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So what happens if we feel the CSM does not represent us?

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ExhumeToConsume
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#241 - 2011-09-08 07:56:38 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Alot of good seems to have come out of this thread, me thinks... The only people still seriously complaining seem to be the Mittani/Goon haters, and well, there is only one response to that.

Haters gonna hate


Indeed, although those "haters" are most likely the very same people who never bothered to vote in the first place, and are now bitter that their apathy resulted in their Space Enemies being elected to the CSM. How awful!

How enraged will they get when the CSM (which isn't full of Goons although you'd think that given the hysteria from certain badposting pubbies) actually gets some results and this game starts getting at least even priority with a vampire MMO and a console game?
Niccy
Imtec inc.
#242 - 2011-09-08 07:58:13 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
[quote=pussnheels]

Also, as I said before, being elected by a subset of the population does not prevent one from representing the other people, for they are equally important to the ecosystem. In an internal discussion with CCP about industry we were considering the impact of changes on casual traders/miners/inventors/etc. ffs... Yet not many of them voted for me (I think)...



I don't think any of them voted at all to be honest.

But you are, off course, right.
I red somewhere that about half of the Eve playerbase never leaves high-sec. Now you can state that that is not the way the game is supposed to be played and that PvP is an integral part of Eve gameplay, but that does not change the fact that Eve would have a very hard time, if possible at all, surviving without these high sec players.

The CSM must know this, and CCP surely does.

No matter hos interesting you made null-sec, you cant draw players from high-sec to null sec if all high-sec players left the game because it was not interesting enough.

Personally I think the CSM is perfectly aware of this, and to be honest (whether it was the CSM influence or CCP) High-sec has had a lot of candy during my time in the game.
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#243 - 2011-09-08 08:10:02 UTC
Niccy wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
[quote=pussnheels]

Also, as I said before, being elected by a subset of the population does not prevent one from representing the other people, for they are equally important to the ecosystem. In an internal discussion with CCP about industry we were considering the impact of changes on casual traders/miners/inventors/etc. ffs... Yet not many of them voted for me (I think)...



I don't think any of them voted at all to be honest.

But you are, off course, right.
I red somewhere that about half of the Eve playerbase never leaves high-sec. Now you can state that that is not the way the game is supposed to be played and that PvP is an integral part of Eve gameplay, but that does not change the fact that Eve would have a very hard time, if possible at all, surviving without these high sec players.

The CSM must know this, and CCP surely does.

No matter hos interesting you made null-sec, you cant draw players from high-sec to null sec if all high-sec players left the game because it was not interesting enough.

Personally I think the CSM is perfectly aware of this, and to be honest (whether it was the CSM influence or CCP) High-sec has had a lot of candy during my time in the game.



Actually this is an interesting bit. Who are those people who never leave highsec?

I know some of them are my industry alts, as are those of 0.0/lowsec/WH players.
Some of them are in highsec because they actually like highsec.
Some of them are in highsec because there's "nothing" for them out there. Lowsec is too much risk for too little reward, and 0.0 has no need for industrialists, or they don't know how to get to 0.0, or they don't feel like participating in blob warfare.

That latter group is what interests me most in improving 0.0 (and later lowsec). Not to coerce people into moving, but providing enough of an incentive for them to move if they want to. I know quite a few players and corporations who'd love nothing more but to be part of that experience but there's simply no venue for them to take part.
I don't care much about improving content for the existing sov holders (except to decrease the pain of sov fights and supercap blobs), I aim at providing something for people who are not yet currently there. And this, in turn, will improve things for people who already are there, but as a consequence and not a primary objective.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#244 - 2011-09-08 08:10:17 UTC
Vin Hellsing wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Alot of good seems to have come out of this thread, me thinks... The only people still seriously complaining seem to be the Mittani/Goon haters, and well, there is only one response to that.

Haters gonna hate


Just happens. :p Personally, Mittani probably has his heart in the right place, but I wonder sometimes if he's just a major attention *****. Pirate

Both are true, and I think there is a post somewhere on the old forums where mittens himself comes out and says as much. This is a case where an attention whore is the right man for the job tho. Going the route he is will get results one way or another, and its much more likely to be in favor of EvE getting more developer attention again.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
pussnheels
Viziam
#245 - 2011-09-08 08:12:49 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
Bah
Nobody is questionning the abillity of the CSM members, people are only concerned about the onesided make up of the current CSM because of low voters turnout, and that can be rigged andwas rigged infavor of acertain alliances who s only goal is to ruin the game for everyone else
No dear CSM members be honest and tell us do you really think you can influence or change the game design while you only represent less than15% of the players
second question what influence will you have if more than 25 to 30% or even more people actually voted. During the CSM election


While many people in this current CSM have a primarily 0.0 voterbase, others have made it in. I'm primarily an industrialist/lowsec PvPer, two step's wormhole (he's an alt, but alts can contribute meaningfully).

That said, one's electorate does not mean one has to act like an idiot whose only purpose is to foster one area of the game. You'd be surprised at listening to those 0.0 players who've been elected over the years actively try to improve the New Player Experience, providing good feedback on the tutorials, etc.).

In every CSM so far, all attempts at skewing things towards one area of the game that would benefit the few instead of the many has been shot down internally within the CSM before it even reached CCP. And even if it hadn't, the devs would not accept such requests. Remember we provide feedback and requests to CCP, we don't give orders.

Also, as I said before, being elected by a subset of the population does not prevent one from representing the other people, for they are equally important to the ecosystem. In an internal discussion with CCP about industry we were considering the impact of changes on casual traders/miners/inventors/etc. ffs... Yet not many of them voted for me (I think)...



I believe you and you made a goodpoint
But wouldnt it be better for the whole evecommunity, thegame and CCP if the CSMrepresented more than a meagre 15% of the playerbase
You will never be able to make everybody happy true and haters will continue to hate ,
I am really started to think after reading the serious posts in this thread, your main job would be making people aware what the CSM is and what they can or can not do for the playerbase... For now

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#246 - 2011-09-08 08:19:24 UTC
pussnheels wrote:


I believe you and you made a goodpoint
But wouldnt it be better for the whole evecommunity, thegame and CCP if the CSMrepresented more than a meagre 15% of the playerbase
You will never be able to make everybody happy true and haters will continue to hate ,
I am really started to think after reading the serious posts in this thread, your main job would be making people aware what the CSM is and what they can or can not do for the playerbase... For now


Absolutely, and that's up to the players to vote.
It comes down to awareness. I think over the past 3 years the awareness of the CSM and its potential has grown. There's still quite a few people who are hard to reach, but I expect a greater voter turnout next time.

Haters, well, I don't mind them too much. There's enough constructive people out there to more than make up for them.

We've tried to raise awareness by using devblogs, by using news, by being included in those newsletters.

I can't speak for others, but I've tried to talk to people in trade hubs and missioning hubs, talk on forums.

During elections I literally sit at a gate and convo every single person who jumps through. I even direct them towards other candidates if they're not convinced by me, but at some point it's up to the players to relay that bit come elections time.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
El'Niaga
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#247 - 2011-09-08 08:27:09 UTC
It doesn't matter who is in the CSM. They have no power people. They never did and never will.

If you are unhappy with Senior Managements moves with EVE there is really only one solution outlined in Hilmar's letter that was leaked out. They are watching actions not words. The only actions they are watching is average subscriptions. Until that number drops below their specified limit they will not listen.

EVE is largely not run by the guys who started CCP, they had to many other investors. It is those new investors who through wrangling actually control what EVE and CCP become. They are former citigroup and other employees who don't game and have no vested interest in the game beyond a money stream.

They've cut development to next to nothing to cut expenses and just sitting back raking in the subscription fees for minimal work.

Hard to say what average period they are using but a cancellation of anything less than 90 days probably doesn't even show up as a blip on their numbers. Considering many people pay for 6 month and even yearly subscriptions it is unknown whether you can move the data line sufficiently before the train hits the wall.
Niccy
Imtec inc.
#248 - 2011-09-08 08:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Niccy
Little edit, my own message got deleted :S

Meissa Anunthiel wrote:

Actually this is an interesting bit. Who are those people who never leave highsec?

I know some of them are my industry alts, as are those of 0.0/lowsec/WH players.
Some of them are in highsec because they actually like highsec.
Some of them are in highsec because there's "nothing" for them out there. Lowsec is too much risk for too little reward, and 0.0 has no need for industrialists, or they don't know how to get to 0.0, or they don't feel like participating in blob warfare.

That latter group is what interests me most in improving 0.0 (and later lowsec). Not to coerce people into moving, but providing enough of an incentive for them to move if they want to. I know quite a few players and corporations who'd love nothing more but to be part of that experience but there's simply no venue for them to take part.
I don't care much about improving content for the existing sov holders (except to decrease the pain of sov fights and supercap blobs), I aim at providing something for people who are not yet currently there. And this, in turn, will improve things for people who already are there, but as a consequence and not a primary objective.



Perhaps the people that play solo? or in small corps?
Despite Eve being an MMO, you still get a LOT of those.

As one of those, and looking at my own experience, when I attempted to get into null I was shot at the gates... a lot...
Now, that is no fun, so why should I keep trying?

Perhaps you are looking at it from the wrong direction then, and you should not only coerce people to come to nullsec, but you must also give current nullsec dwellers a good reason to allow new people in their midst.
Like a station becoming more profitable if the agents there issue a lot of missions, or something like that.

As it stands, I'd love to go to nullsec, but it is an expensive endeavor with little to no return.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#249 - 2011-09-08 08:47:37 UTC  |  Edited by: The Mittani
Vin Hellsing wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Alot of good seems to have come out of this thread, me thinks... The only people still seriously complaining seem to be the Mittani/Goon haters, and well, there is only one response to that.

Haters gonna hate


Just happens. :p Personally, Mittani probably has his heart in the right place, but I wonder sometimes if he's just a major attention *****. Pirate


I don't need this kind of attention. I 'won' EVE (as far as my personal goal) in February 2009 with the BoB disband, I'm probably the highest profile player in the game, I've lectured at the GDC about EVE, I have a popular column. I lead the largest alliance, a powerful bloc, and on top of that I'm the CSM chair. I really don't give a **** about going LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME over the FiS Neglect issue. If you think /this/ - calling CCP's upper management on their bullshit, which is explicitly the purpose of the CSM according to Hilmar himself - is arrogant, I don't know what to tell you.

Had the CSM not been scooped by Eurogamer, the first the playerbase would have heard of this controversy would have been from a formal spotlight signed by the entire CSM. You shouldn't confuse the problem that faces us all - the flat-lining interest of the playerbase in EVE after a series of non-spaceship expansions- with the accidental messenger. The CSM has many factions that players might think are opposed - hisec, lowsec, nullsec and wormholers - yet on this crisis we are 100% united.

By this point I've made friends with most of the folks I've met at CCP over the years, and so I'm conflicted having to hammer the upper management over the situation. I'm afraid the position of the CSM will be misinterpreted as an attack on the excellent folks who are line-level employees and devs at CCP, who can't be held responsible for FiS Neglect.

~hi~
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#250 - 2011-09-08 08:52:02 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Vin Hellsing wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Alot of good seems to have come out of this thread, me thinks... The only people still seriously complaining seem to be the Mittani/Goon haters, and well, there is only one response to that.

Haters gonna hate


Just happens. :p Personally, Mittani probably has his heart in the right place, but I wonder sometimes if he's just a major attention *****. Pirate

Both are true, and I think there is a post somewhere on the old forums where mittens himself comes out and says as much. This is a case where an attention ***** is the right man for the job tho. Going the route he is will get results one way or another, and its much more likely to be in favor of EvE getting more developer attention again.



The CSM Chair isn't a job for nice people, it's true. And I'm either a narcissist or a megalomaniac depending on who you talk to; there's no doubt that I'm pretty full of myself. It is what it is. vOv

~hi~
Niccy
Imtec inc.
#251 - 2011-09-08 08:55:33 UTC
The Mittani wrote:


The CSM Chair isn't a job for nice people, it's true. And I'm either a narcissist or a megalomaniac depending on who you talk to; there's no doubt that I'm pretty full of myself. It is what it is. vOv


Well, even being a high-sec dweller myself, I do think you have the right idea.
I don't have any problems with you being the a-hole that I agree with. With all due respect off course.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#252 - 2011-09-08 09:53:46 UTC
If you want to understand what mittens is trying to do and how, read this.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Flamespar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#253 - 2011-09-08 10:02:36 UTC
Dear CCP.

Please make the next expansion epic so we can all stop arguing and playing forum PVP and get back to playing spaceship PVP.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#254 - 2011-09-08 10:06:05 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Dear CCP.

Please make the next expansion epic so we can all stop arguing and playing forum PVP and get back to playing spaceship PVP.


And that is /exactly/ the point.

~hi~
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2011-09-08 10:37:16 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Eh...

Quote:
POS Fuel pellets.

What's this? Shocked


Something typical of the kinds of discussions CSM has with CCP. This is a feature that people have wanted for some time to make POS fueling less of a royal pain in the ass.

I won't say which side brought this up or what the results were, but in these discussions, typically what happens is that we argue the pros and cons, with the goal being CCP getting a better idea of how much bang-for-the-buck they'll get for implementing it -- is it worth the development time.

Sometimes the results of these discussions will be a different way of achieving the desired result that is easier to implement, which means it is more likely to get done, and get done sooner.

Not a very dramatic thing to put on your campaign page ("I helped make it more likely you'll be able to fill your POS with little fuel-turds") but it is something we do all the time.

Richard Hammond II wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
(most of us do have RL jobs, after all!),

Whoa what job you have that allows you to fly off to iceland ranomly?


I work for a company that releases Japanese films, and can get time off when I want it because I'm sleeping with the boss.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Juil
Royal Society for Prevention of Cruilty to Drones
#256 - 2011-09-08 10:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Juil
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Vin Hellsing wrote:
To be frank, I like to talk to people on a face to face basis through conversations, and none of the CSM have made themselves available for that.

Twisted


csm wrote:
Lots of discussion which is good


This is all fine except that some of us who voted for certain members who Are NOT Goon related feel cheated over the fact that everything in the CSM is either....

A. Oh everything is roses (incarna's release, the current lack of content in the patch, the emergency csm meeting).. Lets face it guys you didn't exactly handle that one the greatest.. over the 'long' run..

B. Oh stufu your wrong were right - This is how it feels when ever it comes to high sec vs null sec.. or trying to get straight answers from you at times.


I'll openly come out and admit it, my BIGGEST problem with the CSM is that you appear to roll over and lie like every other f'n pollie in the world.. you claim big things, you claim you'll do right by those who vote for you and then we see or hear very little of you once your in the postition..

Certain members of THIS CSM made part of their platforms on being Balanced, on sticking up for those in High Sec as much as Null Sec.. And yet from the view points etc etc that we see and recent patch changes and speculations it looks like High Sec is going to be screwed over and yet we hear from the majority of you not a peep.. Note I said the majority given that a lovely female avatar appears very very frequently in such discussions..

I know that a chuhnk of the CSM lives out in Null sec.. yeah all you goon lot, I know NULL sec has been neglected.. but all I see is CCP saying 'were going to rob High Sec, nerf it even more and focus completely on Null' and apart from well one CSM there doesn't appear much from the CSM in stand point on this at all. Despite the fact that as proven time and time again the MAJORITY of the player base whom you are meant to be representing dont' seem to give two ***** about null sec.. instead empire is where they/we live.

Now I might have actually believed even part of what some of you are saying about 'we do listen', ' we do act'.. except for one thing.. How you have handled the whole release of Incarna and the Emergency Meeting and the 3 months after it...

First off you guys where tight lipped in actual information durring the meeting, despite the player base being furious and upset.. now i know some tried to post to twitter but at the same time 99% of those posts where 'Sorry can't say anything' or 'Trolling for kicks' rather then SERIOUS Information and feedback.. You where literally the focus of a good chunk of the eve community and what did we get from it?

- Mittens sitting down with the very people most of us considered to be the devil incarnate at the time and saying 'hey look everything is fine.. your all imagining it..... on video..
- The CSM actively joking and laughing and the like over part of the issue RE: Hey we all got stuipid eye pieces etc in twitter.
- No Minutes at all.. despite 3 months having passed.. and only excuses from BOTH parties about Tone.
- A patch that is meant to be a massive 'iteration' that instead not only seems to deliver.... well nothing 3 months on from the first 'patch' of incarna.. but also manages to break things that should NEVER have been broken in the first place.
- A massive miss of CCP's own announced deadlines again for the other C.Q's..
- Little in the way of Blogs or anything else from a number of the CSM for the past 3 months..
- Little or NO communication from CCP in the past 3 months, Despite the fact that they went on video and went 'We will do better.
- Rumblings that Mittens might have finally realised that those people who where pissed 3 months ago when he said everythings fine.. and have remained pissed.. might actually... have been right.


Look I don't honestly give two rats ass that Mittens is a goon.. I've never had problems with the goons.. even when I lived in Null.. but the CSM seems to have failed as much in the Communicative Department as CCP of late.. You lot all of you went to the emergency meeting to hold to 'account' ccp over their actions.. and yet for the past 3 months you have not...

And This more then anything is the reason that at least to me personally I take anything YOU the CSM are saying with the same Grain of Salt as I do CCP of late.

You want us to believe you are working for the good of us all.. then START acting like it. Stop trolling, stop biting when people bait you, start openly communicating, start listing off what YOU are doing to HELP us in getting CCP to live up to ITS end of the bargin.. And No i'm not saying make them scrap Incarna or the like.. But you can raise hell over massively missed deadlines, Crap patches, Missing Minute notes and the like.. you can also start putting your foot down on how close to the NDA line you'll walk.

But the little things you can actually do that might at least start getting some of us back on side in the mean time?

Just look at the same list of things you've failed to do for the past 3 months.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#257 - 2011-09-08 11:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Zymurgist
What is the CSM's stance on getting a dislike button on these forums?

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#258 - 2011-09-08 11:12:51 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Eh...

Quote:
POS Fuel pellets.

What's this? Shocked


Something typical of the kinds of discussions CSM has with CCP. This is a feature that people have wanted for some time to make POS fueling less of a royal pain in the ass.

I won't say which side brought this up or what the results were, but in these discussions, typically what happens is that we argue the pros and cons, with the goal being CCP getting a better idea of how much bang-for-the-buck they'll get for implementing it -- is it worth the development time.

Sometimes the results of these discussions will be a different way of achieving the desired result that is easier to implement, which means it is more likely to get done, and get done sooner.

Not a very dramatic thing to put on your campaign page ("I helped make it more likely you'll be able to fill your POS with little fuel-turds") but it is something we do all the time.

Richard Hammond II wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
(most of us do have RL jobs, after all!),

Whoa what job you have that allows you to fly off to iceland ranomly?


I work for a company that releases Japanese films, and can get time off when I want it because I'm sleeping with the boss.



wasnt the idea of 'fuel pellets' banded around 3 years ago or so? anyhow would be an handy thing, especially if they removed it from the pi **** and made it npc only same as pos fuel used to be

OMG when can i get a pic here
Hotaru Yamato
Perkone
Caldari State
#259 - 2011-09-08 11:18:34 UTC
For every one person who thinks the CSM doesn't represent them, there are two people who do.
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#260 - 2011-09-08 11:25:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:

Meissa's corolary: Malcanis has no idea what he's talking about.

(was refering to your signature)


My "Law" has been derived from observational evidence. Specifically, whenever someone makes an obviously unbalanced and self-serving proposal, they invariably try and justify it by saying that it will "help new players" (sometimes it's "new corps in 0.0", which amounts to the same thing). It's the EVE equivalent of "Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!!!"

In short, I have a very clear idea of what I'm talking about, which I can back up with a coherent hypothesis and supporting facts.

Do you?


Having been a part of those very conversations you decry for the past 3 years, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.
May I remind you some things such as the learning skill removal and the new tutorial, both of which the CSM has had a hand in the making?

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7