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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Meytal
Doomheim
#1581 - 2014-03-26 13:28:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Quote:
Deadspace and Officer mods should require some pretty exotic parts (WH salvage, anyone?) to build.

This would finally put the last hold-out of useable items into the hands of industrialists, and cause all modules used to be dictated by the mineral index, instead of by the bot-farming index.


Why should it be WH stuff when it's clearly K-space modules? Is there someone trying to make WH even more profitable than they already are? Roll

Because clearly Officer and Deadspace mods are made by the four empires using only materials players have available in K-space. That is why there are so many of them all over the place, and you can't swing a dead catalyst without hitting a dozen Estamel's Invuln mods. Nevermind the fact that pirate factions are known to frequent W-space and use strange and "unknown" technology in their battles against the empires.

Yes this is intended to buff the value of salvage in W-space, the majority of which is near worthless anyway, as a way to boost income in C1-C4 W-space. CCP is already planning to nerf the T3 cruisers into the ground, which will further destroy the market for sleeper salvage. In the Wormhole forums, I'm already calling for a fix to the downtime respawn mechanics bug with regards to capital escalations (the money maker in W-space, and C5-C6 only), and a rebalance for sleeper salvage and manufacturing in general.

Considering the volumes in question, there would be minimal impact on the value of sleeper salvage. But at least it would be something to help cushion the upcoming T3 nerf and related market crash.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
The last sentence will never be able to pass the PVP-ridden CSM and PVP-bondaged CCP devs, never. Industrialists must be kept under the boots of PVPers, not given even more creeping power over them by giving them yet another way to drain money out of poor PVPers' wallets. Roll

Unfortunately, I suspect this may be true. But there is a glimmer of hope, considering that it would mostly be a buff to Nullsec industry -- especially since probably all of the Nullsec coalitions have corps in W-space or agreements with W-space entities.


Mara Rinn wrote:
Market, contracts, whatever. The stuff in the outpost isn't lost, though it may be difficult to access. You can just conquer the outpost back and pick up where you left off. The same is not true for a POS: once it's blown up, it's gone.

Now suggest to them that Outposts be destroyable and really get looks of confusion ;)

Inspiration
#1582 - 2014-03-26 13:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Harah Noud wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
As for the few that say, not applying skills to POS reprocessing is un-eve like and would be a first. Wrong...remember those new wonderful T2 sentry drones? Well, sad to tell you, but your max specialized racial specific drone skills do nothing for them! Yet still they players that trained straight to them will out damage heavy drone users with much more skills.



To make the analogy appropriate u need a toon with low skills using sentry drones vs a high skill char using them... Someone once said comparing oranges to apples was not right!

Second I agree that POS should have an advantage to station, we just disagree on skills affecting POS refining yield.

Third, someone brought the question of compressing ore at a POS and the logistic difficulties, ie for one freighter worth of compressed ore u ll need to transport a staggering 28+ frieghter loads to ur POS.... What s ur take on that?


My point here is that skills becoming irrelevant when new alternatives that achieve the same thing is not new in EVE. The goal in the example being damage application...and not as you presume correlating skills of one of the methods to the damage output. Here the heavy drone is an NPC reprocessing and the Sentry drone is mobile reprocessing at a POS. There is no mismatch in analogy if you look at it like this.

On the second point, i am glad you agree somewhat. If skills are ever to be affect efficiency, then it should be to the upside, not the downside. What I mean by this is that a no skilled user of mobile refining should still outperform a skilled one using an NPC station.

And this is where we might disagree as there have been heated arguments over the fact that an untrained character can get better results using a POS. Proponents of skills affecting mobile refinery seem to argue that their superior skills should negate this advantage of using as POS.

The 3rd point is kind of easy to answer. When I mine with my alts I have a freighter "on the job" with the fleet. Once it is loaded it now jumps 1 or two systems to a station it can later refine and compress to modules with minimal to no loss. With the new system, it in the end becomes much easier for a mining fleet.

With some standing preparations, you can simply anchor a temporary small POS in the system you are mining in. Then the hauler directly moves to it and does compression. After the mining stops, the compressed ore and the pos go back into the hauler. And off you go to where you need to sell or refine.

With this in mind, the proposition of having to haul a lot just to use compression is false. Mining corporations can do the effort and create a sister corporation that owns the POS and hauler(s), while being in fleet to accept the ore. This gives solid control and keeps the miners themselves safe from a war dec. The one thing at risk from a war-dec, is the corporation doing the POS and hauling.

It is not 100% safe, but it requires some effort and organisation to get close. Heavily industrialized systems might not be available for mining like this, but many more will become available and have better ore supplies anyway. The scale of logistics of moving all that ore to point of sale or reprocessing is now very much reduced thanks to on the spot compression the changes make available.

In the end the availability of POS based compression will bring us less hauling, not more!

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1583 - 2014-03-26 13:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

It is not risk they themselves have to take on if they accept a 1% like hit in production cost. Transportation becomes cheaper, the silly markup of like 15% for compressed minerals in the form of modules will be gone (replaced by a small hit on refining compressed velt and scordite, likely sourced directly from miners.

Yet with these net IMPROVEMENT for producers and miners alike, some act as if the world is turning against them because the loose maybe 1% or something, and are neglecting the gains.

And transportation risk can be outsourced...at a price which will be lower now then ever before. The pro's and con's are much more subtle then the complainers in this thread set out to make others believe.


Well, someone has to transport the stuff... right? It's not like we have a magic postbox in EVE. So what is the point of your post in regard to mine? Roll

And you advocate for even less payment for your ridiculous courier contracts? That is just too nice of you.


Isn't that obvious?
Less volume = less hauling = less risk and less pre-requisites = less costs.

A small scale producer can now do everything in a blockade runner and in less time!

I am serious!

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1584 - 2014-03-26 14:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Inspiration wrote:

Isn't that obvious?
Less volume = less hauling = less risk and less pre-requisites = less costs.

A small scale producer can now do everything in a blockade runner and in less time!


Let me fix this for you: Less volume == more stuff in your ship == more value in your ship == more risk and prerequisites == potentially more cost

If I go with your other proposal: a POS is 2k m³ and a Refining and/or Compression module is very likely to be 4k m³, plus fuel and your Blockade Runner, which is of course fitted for tank and not cargo space, is full... Which means a small scale producer can still not do everything, let alone more, and can do it only in more time.

There you go.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1585 - 2014-03-26 15:48:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Market, contracts, whatever. The stuff in the outpost isn't lost, though it may be difficult to access. You can just conquer the outpost back and pick up where you left off. The same is not true for a POS: once it's blown up, it's gone.

this is one of the dumber posts in this thread and that's saying something

the absolutely massive amount of effort it takes to conquer an outpost make this much, much stupider than saying "just remine the minerals you lost in the pos"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Inspiration
#1586 - 2014-03-26 15:53:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

Isn't that obvious?
Less volume = less hauling = less risk and less pre-requisites = less costs.

A small scale producer can now do everything in a blockade runner and in less time!


Let me fix this for you: Less volume == more stuff in your ship == more value in your ship == more risk and prerequisites == potentially more cost

If I go with your other proposal: a POS is 2k m³ and a Refining and/or Compression module is very likely to be 4k m³, plus fuel and your Blockade Runner, which is of course fitted for tank and not cargo space, is full... Which means a small scale producer can still not do everything, let alone more, and can do it only in more time.

There you go.


Your are an artist of twisting words...or just plain ignorant.
A blockader runner is the safest form for of transport an industrialist can use.

A blockade runner uses cloak, speed and hit buffer to be safe, not a silly tank. All rigs and low slots are used for cargo expansion when hauling. Also a blockade runner does not transport POS gear, I never wrote it does, it is a fantasy of your own creation. Which makes your post obsolete really.

Also a small scale producer is NOT a miner, he produces and gets ore and minerals from market. Which thanks to compression a blockade runner can now transport. He just does need good reprocessing skills for compressed veld /scordite and an implant. If he chooses to mine a bit locally (which is not wise), stick to veld and scordite. Easy to get related skills up to level 5 and you need them anyway to exploit the handy compact form of the same ores. Minerals other then tritanium and pyrite are compact enough as it is and do not pose a transport hurdle.

If your situated well, just buying compressed ores in the station you produce might do do trick. You just have to pay slightly more then you do if you buy from Jita and transport yourself.

And do not forget, CCP wants to see specialization and co-operation in the manufacturing chain. Not a lone dweller trying to do everything himself inefficiently and then cry about it on forums that it is unfair he is small and they are big!

I am serious!

Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#1587 - 2014-03-26 15:59:19 UTC
I'm still personally leaning towards the suggestion from about 40 pages ago.

Since Meta1-Meta4 is only from ratting/missions and not player made, let those refine for something around 90% of what they currently refine to, with max skills. They're hardly a huge impact on the market for mineral compression, and it'll help new players and people who still like to run missions.

For Meta0 / T2 reprocessing, use the new rules as proposed with their cap in the low 60% range.

The above leads to major changes in compression as intended, without destroying some people's income streams/business models.

All in all though, I really need to see their vision of fixing T1 hull manufacturing, because the "extra minerals" does nothing but block entry into that realm for newer players, all because CCP is afraid of letting bittervets reprocess the 3000 rifter hulls because they'd get "too rich" getting those minerals back.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1588 - 2014-03-26 16:02:18 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

One of the purposes of these changes is to get away from the 'lame' un-eve like game play surrounding refining and recycling. More of industry needed to be part of the sandbox and exposed to possibly explosive player to player interaction.

And it fails. A freighter going to a pos from a station and back, in highsec, is invulnerable. That's why this should be a station activity: because putting it in a pos adds a gigantic amount of human misery that has no benefit. You can't gank the freighter because he just docks up if he's agressed. You can't drag bubble or anything in highsec that would let you catch someone freightering. You can't blow up the pos for profit because compression is instant: the freighter just mashes it then returns with the compressed ore.

I am all for situations that create more possibility for human interaction. POS compression does not. It just adds pointless busywork that does not create more human interaction. It can't even create human interaction by subcontracting: you must do it yourself because you can't subcontract hauling to a POS.

All of this was explained in my post.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1589 - 2014-03-26 16:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Inspiration wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

Isn't that obvious?
Less volume = less hauling = less risk and less pre-requisites = less costs.

A small scale producer can now do everything in a blockade runner and in less time!


Let me fix this for you: Less volume == more stuff in your ship == more value in your ship == more risk and prerequisites == potentially more cost

If I go with your other proposal: a POS is 2k m³ and a Refining and/or Compression module is very likely to be 4k m³, plus fuel and your Blockade Runner, which is of course fitted for tank and not cargo space, is full... Which means a small scale producer can still not do everything, let alone more, and can do it only in more time.

There you go.


Your are an artist of twisting words...or just plain ignorant.
A blockader runner is the safest form for of transport an industrialist can use.

A blockade runner uses cloak, speed and hit buffer to be safe, not a silly tank. All rigs and low slots are used for cargo expansion when hauling. Also a blockade runner does not transport POS gear, I never wrote it does, it is a fantasy of your own creation. Which makes your post obsolete really.

Also a small scale producer is NOT a miner, he produces and gets ore and minerals from market. Which thanks to compression a blockade runner can now transport. He just does need good reprocessing skills for compressed veld /scordite and an implant. If he chooses to mine a bit locally (which is not wise), stick to veld and scordite. Easy to get related skills up to level 5 and you need them anyway to exploit the handy compact form of the same ores. Minerals other then tritanium and pyrite are compact enough as it is and do not pose a transport hurdle.

If your situated well, just buying compressed ores in the station you produce might do do trick. You just have to pay slightly more then you do if you buy from Jita and transport yourself.

And do not forget, CCP wants to see specialization and co-operation in the manufacturing chain. Not a lone dweller trying to do everything himself inefficiently and then cry about it on forums that it is unfair he is small and they are big!


I'm not sure why people constantly call me ignorant or accuse me of twisting words. I'm just portraying realities in EVE, that don't fit into your utopias. May I quote you with the POS part here:

Inspiration in #1582 wrote:
With some standing preparations, you can simply anchor a temporary small POS in the system you are mining in. Then the hauler directly moves to it and does compression. After the mining stops, the compressed ore and the pos go back into the hauler. And off you go to where you need to sell or refine.


Roll You need that POS as well, if you want to reprocess with the greatest possible results, even if it is only Veld and Scord. And popular production/mining systems have almost always all slots filled, which means you need to travel around and take your stuff with you, so you need to transport that stuff around.
Blockade Runners are certainly safe means to transport things around, but they are by no means infallible or invincible and it only needs 2 Tornados to ruin your day, which brings me back to my original post, from which you diverted the topic so elegantly.

You are also ignoring realities when you say that people should just buy locally on the production plant, because that means you almost always produce at costs above the market price and thus with a loss, which is not the point of this profession - as far as I know. And this become particularly more severe when people, who have access to minerals even cheaper than buy order price, dump their items on the market and can easily undercut you all the time. There are no ISK to waste to more expensive minerals if you want to produce competitively and profitable.

Cooperation is all nice and dandy, but with the Roles and Titles management of corps, among other things, this is more of a deterrent than an encouragement to opt for more cooperation between players - in a field that gives so little reward back to the players who actually do take on the task.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Inspiration
#1590 - 2014-03-26 16:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

Isn't that obvious?
Less volume = less hauling = less risk and less pre-requisites = less costs.

A small scale producer can now do everything in a blockade runner and in less time!


Let me fix this for you: Less volume == more stuff in your ship == more value in your ship == more risk and prerequisites == potentially more cost

If I go with your other proposal: a POS is 2k m³ and a Refining and/or Compression module is very likely to be 4k m³, plus fuel and your Blockade Runner, which is of course fitted for tank and not cargo space, is full... Which means a small scale producer can still not do everything, let alone more, and can do it only in more time.

There you go.


Your are an artist of twisting words...or just plain ignorant.
A blockader runner is the safest form for of transport an industrialist can use.

A blockade runner uses cloak, speed and hit buffer to be safe, not a silly tank. All rigs and low slots are used for cargo expansion when hauling. Also a blockade runner does not transport POS gear, I never wrote it does, it is a fantasy of your own creation. Which makes your post obsolete really.

Also a small scale producer is NOT a miner, he produces and gets ore and minerals from market. Which thanks to compression a blockade runner can now transport. He just does need good reprocessing skills for compressed veld /scordite and an implant. If he chooses to mine a bit locally (which is not wise), stick to veld and scordite. Easy to get related skills up to level 5 and you need them anyway to exploit the handy compact form of the same ores. Minerals other then tritanium and pyrite are compact enough as it is and do not pose a transport hurdle.

If your situated well, just buying compressed ores in the station you produce might do do trick. You just have to pay slightly more then you do if you buy from Jita and transport yourself.

And do not forget, CCP wants to see specialization and co-operation in the manufacturing chain. Not a lone dweller trying to do everything himself inefficiently and then cry about it on forums that it is unfair he is small and they are big!


I'm not sure why people constantly call me ignorant or accuse me of twisting words. I'm just portraying realities in EVE, that don't fit into your utopias. May I quote you with the POS part here:

Inspiration in #1582 wrote:
With some standing preparations, you can simply anchor a temporary small POS in the system you are mining in. Then the hauler directly moves to it and does compression. After the mining stops, the compressed ore and the pos go back into the hauler. And off you go to where you need to sell or refine.


Roll You need that POS as well, if you want to reprocess with the greatest possible results, even if it is only Veld and Scord. And popular production/mining systems have almost always all slots filled, which means you need to travel around and take your stuff with you, so you need to transport that stuff around.
Blockade Runners are certainly safe means to transport things around, but they are by no means infallible or invincible and it only needs 2 Tornados to ruin your day, which brings me back to my original post, from which you diverted the topic so elegantly.

You are also ignoring realities when you say that people should just buy locally on the production plant, because that means you almost always produce at costs above the market price and thus with a loss, which is not the point of this profession - as far as I know. And this become particularly more severe when people, who have access to minerals even cheaper than buy order price, dump their items on the market and can easily undercut you all the time. There are no ISK to waste to more expensive minerals if you want to produce competitively and profitable.

Cooperation is all nice and dandy, but with the Roles and Titles management of corps, among other things, this is more of a deterrent than an encouragement to opt for more cooperation between players - in a field that gives so little reward back to the players who actually do take on the task.


Seriously, why don't you donate your account and all stuffs to me? You keep coming with some stupid taken out of context text after another. Seemingly hoping i will streamline all of your industry for you!

Producer != Miner

Do not take industry tactics i wrote for miners and present them as I wrote them for production and then act like I am high! On top of this you haven't read a word i written, at least not comprehensibly anyway.

If you loose slightly on refine for titanium and pyrite, it will not affect the production cost to the extent a POS is required to be competitive. The other minerals do not take up nearly as much space and can be shipped in refined form (refined by someone else).

In short your insulting!

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1591 - 2014-03-26 17:02:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

One of the purposes of these changes is to get away from the 'lame' un-eve like game play surrounding refining and recycling. More of industry needed to be part of the sandbox and exposed to possibly explosive player to player interaction.

And it fails. A freighter going to a pos from a station and back, in highsec, is invulnerable. That's why this should be a station activity: because putting it in a pos adds a gigantic amount of human misery that has no benefit. You can't gank the freighter because he just docks up if he's agressed. You can't drag bubble or anything in highsec that would let you catch someone freightering. You can't blow up the pos for profit because compression is instant: the freighter just mashes it then returns with the compressed ore.

I am all for situations that create more possibility for human interaction. POS compression does not. It just adds pointless busywork that does not create more human interaction. It can't even create human interaction by subcontracting: you must do it yourself because you can't subcontract hauling to a POS.

All of this was explained in my post.


Mobile compression will be mostly a tool for miners to lower their hauling sores and make it more practical to operate in further away systems. It is clearly not meant for the current compression specialist which buy refined minerals in bulk, compresses them and put them back on market with a markup using a clearly broken game mechanic. Some will do this, but work with relative low volumes. Sourced from beginner systems with few stations.

Compression at a POS is going is remove more dull activities then it will create. And any less PvP exposure as we have now, is clearly impossible, thus i fail to see your augment there. We can disagree how much PVP interaction it will introduce, but i can assure you it will be more then having compression at stations, which clearly is replacing one broken mechanic for yet another.

Any miners moving too much compressed ore in a freighter will certainly have their chance to feel PvP consequences.

I am serious!

Arinyes Cantari
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1592 - 2014-03-26 17:02:38 UTC
Basically saying, this is just another step in the war against carebears. Plain and simple.

CCP's way of saying, if you want to enjoy anything, get with the program.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#1593 - 2014-03-26 17:12:58 UTC
The dev blog says with perfect skills ie lvl 5 in all relevant skills and perfect standings ie 6.67 but without the 4% hardwiring and at a 50% NPC station the refining yield will be 2.8% less than it currently is.

What percentage less would the refining yield be at a 50% NPC station with perfect relevant skills & standings AND with a 4% hardwiring fitted ?

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1594 - 2014-03-26 17:17:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The refining upgrade alone is worth more than 200 large pos's..


lol wut? Do you have any idea how much a Large POS costs?

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=12235

That's 254M each.

At your purported price, the implant would cost 50.8B isk, or about as much as a supercarrier or AT first prize ship.

Hmm.... you aren't by any chance in the market for a 4% refining implant are you? Because I've got a couple Id like to sell.

On another note, having compression at a station would render useless the ability to anchor compression arrays in all NPC space.

While it's true you can't contract to a POS, nor would I expect a single character trying to acquire the minerals for a cap ship to do all that hauling alone, you can sell raw ore and then buy compressed ore on the market, which is the method I would recommend. Or you can even put up exchange contracts selling raw ore and some isk in exchange for compressed ore.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1595 - 2014-03-26 17:27:17 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

Mobile compression will be mostly a tool for miners to lower their hauling sores and make it more practical to operate in further away systems. It is clearly not meant for the current compression specialist which buy refined minerals in bulk, compresses them and put them back on market with a markup using a clearly broken game mechanic. Some will do this, but work with relative low volumes. Sourced from beginner systems with few stations.

Compression at a POS is going is remove more dull activities then it will create. And any less PvP exposure as we have now, is clearly impossible, thus i fail to see your augment there. We can disagree how much PVP interaction it will introduce, but i can assure you it will be more then having compression at stations, which clearly is replacing one broken mechanic for yet another.

Any miners moving too much compressed ore in a freighter will certainly have their chance to feel PvP consequences.

Your argument makes zero sense. Sure, many large-scale miners will simply integrate compression into their routine. That's not what I'm discussing.

The rest of what you're saying is nonsense ("It is clearly not meant for the current compression specialist which buy refined minerals in bulk, compresses them and put them back on market with a markup using a clearly broken game mechanic."). Compression may not have been originally intended, but the devblog is quite clear it has been accepted as a desired activity and mechanism and is being deliberately preserved - just changed - hence targeting the exact current compression rate. Your dislike of current compression is noted, and irrelevant. We can safely discard all of your arguments that flow from that and your nonsense about 'broken mechanics'. You don't make massive changes deliberately designed to preserve broken mechanics.

Compression in station compared to POS have the same PvP exposure - zero - for the addition of mountains of pointless unfun busywork that you're studiously ignoring. Nobody wants to try to gank the freighter full of uncompressed veldspar leaving the station that can just dock up. It is pointless unfun busywork where someone engages in a mindless riskless behavior that creates no content for anyone. Accordingly, it should be eliminated.

Compression in a station does not make a miner moving compressed ore from that station anywhere else the least bit safer. He'll be compressing in his home system and moving it to jita.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1596 - 2014-03-26 17:29:34 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The refining upgrade alone is worth more than 200 large pos's..


lol wut? Do you have any idea how much a Large POS costs?

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=12235

That's 254M each.

At your purported price, the implant would cost 50.8B isk, or about as much as a supercarrier or AT first prize ship.
.

he's talking the outpost upgrade not the impant dude which makes him correct, a fully upgraded minmatar t3 outpost costs about 60b to deploy and upgrade

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1597 - 2014-03-26 19:56:35 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The refining upgrade alone is worth more than 200 large pos's..


lol wut? Do you have any idea how much a Large POS costs?

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=12235

That's 254M each.

At your purported price, the implant would cost 50.8B isk, or about as much as a supercarrier or AT first prize ship.
.

he's talking the outpost upgrade not the impant dude which makes him correct, a fully upgraded minmatar t3 outpost costs about 60b to deploy and upgrade


Oh, in that case, yeah. I thought he was talking about the implant. Nvm then.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Akira Menoko
Stratotech Industries
Intrepid Crossing
#1598 - 2014-03-26 21:35:11 UTC
I like most of the proposed changes to refining, but the are a couple things I don't like when it comes to the POS reprocessing arrays:

1.POS reprocessor arrays seem too powerful to me.

The combination of greater efficiency and getting perfect refines regardless of skill is just too over powered to me. If skills were applied to POS refines I could possibly, grudgingly, live with the 52%/54% efficiencies, but not when it's automatic perfect skills. So I think some sort of adjustment is needed to scale them back but still make them better than a standard station.

I'd like to see the reprocessing arrays stepped back to 50%/52%. This would be enough to still make them better but not overwhelmingly better. I'd also like to see them take skills into account too.

2. cost of POS reprocessor vs. outpost upgrades

When comparing the base efficiencies of reprocessing at a POS with the efficiencies of the outpost upgrades (as proposed in the deb blog), reprocessing at the POS is better until you get an outpost upgraded to the 2nd tier. The cost of upgrading an outpost to the second tier is in the range of 12 billion isk which, when compared to the 50 million isk price tag of a POS reprocessing array, is pretty extreme (about 250x greater). I'm not a fan of that huge price jump but no idea what could be done about it.

As above, it'd be more acceptable if the POS reprocessors took skills into account and were reduced to 50%/52% base efficiency. I'm fine with them being competitive with the base outposts and first tier upgrades, but beyond that the cost of getting additional tiers is just too big for the outposts with refinery upgrades to not be superior.
Alexia Marhx
The Witch's Den
#1599 - 2014-03-27 02:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexia Marhx
Kaimar Redcloud wrote:
Raquel Smith wrote:
Pretty miserable changes to Scrapmetal Processing.

^^^^This^^^^
Why did I waste my time training it? I hate mining so I rat and repro the loot for my mins to build with. Now I have to buy a POS and monthly fuel costs, a refining array and a jump clone with refining implants just to get CLOSE to what I'm getting now.

So much for the "New Player Experince". I hope they like their noob ships. They're going to be in them a looooong time now. Ship prices are gonna jump again. I can see 400mil Domis by the end of the second week after the expansion. Great for the indy's,not so great for the new people.

By the way CCP, if everything is better in low/null, why are your offices in Iceland and the U.S. (.9 or 1.0 equiv) and not in Syria (.3) or Somalia (0.0). Oh yeah, cuz it doesn't work that way. Corps put their best stuff in the safest places. Empire refining should be better than low/null. Nullsec alliances that pay for the upgrades, should get rewarded with close to empire refining abilities. Empire shouldn't be struggling to match null. BTW I live in sov null before I hear the carebear comments. Just waiting for a hiring freeze to thaw.




^^^^ Agreed! Once again, CCP is just trying to give "badboys" yet another boost...
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1600 - 2014-03-27 05:41:52 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
And do not forget, CCP wants to see specialization and co-operation in the manufacturing chain. Not a lone dweller trying to do everything himself inefficiently and then cry about it on forums that it is unfair he is small and they are big!

So yet another aspect of what was part of the Eve "SandBox" having play style dictated by developers rather than players.

The best thing about eve was that you didn't need to fit into everyone else's play style. The game lent itself towards everyone having a choice and whether you played solo or in an alliance of 10,000 you could still carve a niche for yourself and play the game the way you wanted.

Pretty much all recent changes have been pushing the sandbox element of Eve further and further off the map.

"Specialization" ?? Yes CCP want players to specialize in refining, 100+ days of training, a month or two running missions for standings and a +4 implant.
Oh hang on they are introducing a pos module that doesn't take skills into account - where is the incentive to specialize when you can do the same with "Anchoring 3" (12 hours training) and a pos module?
If CCP was serious about Refining / Reprocessing Specialization they would not allow a no skills required module to be placed in Empire space pos's.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.