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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Kaimar Redcloud
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#1561 - 2014-03-26 03:06:11 UTC
Raquel Smith wrote:
Pretty miserable changes to Scrapmetal Processing.

^^^^This^^^^
Why did I waste my time training it? I hate mining so I rat and repro the loot for my mins to build with. Now I have to buy a POS and monthly fuel costs, a refining array and a jump clone with refining implants just to get CLOSE to what I'm getting now.

So much for the "New Player Experince". I hope they like their noob ships. They're going to be in them a looooong time now. Ship prices are gonna jump again. I can see 400mil Domis by the end of the second week after the expansion. Great for the indy's,not so great for the new people.

By the way CCP, if everything is better in low/null, why are your offices in Iceland and the U.S. (.9 or 1.0 equiv) and not in Syria (.3) or Somalia (0.0). Oh yeah, cuz it doesn't work that way. Corps put their best stuff in the safest places. Empire refining should be better than low/null. Nullsec alliances that pay for the upgrades, should get rewarded with close to empire refining abilities. Empire shouldn't be struggling to match null. BTW I live in sov null before I hear the carebear comments. Just waiting for a hiring freeze to thaw.


Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1562 - 2014-03-26 03:07:00 UTC
tom trade valine wrote:
You know I swear I heard the devs tell us awhile back that when they re worked the ice belts it would make things better too, and that it was so null sec corps would want to ice mine more and make it more reasonable for prices cause no they null sec alliance would be able to mine there own ice easier. I really start to wonder if they even play this game cause when they reworked the ice belts all it did was drive the prices of ice and ice products up, for things that need ice even fuel blocks and jump fuel. So now when the rework the refining this will drive the prices off all ores up cause the high sec miners will not get as good refine and in order to get perfect refine we need to buy a implant that means you have planned to break something that is working fine. Well ccp is driving itself to ruin cause instead of fixing things they are damaging them and with no real content for the basic player IE new mission, and storylines the game is losing its luster and they have had less subscriptions then normal and more players seem to be leaving then staying. maybe they need to leave the reprocessing they way it is and work on something that is really broken

So, you thought a net REDUCTION in total ice availability would decrease prices somehow? That's a gas.

Like, if a CCP person said that on the forums, please link the post so we can laugh at him/her together.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1563 - 2014-03-26 03:09:24 UTC
Kaimar Redcloud wrote:
Raquel Smith wrote:
Pretty miserable changes to Scrapmetal Processing.

^^^^This^^^^
Why did I waste my time training it? I hate mining so I rat and repro the loot for my mins to build with. Now I have to buy a POS and monthly fuel costs, a refining array and a jump clone with refining implants just to get CLOSE to what I'm getting now.

So much for the "New Player Experince". I hope they like their noob ships. They're going to be in them a looooong time now. Ship prices are gonna jump again. I can see 400mil Domis by the end of the second week after the expansion. Great for the indy's,not so great for the new people.

The amount of minerals from mission loot is infinitesimal. The adjustment, by itself, will do next-to-nothing to ship prices.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1564 - 2014-03-26 03:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Unezka Turigahl
Dramaticus wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
So basically it will never be worth it to reprocess anything? Why have reprocessing at all then?


No your stuff is always worth something. It might be just a little bit more difficult to convert that value directly into minerals via reprocessing.


Well you can only get a maximum of 75% of minerals back out of anything player-made. So anything that can be made by the players is better sold on the market than reprocessed.

That leaves meta items, many of which are more valuable than the minerals they are made of because they are useful in-demand items. Better off saving those up and selling them on the market.

What exactly will people reprocess? I guess only useless stuff that can't be sold quickly. Like non-anti matter hybrid ammo. Worth the time to train up the skills or babysit a POS?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1565 - 2014-03-26 05:12:42 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Having outposts being more efficient at refining than POSes violates the principles of interaction (you can't negatively interact with an outpost apart from reinforcing it: there's no risk of loss) and entitlement.

You are aware that outposts can be conquered, right? If you don't like that an outpost has better reprocessing rates than your pos, take it for yourself.


And if someone captures your outpost, what happens to your materials? Nothing. You just fly them away once the invaders have gotten bored of bubbling the station.

Contrast this to a POS which will be utterly destroyed. Your materials will be gone, and you won't be able to simply return to the POS after the invaders have calmed down in order to rescue the goods you left behind.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1566 - 2014-03-26 07:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Querns wrote:
Kaimar Redcloud wrote:
Raquel Smith wrote:
Pretty miserable changes to Scrapmetal Processing.

^^^^This^^^^
Why did I waste my time training it? I hate mining so I rat and repro the loot for my mins to build with. Now I have to buy a POS and monthly fuel costs, a refining array and a jump clone with refining implants just to get CLOSE to what I'm getting now.

So much for the "New Player Experince". I hope they like their noob ships. They're going to be in them a looooong time now. Ship prices are gonna jump again. I can see 400mil Domis by the end of the second week after the expansion. Great for the indy's,not so great for the new people.

The amount of minerals from mission loot is infinitesimal. The adjustment, by itself, will do next-to-nothing to ship prices.


The amount is potentially, but the mission runners who run the missions and harvest a portion of this infinite amount aren't and their numbers is very likely not going to increase with this patch. Which means, in the end there is less minerals in the market until miners have (potentially) caught up, which means that ship prices are going to increase inevitably after a while when even more stocks are sold off. How was this again? "We look past the first week." Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1567 - 2014-03-26 07:54:51 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Querns wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

Having outposts being more efficient at refining than POSes violates the principles of interaction (you can't negatively interact with an outpost apart from reinforcing it: there's no risk of loss) and entitlement.

You are aware that outposts can be conquered, right? If you don't like that an outpost has better reprocessing rates than your pos, take it for yourself.


And if someone captures your outpost, what happens to your materials? Nothing. You just fly them away once the invaders have gotten bored of bubbling the station.

Contrast this to a POS which will be utterly destroyed. Your materials will be gone, and you won't be able to simply return to the POS after the invaders have calmed down in order to rescue the goods you left behind.
Actually, if someone decided to "capture" someone else's outpost, the losers stand to lose a lot more than someone losing a large pos.
"Capturing an Outpost" is a lot different to "Camping an Outpost"
Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1568 - 2014-03-26 09:10:03 UTC
Querns wrote:

No. You'd sell it for 10-20% more than you'd get for selling the minerals at today's prices.

With the changes to refining no-one will be able to pay 10 - 20% more for ore than current mineral prices and make a profit.
EG; At current prices 1 unit of White Glaze (refined) returns me 312,570 isk, add your 10% it needs to sell as ore for 343,820 isk. Do you see that as viable? Do you see it as achievable? I don't, not when the next guy in line (compression and hauling to refinery) needs to make a profit too and possibly the one after him.
By the time the product hits the market, the ore value (in minerals) is just under 375,000 or around 1,850 isk for Nitrogen Isotopes.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Huang Mo
Tianxia Inc
#1569 - 2014-03-26 09:11:30 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.

Or until they create an alt, join the new owners, contract the stuff, and ship it away. Or have a friend do that. Or a spy, or ... there are multiple ways of getting it back and it certainly doesn't have to stay there forever.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1570 - 2014-03-26 09:33:12 UTC
Huang Mo wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.

Or until they create an alt, join the new owners, contract the stuff, and ship it away. Or have a friend do that. Or a spy, or ... there are multiple ways of getting it back and it certainly doesn't have to stay there forever.

The refining upgrade alone is worth more than 200 large pos's.. If you have nothing more than personal items invested in your alliance, retrieving your own property may count for something. If your only investment in your alliance is the ability to use their outposts for your own profit, then you possibly have nothing to worry about. As long as you have friends willing to risk getting your stuff out for you.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1571 - 2014-03-26 10:13:44 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.


Or you stay there and ship your stuff out when it's safe to undock.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#1572 - 2014-03-26 10:30:58 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.


Or you stay there and ship your stuff out when it's safe to undock.


yeah coz undocking freighters full of minerals is such a good plan in hostile space where you cant dock back up ^^

If your outpost full of minerals gets taken, you throw them on the market, no one is going to try and save freighter loads of trit lol
Inspiration
#1573 - 2014-03-26 12:41:55 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I think that compression has to be moved into station, and here is why: http://i.imgur.com/OzN40XM.png


Thank you for that. Very informative. It seems freighter pilots are going to be hauling a lot of ore and compressed ore around starting this summer.

So glad my alt is most of the way there now.


One of the purposes of these changes is to get away from the 'lame' un-eve like game play surrounding refining and recycling. More of industry needed to be part of the sandbox and exposed to possibly explosive player to player interaction.

Both the call for better refining in stations then n00bs at a POS and the call for compression at NPC stations fly 100% against this goal. Under all circumstances must ORE and ICE reprocessing at a POS be better then maxed skills doing the same job at an NPC stations, or else it would not work.

Risk aversion has very deep roots in industry.

Besides, I can not see the point you make about compression being required in stations. To consumers of minerals, the producers, only the high volume minerals (trit / pyerite) really require compression. These are likely sold by miners in compressed form, the rest they refine close to Jita at a POS and ship to Jita for maximum margin.

What this system does is improve transport and time to market. For producers there can will be a small hit due to refining the compressed trit and pyrite not being as good as at a POS. But if they are setting up right and have a POS in they production system, they will with a little effort get a little gain instead.

As for transportation to null , refine, transport back schemes....that can work realistically low volume, high value minerals. Thus any trit and pyerite transported to null this way stays there, or comes back as product. Product however requires POS, including yet again the pvp elements and maintenance costs. Costs that in high sec are zero at NPC stations.

As for the few that say, not applying skills to POS reprocessing is un-eve like and would be a first. Wrong...remember those new wonderful T2 sentry drones? Well, sad to tell you, but your max specialized racial specific drone skills do nothing for them! Yet still they players that trained straight to them will out damage heavy drone users with much more skills.

I am serious!

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1574 - 2014-03-26 12:50:46 UTC
Quote:

Risk aversion has very deep roots in industry.


Does that surprise you? In contrast to PVPers, industrialists run constantly in danger of losing twice or three times if they are attacked: The money for mineral investments/the produced goods, the ship they are transporting the minerals/goods with, the POS they are producing stuff with or refine at and the invested time. Or take freighter pilots: they lose the freighter, the reward, the time and the collateral if they get ganked, all for a meager maybe 10M/hour.
Whereas PVPers lose their ship when they engage in non-consensual PVP or are outclassed by other PVPers, plus they lose bounty or killrights, which make them less of a popular target. So, the loss potential is 3 or 4 times as high as that of a PVPer. I don't see balance here, but that's just my opinion. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Inspiration
#1575 - 2014-03-26 12:54:50 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Having an outpost with better refining capability than a POS is rather offensive.

First, this goes against the idea of "farms and fields" — the point of which is to allow aggressors to deny utility without having to wholesale invade the entire region. Reinforcing a POS is easier for small fleets than reinforcing an outpost.

Second, a POS can be destroyed, looted, and sold for parts & scrap value. Thus outposts violate the much-vaunted "risk versus reward" balance: the outpost has precisely 0 chance of loss since it cannot be destroyed. The only risk to a business running from an outpost is temporary interruption of production.

Outposts already have the advantage of more assembly lines, greater storage capacity and ability to be the pickup or delivery end of a courier contract. They don't need any more advantages.

I can't wait to see the changes CCP has in mind for manufacturing and other activity lines. I'll take this opportunity to remind CCP of the principles of game design espoused by CCP Soundwave:

  1. No game should be more complex than it absolutely needs to be to meet its goals.
  2. A good feature can be based on positive or negative player interaction.
  3. Other players will always be more interesting, for longer, than designed experiences.
  4. Every system should affect, and be affected by, the wider world of the game.
  5. Here are the tools, do something cool with them.
  6. The social experience is more important than practical system balance; the interaction between winners and losers is more interesting than mechanical equality.
  7. Interactions should be about reaching and touching, more than reading numbers.
  8. Things in the world need to make sense.
  9. Players are not entitled to success. There should be an achievement mountain, with players able to find their level and strive to be better.


Having outposts being more efficient at refining than POSes violates the principles of interaction (you can't negatively interact with an outpost apart from reinforcing it: there's no risk of loss) and entitlement.

Running an outpost is only a matter of ISK. They don't consume fuel, there's no balancing of which modules to put online given the constraints of PG and CPU, and there's no risk of someone stealing all your stuff.

Running a POS is a much more interactive proposition. You have to scale that achievement mountain. You need to combine efforts with other players or go mad in the meantime. There is a real risk that your investment in time and ISK will be destroyed by other players. There is the risk that you could be betrayed by your corp mates who steal from the POS or even simply "forget" to fuel it.

The only smelting advantage should be based on a POS module that can only be anchored in 0.4 and below. There should not be an additional mechanical advantage given to an indestructible structure which requires no maintenance. If outposts were to become destructible and required fuel to maintain, I'd back down on this complaint a little: but I'd still want the efficiency advantage to be held by POSes simply because the poor suckers running POSes need some reward for their self-flagellation.

POSes make sense. Outposts do not.


I honestly AGREE with all of this, which is rare.

I am serious!

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1576 - 2014-03-26 13:02:25 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I think that compression has to be moved into station, and here is why: http://i.imgur.com/OzN40XM.png


Thank you for that. Very informative. It seems freighter pilots are going to be hauling a lot of ore and compressed ore around starting this summer.

So glad my alt is most of the way there now.


One of the purposes of these changes is to get away from the 'lame' un-eve like game play surrounding refining and recycling. More of industry needed to be part of the sandbox and exposed to possibly explosive player to player interaction.

Both the call for better refining in stations then n00bs at a POS and the call for compression at NPC stations fly 100% against this goal. Under all circumstances must ORE and ICE reprocessing at a POS be better then maxed skills doing the same job at an NPC stations, or else it would not work.

Risk aversion has very deep roots in industry.

Besides, I can not see the point you make about compression being required in stations. To consumers of minerals, the producers, only the high volume minerals (trit / pyerite) really require compression. These are likely sold by miners in compressed form, the rest they refine close to Jita at a POS and ship to Jita for maximum margin.

What this system does is improve transport and time to market. For producers there can will be a small hit due to refining the compressed trit and pyrite not being as good as at a POS. But if they are setting up right and have a POS in they production system, they will with a little effort get a little gain instead.

As for transportation to null , refine, transport back schemes....that can work realistically low volume, high value minerals. Thus any trit and pyerite transported to null this way stays there, or comes back as product. Product however requires POS, including yet again the pvp elements and maintenance costs. Costs that in high sec are zero at NPC stations.

As for the few that say, not applying skills to POS reprocessing is un-eve like and would be a first. Wrong...remember those new wonderful T2 sentry drones? Well, sad to tell you, but your max specialized racial specific drone skills do nothing for them! Yet still they players that trained straight to them will out damage heavy drone users with much more skills.



To make the analogy appropriate u need a toon with low skills using sentry drones vs a high skill char using them... Someone once said comparing oranges to apples was not right!

Second I agree that POS should have an advantage to station, we just disagree on skills affecting POS refining yield.

Third, someone brought the question of compressing ore at a POS and the logistic difficulties, ie for one freighter worth of compressed ore u ll need to transport a staggering 28+ frieghter loads to ur POS.... What s ur take on that?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1577 - 2014-03-26 13:04:54 UTC
Firvain wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.


Or you stay there and ship your stuff out when it's safe to undock.


yeah coz undocking freighters full of minerals is such a good plan in hostile space where you cant dock back up ^^

If your outpost full of minerals gets taken, you throw them on the market, no one is going to try and save freighter loads of trit lol


Market, contracts, whatever. The stuff in the outpost isn't lost, though it may be difficult to access. You can just conquer the outpost back and pick up where you left off. The same is not true for a POS: once it's blown up, it's gone.
Inspiration
#1578 - 2014-03-26 13:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Quote:

Risk aversion has very deep roots in industry.


Does that surprise you? In contrast to PVPers, industrialists run constantly in danger of losing twice or three times if they are attacked: The money for mineral investments/the produced goods, the ship they are transporting the minerals/goods with, the POS they are producing stuff with or refine at and the invested time. Or take freighter pilots: they lose the freighter, the reward, the time and the collateral if they get ganked, all for a meager maybe 10M/hour.
Whereas PVPers lose their ship when they engage in non-consensual PVP or are outclassed by other PVPers, plus they lose bounty or killrights, which make them less of a popular target. So, the loss potential is 3 or 4 times as high as that of a PVPer. I don't see balance here, but that's just my opinion. Roll


It is not risk they themselves have to take on if they accept a 1% like hit in production cost. Transportation becomes cheaper, the silly markup of like 15% for compressed minerals in the form of modules will be gone (replaced by a small hit on refining compressed velt and scordite, likely sourced directly from miners.

Yet with these net IMPROVEMENT for producers and miners alike, some act as if the world is turning against them because the loose maybe 1% or something, and are neglecting the gains.

And transportation risk can be outsourced...at a price which will be lower now then ever before. The pro's and con's are much more subtle then the complainers in this thread set out to make others believe.

I am serious!

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1579 - 2014-03-26 13:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Inspiration wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Quote:

Risk aversion has very deep roots in industry.


Does that surprise you? In contrast to PVPers, industrialists run constantly in danger of losing twice or three times if they are attacked: The money for mineral investments/the produced goods, the ship they are transporting the minerals/goods with, the POS they are producing stuff with or refine at and the invested time. Or take freighter pilots: they lose the freighter, the reward, the time and the collateral if they get ganked, all for a meager maybe 10M/hour.
Whereas PVPers lose their ship when they engage in non-consensual PVP or are outclassed by other PVPers, plus they lose bounty or killrights, which make them less of a popular target. So, the loss potential is 3 or 4 times as high as that of a PVPer. I don't see balance here, but that's just my opinion. Roll


It is not risk they themselves have to take on if they accept a 1% like hit in production cost. Transportation becomes cheaper, the silly markup of like 15% for compressed minerals in the form of modules will be gone (replaced by a small hit on refining compressed velt and scordite, likely sourced directly from miners.

Yet with these net IMPROVEMENT for producers and miners alike, some act as if the world is turning against them because the loose maybe 1% or something, and are neglecting the gains.

And transportation risk can be outsourced...at a price which will be lower now then ever before. The pro's and con's are much more subtle then the complainers in this thread set out to make others believe.


Well, someone has to transport the stuff... right? It's not like we have a magic postbox in EVE. So what is the point of your post in regard to mine? Roll

And you advocate for even less payment for your ridiculous courier contracts? That is just too nice of you.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#1580 - 2014-03-26 13:26:07 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Firvain wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Once an Outpost is Captured by another entity the previous owners have no access to it. Anything they had inside it remains there forever unless they join the group who captured it or can retake it.


Or you stay there and ship your stuff out when it's safe to undock.


yeah coz undocking freighters full of minerals is such a good plan in hostile space where you cant dock back up ^^

If your outpost full of minerals gets taken, you throw them on the market, no one is going to try and save freighter loads of trit lol


Market, contracts, whatever. The stuff in the outpost isn't lost, though it may be difficult to access. You can just conquer the outpost back and pick up where you left off. The same is not true for a POS: once it's blown up, it's gone.


Yeah you can just conquer it back... uhu..