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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Faction War Data

First post
Author
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#161 - 2013-03-14 00:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:

You are right I misread your post. How many bunkers did you bust and who did you bust them with?

And really there is no point in bringing up killboards again. Yes I can ***** killmails by gate camping in sensor boosted ships like you do, but that is not my bag. You don't think my killboard is impressive either - I agree. So what? No one really cares.



We busted 6- 8 hubs. These systems were near our home system and were never busted by caldari as part of any of their tier 5 pushes as they had enough systems to hit tier 5 without them. We just denied their farmers the land to farm in these perma-vuln systems while stacking the systems ready for our push and denying them the option to just ninja flip them if needed - since the caldari were very active in trying to deny gallente cashouts.

As for remosebo camping, sure ive been lazy. But im not the one complaining now am i? Aside from the last month and a half you will find little or no gate camping on my killboard. On the other hand, i have killed many dozens of farmers while on the gate so you should really be appreciating the work done :)

On the topic of killboards, the quality/efficiency of your board is not what im talking about. Just the fact that if you spend as much time looking for kills as you did trolling these threads with your ill informed drivel then the quantity of kills and losses should be a great deal higher. It just smacks to me you would rather just moan on forums than play the game. As usual, this is an issue with the player, not the game.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#162 - 2013-03-14 01:39:05 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

You are right I misread your post. How many bunkers did you bust and who did you bust them with?

And really there is no point in bringing up killboards again. Yes I can ***** killmails by gate camping in sensor boosted ships like you do, but that is not my bag. You don't think my killboard is impressive either - I agree. So what? No one really cares.



We busted 6- 8 hubs. These systems were near our home system and were never busted by caldari as part of any of their tier 5 pushes as they had enough systems to hit tier 5 without them. We just denied their farmers the land to farm in these perma-vuln systems while stacking the systems ready for our push and denying them the option to just ninja flip them if needed - since the caldari were very active in trying to deny gallente cashouts.

As for remosebo camping, sure ive been lazy. But im not the one complaining now am i? Aside from the last month and a half you will find little or no gate camping on my killboard. On the other hand, i have killed many dozens of farmers while on the gate so you should really be appreciating the work done :)

On the topic of killboards, the quality/efficiency of your board is not what im talking about. Just the fact that if you spend as much time looking for kills as you did trolling these threads with your ill informed drivel then the quantity of kills and losses should be a great deal higher. It just smacks to me you would rather just moan on forums than play the game. As usual, this is an issue with the player, not the game.



Thats a very small number of systems flipped by alts. Given that no one seems to care about occupancy now under the current forever grind system its hard to say its preferable. No real goals other than getting a large enough blob to take over a base system.

I'm actually not happy that the pvp is switching to gate camping for farmers.

As far as my playing time - well the game is ok and I like playing it. But spending hours for a few good fights isn't something I want to spend allot more time at. But that is really none of your business, and beside the point that the best occupancy plexers don't pvp at all. If your happy that the system is such that the best occupancy warriors are carebears, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am just pointing out that under the current mechanics the best occupancy plexers are in fact carebears..

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#163 - 2013-03-14 01:41:29 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Given that no one seems to care about occupancy now under the current forever grind system its hard to say its preferable. No real goals other than getting a large enough blob to take over a base system.
Says you. Others in our militia that have flipped about 10 systems over the past week disagree with you. The Caldari who have flipped about 60+ systems since being run out of the warzone would probably disagree as well.


Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#164 - 2013-03-14 02:05:35 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I would put the average at about 1 kill per hour per system.


This is an issue with your analysis - right now, there's not enough people in FW to really populate all the systems. So activity is centered around a few systems, and no-one but farmers really care about the other systems.

The people who want pvp hang around one of the hot spots and they get a lot of it. They don't go to the unpopulated areas.

Since you said you didn't know the gal/cal zone much, off the top of my head some hotspots are:

Tama
Nisuwa + 1 jump
Nenna + 1 jump except for Immuri
Vlillier + 1 jump
Eha
Okagaiken in the German TZ, dead otherwise
Heyd





Thanks for the info.

I guess no one wants to leave their booster alts. I think what you say is true. We see allot more pvp in the hot systems and not so much of an increase in the back waters.(although even in the back water systems its better than pre-inferno) That the war would become more about who can outblob the other in a few systems was accurately predicted with the station lockout changes.

One of the great things about the faction war plex system is that it could force both sides to leave the blob and spread out The current system is not really doing that. Would you agree?

I go into the systems you mention and can expect to wait around for a fight and then when it finally comes I can expect 5xs my number (probably all boosted since its their home system) to jump in after me. Its better than nothing, and I realize allot of the players may be new so they have to all stick together. (I did too when I was new) But its not really all that great either. Its certainly not the vision of small gang fights happening constantly throughout the warzone.

Even before inferno I knew where to go if I wanted to get blobbed e.g., Hang out on the kourm huola gate.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#165 - 2013-03-14 02:11:34 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Given that no one seems to care about occupancy now under the current forever grind system its hard to say its preferable. No real goals other than getting a large enough blob to take over a base system.
Says you. Others in our militia that have flipped about 10 systems over the past week disagree with you. The Caldari who have flipped about 60+ systems since being run out of the warzone would probably disagree as well.



Well this thread is full of people saying they don't care about anything but a handfull of systems - this includes you. Only cynthia nezmor cares and she is running multiple alts. Her and about 3 others the only ones who care about occupancy in the other 90% of systems.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#166 - 2013-03-14 02:32:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:
One of the great things about the faction war plex system is that it could force both sides to leave the blob and spread out The current system is not really doing that. Would you agree?


I don't agree, but close. The previous system didn't force both sides to leave the blob, just like the current system doesn't. However, the current system punishes those that branch out on their own because they can't maintain around the clock control of their system so they can dock.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#167 - 2013-03-14 03:02:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Cearain wrote:

Thats a very small number of systems flipped by alts. Given that no one seems to care about occupancy now under the current forever grind system its hard to say its preferable. No real goals other than getting a large enough blob to take over a base system.

I'm actually not happy that the pvp is switching to gate camping for farmers.


It was exactly the number we needed to flip. It was one of the actions that assured gallentes single tier 5 cashout.

You dont think we could have swung the whole war zone? Im sceptical too. But there is no denying that as a militia we could probably get half a dozen squads of 4/6 dreadnought alts / people willing to drop their mains into cal mil, each squad capable of swinging a system in one siege cycle.

Its no different to what we did anyway. Its not hard to change into a shell corp thats already in cal mil.

Finally, no one cares if you are happy with gatecamping or anything else. Just that your reasons for being unhappy are that people are gaming the system. Most people are happy with the current status quo and accept it as a happy medium since the pvp in the game has never been so abundant and paying for it is viable without going out of your way too much. No one has suggested anything close to a fix that removes the negatives while maintaining the positives of the current system. Your solution is pathetic and would not fix the real reason you are unhappy with your eve experience - the obvious fact that you are pretty lazy.
Lin Suizei
#168 - 2013-03-14 04:13:24 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Most people are happy with the current status quo and accept it as a happy medium since the pvp in the game has never been so abundant and paying for it is viable without going out of your way too much.


Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that people are happier with the current status quo, but aren't satisfied with it - I don't know a single pvp'ing person, outside of a few vocal forum warriors, who would accept that the current system is at all healthy. Yes, it's better than pre-nerf, but the job is not yet done (especially considering FW is farmed just as hard, if not harder, than pre-nerf).

Also, confirming Cearain's laziness is the problem which is causing the rampant plex farming and broken system design which heavily incentivizes avoiding PvP. If he wasn't so lazy, there would be no plex farming.

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.

X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#169 - 2013-03-14 04:44:14 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Well this thread is full of people saying they don't care about anything but a handfull of systems - this includes you. Only cynthia nezmor cares and she is running multiple alts. Her and about 3 others the only ones who care about occupancy in the other 90% of systems.
I think this thread is full of people who say they know their influence (and attention span, patience for waiting out rabbits, etc...) is limited, and adjust accordingly. Even you can't be bothered to chase farmers while you are online.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#170 - 2013-03-14 04:46:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Lin Suizei wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Most people are happy with the current status quo and accept it as a happy medium since the pvp in the game has never been so abundant and paying for it is viable without going out of your way too much.


Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that people are happier with the current status quo, but aren't satisfied with it - I don't know a single pvp'ing person, outside of a few vocal forum warriors, who would accept that the current system is at all healthy. Yes, it's better than pre-nerf, but the job is not yet done (especially considering FW is farmed just as hard, if not harder, than pre-nerf).

Also, confirming Cearain's laziness is the problem which is causing the rampant plex farming and broken system design which heavily incentivizes avoiding PvP. If he wasn't so lazy, there would be no plex farming.


Confirming that 20-30k vp per day per faction in ships with guns is farming on the same scale or greater than the gunless ships farming well over 100k per day in already vuln systems for the upswing factions pre nerf.

Personally id still like to see timers running backwards on abandoned plexes, however, saying that you are unhappy with the game mechanics is ridiculous. Current FW is better than it has ever been by any measure, except for perhaps bc and above brawls.

The only legitimate complaint imo would be that the players are broken since there is always a demographic that will game any reward system in eve, any other game and irl. Removing rewards is the only way to fix the farmers that are utterly ruining yours and the cearains game. In light of this im pretty sure that most other people who arnt pathologically transfixed by farmers and the occupancy of some remote system could be described as more satisfied than ever before. You know, the guys that are out there shooting stuff, making isk and creating content. Thats my experience.

Its not that im against things improving, just that all suggestions beyond timers rolling back have been worthless.
ALUCARD 1208
Death by Design.
#171 - 2013-03-14 04:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
crosi wesdo wrote:


.....

Current FW is better than it has ever been by any measure, except for perhaps bc and above brawls.


.



this
ALUCARD 1208
Death by Design.
#172 - 2013-03-14 09:00:15 UTC
youve had enough after 2 weeks of posting and decided you should be banned again drama?
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
WE FORM V0LTA
#173 - 2013-03-14 11:50:00 UTC
Dread, I would caution against wasting too much time reasoning with people who genuinely believe there is a CCP conspiracy against a militia. It's not a productive use of your time.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#174 - 2013-03-14 12:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Lin Suizei wrote:

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that people are happier with the current status quo, but aren't satisfied with it - I don't know a single pvp'ing person, outside of a few vocal forum warriors, who would accept that the current system is at all healthy. Yes, it's better than pre-nerf, but the job is not yet done (especially considering FW is farmed just as hard, if not harder, than pre-nerf).

The farmers cause volatility in the FW map, and they affect your isk/lp ratio when selling stuff. That's about it. You can argue all you want about how much volatility there should be, or how much you think you are entitled to earn for having fun 23/7. Fair enough.

The best objective figure of merit on how FW Occupany is working out is whether or not the FW map reflects the actual balance of power on the ground. The answer for the most part is 'yes" in the Gallente and Caldari theater- especially if you look at the amount of time a system is held by each side over a period of time (to account for the effects of volatility in unpopulated regions).

What affects the long term stability of a system? The number and quality of pvp'ers on both sides who dedicate themselves to that system.

Cearain, however, is whining that volatility caused by farmers is "winning" or "losing" FW which is clearly not the case. They are just causing systems to flip back and forth relatively quickly in unpopulated areas. So, his whine, and yours are misplaced. You both should really be saying "I want a more stable FW map", and "I am jealous that farmers are making isk at my expense"
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#175 - 2013-03-14 13:12:12 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Lin Suizei wrote:

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that people are happier with the current status quo, but aren't satisfied with it - I don't know a single pvp'ing person, outside of a few vocal forum warriors, who would accept that the current system is at all healthy. Yes, it's better than pre-nerf, but the job is not yet done (especially considering FW is farmed just as hard, if not harder, than pre-nerf).

The farmers cause volatility in the FW map, and they affect your isk/lp ratio when selling stuff. That's about it. You can argue all you want about how much volatility there should be, or how much you think you are entitled to earn for having fun 23/7. Fair enough.

The best objective figure of merit on how FW Occupany is working out is whether or not the FW map reflects the actual balance of power on the ground. The answer for the most part is 'yes" in the Gallente and Caldari theater- especially if you look at the amount of time a system is held by each side over a period of time (to account for the effects of volatility in unpopulated regions).

What affects the long term stability of a system? The number and quality of pvp'ers on both sides who dedicate themselves to that system.

Cearain, however, is whining that volatility caused by farmers is "winning" or "losing" FW which is clearly not the case. They are just causing systems to flip back and forth relatively quickly in unpopulated areas. So, his whine, and yours are misplaced. You both should really be saying "I want a more stable FW map", and "I am jealous that farmers are making isk at my expense"


As long as people prefer stabbed farmer alts grinding lp better choice than pvp char fw will never be good.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#176 - 2013-03-14 15:14:13 UTC
Hi,

Please note that under rule 31 of the forums, rumor mongering is not allowed.
This includes claiming that CCP are biased against specific Factions of Factional warfare.

Forum rules wrote:

Rumor mongering is prohibited.

Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the wellbeing and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators.


If you disagree with the proposed changes, you can use the Feedback thread in Features and Ideas here to make your arguments, constructively.

Thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#177 - 2013-03-14 15:15:16 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
As long as people prefer stabbed farmer alts grinding lp better choice than pvp char fw will never be good.
So FW was good back when you had 3 stabbed farmer alts defensive plexing for no LP? (they gained standings quicker and then ran one-time COSMOS missions with them)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#178 - 2013-03-14 16:15:28 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Thats a very small number of systems flipped by alts. Given that no one seems to care about occupancy now under the current forever grind system its hard to say its preferable. No real goals other than getting a large enough blob to take over a base system.

I'm actually not happy that the pvp is switching to gate camping for farmers.


It was exactly the number we needed to flip. It was one of the actions that assured gallentes single tier 5 cashout..


Are you assuming that caldari would not have flipped these systems when they did their own cashout? You just flipped them early. The hord of farmers making 700million isk an hour in gunless frigates would have come to flip them back regardless.

How this strategy would work now when you can't make a system 500% contested and you don't get lp after a system is contested is very questionable.

Moreover all the other changes including the fact that we used to get about 5-8xs as much isk per hour farming plexes was a big issue. The change requiring rats to be killed also had some effect although I think not nearly as much as the isk. Bottom line is that if we were making 7xs as much isk per hour people would have alts flipping the systems now to farm them.

TLDR: you and several others blaming the cashout structure for problems that the actual structure did not cause.


The real issue was and still remains what can we do to make plexing an actual pvp mechanic. That way by the time people made a sytem vulnerable they actually had enough ships explode to justify the pay. In other words the lp should be more of a reimbursement plan rather than a new way to carebear. And no I don't want the pay to be cut. I want the explosions to increase.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:

You dont think we could have swung the whole war zone? Im sceptical too. But there is no denying that as a militia we could probably get half a dozen squads of 4/6 dreadnought alts / people willing to drop their mains into cal mil, each squad capable of swinging a system in one siege cycle.

Its no different to what we did anyway. Its not hard to change into a shell corp thats already in cal mil..


You would swing the whole warzone for caldari? I am not sure why you would do that in the cashout system. But really that is sort of the point. The cashout system had some strategy. We may disagree on whether its a good idea to flip the other sides systems early. (there are other reasons why this may hurt your militia in the long run as well) But at least there is some room for reasonable people to discuss strategy. And there was allot of discussion of strategy! Now? Well no. The forever grind system we now have is pretty dumbed down.



Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Finally, no one cares if you are happy with gatecamping or anything else. Just that your reasons for being unhappy are that people are gaming the system. Most people are happy with the current status quo and accept it as a happy medium since the pvp in the game has never been so abundant and paying for it is viable without going out of your way too much. No one has suggested anything close to a fix that removes the negatives while maintaining the positives of the current system. Your solution is pathetic and would not fix the real reason you are unhappy with your eve experience - the obvious fact that you are pretty lazy.



I think there are other people who wish the pvp was more abundant and wish the pvp had more of a context. The people in faction war might be mostly content with it. Just like most catholic priests don't think the celebacy requirement is too stringent.

You and XG have stated your objections to what I propose and have been shot down repeatedly. You then drop the topic and just start repeating that my solution is "bad" or "pathetic". This is your and XG's MO. You just keep repeating the conclusory statement that letting people know where plexes are being captured won't help people contest them in pvp. Your view is completely irrational, but whatever.

Oh and I love the fact that you say I am lazy because I am not willing to spend even more time playing a computer game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

ALUCARD 1208
Death by Design.
#179 - 2013-03-14 16:27:03 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Oh and I love the fact that you say I am lazy because I am not willing to spend even more time playing a computer game.



So ccp should just hand you kills on a plate and tell you were the plexers are when u can be arsed to play?
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#180 - 2013-03-14 16:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Caldari were going to flip the vulnerable gallente systems in the last week leading up to the scheduled expansion. We were just going to swing them a week or so earlier so we could get the now caldari system back to vulnerable and swing them back to gallente just before the expansion.

The systems we actually did flip much earlier were swing because they were just sat there counting towards our system total. As we make a push to tier 5 the caldari could have just come and bashed the bunker. So before out tier 5 push, we simply swung them to caldari, farmed them back to vuln and swung them along with all the other systems as part of out push. This took the uncertainty out of our hands, and the ability for caldari to swing these now newly gallente systems to counter our cashout.

It is really clear that you are acutely ignorant of the meta game in fw. Explaining these things to you is pretty much like talking to a high sec carebear.

I know you are going to igore everything ive said here and just keep saying the same things over and over. Oh well.