the majority of older players. With this change only my compression BPO collection take a value hit.

But i don't mind!

Take it form me, it happens from time to time in order to make the game better. Each change is bound to result in winners and loosers and if you are all in on something, that can make you a very large winner or a very large looser. There is no reason to fight it, but every reason to learn and adapt.

I think people that crying about income loss etc, are exactly the people that need this change the most. They are getting pulled out of that single operating mode of daily routines and have a moment to reflect and to see what else is out there. Find new things and new ways of doing existing things. You might discover that what you think was smart game play before, actually wasn't and be better for it.

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1637 - 2014-03-29 14:21:51 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

1. NPC compression is bot heaven!

yeah bots will never be able to outcompete human beings in the complex task of warping a freighter to a pos a bazillion times

You could slow it down though by making the array take level 4 skills to compress, just like the rorqual does. Atleast then anyone breaking the rules is risking a character that would take monthes to replace.
Inspiration
#1638 - 2014-03-29 14:33:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Master Flakattack wrote:
All you do by putting better refines and compression strictly on POS' is create a massive barrier to entry. Anyone without the resources to run a POS is stuck selling one of two sub-par products:


  1. Ore
    • Uncompressed ore has a massive volume, making it difficult to move around
    • The cost of the intermediate step of POS compression will be uploaded to the miner
    • Large-scale industrialists save no time or money

  2. Minerals
    • Refining ore will produce less minerals and less isk for the miner
    • Owning and operating the refining array, which helps solve this problem, has a massive running cost of its own. It doesn't pay out.



We know these changes are going through, so let's make it as easy on both hi and null as possible: let those who can't effectively refine compress and industry might actually see improvement. Force compression into POS arrays and things are going to slow down quite a bit.


Miners will be the group of players that do the compression, not in the least as it reduces the time they currently waste on hauling the ore to a station in the first place. At the same time they deliver a more valuable product to their customers.

Players that mine, but are unwilling to join a group or co-operate with others that have POS access are only making their own life hard. You cannot blame that on the changes. In fact, it makes it all the more obvious that joining a corporation is a good thing to do. In a sense it helps new players get into shape and action much sooner then otherwise would be the case.


Master Flakattack wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

Large-scale manufacturing will be even easier for producers because they won't have to go through the additional steps of building intermediate modules or even compressing ore. They can literally just click on market and get bacon.

These changes as they are proposed will also kick-start the compressed ore market, which is completely dead.

These statements support station compression. Do you even know what you're arguing?


Maybe you can elaborate why you see those statements as a reason to introduce station compression?

We had mineral compression trough certain modules and ammunition, enabled by of 100% refining and 100% recycling. Those items were never intended to be used for compression, but null did rely on them to get their low end minerals.

Now we get ORE compression which is more versatile, takes no BPO research and takes up no manufacturing slots. It also lowers hauling sores of miners at the same time and empowers WH population to handle the ore volumes that are out there.

There is an obvious need for compression, but null and WH populations were the ones that rely on it. High sec manufacturing cannot afford to pay the 15-20% premium of compressed modules to acquire minerals. They haul uncompressed minerals in staggering volumes (trit, pyerite and some mex).

Not only the previous beneficiaries of compression now have a proper solution instead of an artifact of broken mechanics. But also miners and high sec producers get a gain. With miners obviously wanting to have theirs...most of them will compress and with it the majority of ore will exist on market in that form.

Since a single system does not complain much ore, let alone populated ones that are hammered each day, miners will fan out...and thanks to ore compression at a pos they can. Operating in station less systems far from hubs is no longer out of reach. This also brings the benefit of fresh larger rocks and thus increase their mining effectiveness.

All this is relevant because with the majority of ore already having a better solution for compression then stations would offer, there really is no need to focus on edge cases with unwanted side-effects. Side effects such as giving new players the idea that operating solo is a reasonable path to follow. Drawing beginners out of starter systems as soon as possible is good! Good is also to not making practical bottling less risky by not having to deal with POS + possible wars.

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1639 - 2014-03-29 14:43:11 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

1. NPC compression is bot heaven!

yeah bots will never be able to outcompete human beings in the complex task of warping a freighter to a pos a bazillion times

You could slow it down though by making the array take level 4 skills to compress, just like the rorqual does. Atleast then anyone breaking the rules is risking a character that would take monthes to replace.


Such a thing does actually make sense to me. A simple prerequisite to get the full benefits of operating at a pos. The current pos code should be able to handle this with little work. There are prerequisites for other structures too IIRC.

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1640 - 2014-03-29 15:08:49 UTC
Just manufacture in null, i may have a corp suggestion :)

Its fun, I run the whole process there getting minerals, then making stuff.

The sov upgrades help to.