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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#61 - 2012-08-15 13:20:22 UTC
Homo Jesus wrote:
I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish.
That'll still be classed as a separate thing and not theft, as the salvage doesn't belong to anyone.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mutant Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-08-15 13:46:49 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.

^This.

Dear carebears,
Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard.


P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold? Lol
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
#63 - 2012-08-15 13:46:52 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Homo Jesus wrote:
I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish.
That'll still be classed as a separate thing and not theft, as the salvage doesn't belong to anyone.



Yeah, probably but what I mean is just flipping a can flags you to all the players that will shoot ninja THIEVES which typically results in.....people have just been asking for a long time to make salvaging a crime while not understanding that's really NOT a good thing for them.

No need to make salvaging a crime just flip one can, hang at a good spot until someone gets a wild hair up their butt and runs to shoot something. No more scanning missions and stealing, can baiting, flipping ore cans, etc is necessary to get half-wits to aggress.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#64 - 2012-08-15 13:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Quaaid
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



As a can flipper, I approve this message. There is absolutely risk involved and if someone is 'pirate baiting' (this happens) then you are set up to lose as you cannot effectively aggro their Remote Reps and you are a sitting duck against their corp.

While rare. people do set alts out on belts to lure flippers and kill them with ease. I have even done this to run other flippers out of systems I flip in.
Alara IonStorm
#65 - 2012-08-15 13:55:22 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.

You forgot the smilie face to show that you were joking.

I'm not. The mechanics give a massive advantage to the victim. If kept away from newbies and utilized by players Can Flippers become nothing.

I thought you would know that Mara, you always seem to know a lot about EVE.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#66 - 2012-08-15 13:57:15 UTC
Unofficially renaming greyscales little baby to Failwatch.

It fails at far more than just canflipping mechanics, after all.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#67 - 2012-08-15 14:17:23 UTC
You lost me at Hi-sec PVP.

There is no Hi-sec PVP, there is only people who hide in Hi-sec, pretending to PVP.

I will always recommend the quick fix of finding a Low-sec gate.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-08-15 14:35:16 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?



I have a question for you. In this engagement, who fired the first shot?
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-08-15 14:36:29 UTC
Ned Black wrote:
[quote=Alara IonStorm]

Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.

If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.


Bullshit, its like you are saying all car dealers are assholes. Sure there are many assholes in that market but that doesnt mean "everybody" is an ass and carselling has to be removed. Same case here.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#70 - 2012-08-15 14:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mutant Caldari wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.

^This.

Dear carebears,
Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard.


P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold? Lol


Let me dissect this banter:

1) Those who can flip are not stupid, they can flip those newer characters doing professions (typically mining) with stats and skills which are incompatible with PvP. In the best case they have tank skills trained to IV (I am being optimistic here), just the bare minimum drone skills to kill belt NPCs and zero gunnery.

2) I have yet to see a can flipper EVER staying in there in anticipation of a "good fite" when he sees the other guy warps away. You are doing a big disservice to the category if you really pretend they make themselves sitting ducks waiting for the flipped guy to return with a real PvP ship.

3) The rare, extremely rare cases the responding target vaguely - and I mean it - looks like not dying then the can flippers *always* *always* go off themselves to reship.
I myself got one of them flipping my can (back in 2009, I was like 1 week in the game) and when I came back in a T1 fitted Rifter (so dangerous I had to fit a MAPC just to be able to fit guns) he warped out when my cap depleted (could not kill his tank) and came back with a Vaga and 4 RR alts (I did not spot Falcons Cool).


Anyway anyone who ever undocked knows how such category play, stop teasing like that, nobody believes you.

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Equus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-08-15 14:54:24 UTC
So much BS in this thread.

First, griefing is not PvP, griefing is going after newbs, slow people and anyone who cannot defend themselves. This is not PvP, the griefers try and claim it is, but it's not. They all decry it's a cold universe, danger is everywhere! But they scan targets and go after the weak, they don't want a "real" fight, they want to "tears" and to **** someone off. So, while griefing can lead to PvP, if having that newb try and fight back can even be considered PvP, ganking, can flipping, and all other forms of griefing != PvP.

PvP means a fight, and a good one, popping someone in a couple shots can be fun but it is usually boring, that fight that went back and forth where you came out with < 5% structure, that was a good one. Griefers, sorry "high-sec PvP'ers" don't like these fights, if they thought you stood a chance at all they would not attack you.

On that note, in regards to can flipping itself, while I don't know if it warrants a GCC flag, ALL alliance, corp and even fleet mates should be able to shoot you. I am with a buddy, I am there for protection, do you think in real life, if I was with a friend and someone tried to steal from him that I wouldn't help beat the **** out of the thief?

Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#72 - 2012-08-15 15:01:34 UTC
Equus wrote:
Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all.


If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks.

Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-08-15 15:01:49 UTC
It seems that not all players understand canflipping. So here are the rules

Person A = miner
Person B = pewpewguy


1. Person A mines into a secure can = Person B can do nothing except ganking > concord

2. Person A mines into a floatin can = Person B takes something out > now player A and his whole corp can shoot player B, but Player B can do nothing except if the miner takes the bait and shoots > then Player B is able to attack Player A. Btw. Player B's corp can do nothing the whole time except remoterepping what ofc. enable Player A to shoot at the remoterepping corpmate of Player B.

Pfew... not that simple. There are ways to be 100% safe:

1. Dont mine into a can.
2. Dont attack someone if he is red blinky because that usually means he is also able to shoot you.

So, to make this short:

A can flipper has to count on stupid decisions of the miner or there will be no fight at all for him.

There is no "ambush" of an innocent here: A miner has to take the first shot or has to steal something himself to get shot at.

If you steal something out of a can yourself then there will be a big fat warning window telling you something like "uh oh... watch out... u might get killed". If you ignore the window then then you deserve to be killed.

You should think about cans as a PVP-switch in other games. I can switch myself to "pvp" but that doesnt mean i can kill everybody from now on... it just means everybody is able to attack me and i can use self defence. Exactly the same here in eve.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-08-15 15:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Butzewutze
Equus wrote:
First, griefing is not PvP, griefing is going after newbs, slow people and anyone who cannot defend themselves. This is not PvP, the griefers try and claim it is, but it's not. They all decry it's a cold universe, danger is everywhere! But they scan targets and go after the weak, they don't want a "real" fight, they want to "tears" and to **** someone off. So, while griefing can lead to PvP, if having that newb try and fight back can even be considered PvP, ganking, can flipping, and all other forms of griefing != PvP.


Let me correct you. You don't think griefing is pvp but it actually is. If you take your time to read my other posts then you will see that can flipping is not griefing at all because the "victim" has to attack first to be killed.

If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: would you say i deserved it or would you say i got griefed?

Btw: Back in the good ol' days jetcans were "free for all" so everybody could take something out without getting flagged for pvp. Then miners suddenly realized that jetcans are like mobile ore-containers what is (imho) an exploit. Then other people realized that there might be cans filled with ore around so the miners cried and demanded a way to defend their "exploit". So the flagging mechanics were added... the miners were able to defend stuff they just threw away. Then some people realized that getting attacked usualy also means you are able to defend yourself -> miners getting blown up...

Why just not remove the whole canshit at all or revert it back to start -> no flagging at all. But really, i dont see why we should do the "miners" another favour here.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#75 - 2012-08-15 15:20:18 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Equus wrote:
Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all.


If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks.

Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time.


Everybody in EvE can hire mercs for self defense, now there are mechanics to help cooperation between the various figures.

However if you are a miner and hire mercs to defend you, they can do nothing even when their targets comes to kill the paying customer else it's :concord:
A mechanism should exist so that I don't have to wait for the other guy (invariably in NPC or 3 alts corp, they being the same who demand others to be social!) to get flagged also to me so that I can shoot at them.

As of now this mechanism only exists for those being in the same corp of the miner, it'd be cool the flag was extensible at least to the hired mercs.

Then let's see who comes crying on the forums, eh? Pirate

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2012-08-15 15:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Homo Jesus wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy.



Yep, who cares what a random know-nothing thinks will happen.

Crimewatch is easy mode for freighter pilots. You'll be able to fly around anywhere you want with whatever cargo in highsec because nobody's going to try ganking you. Why? Any freighter that gets ganked full of cargo will need freighters to scoop the loot. What happens when the freighter scoops the loot? With crimewatch, they'll get flagged to anyone and everyone and be kill on sight. Nobody's going to try ganking freighters because then anyone will be able to shoot your freighter.

If this isn't dumbing down the game, I don't know what is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-08-15 15:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Butzewutze
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Equus wrote:
Face it mechanics are broken, and while GCC flags may not be the answer to minor crimes, criminals should face more risk when performing their illicit deeds, Eve is a cold, unforgiving universe after all.


If miners would actually be in active corporations with other people to interact with (preposterous idea, i know) and would have used 30 minutes in their years of playing EVE to figure out some really basic game mechanics then they'd be able to defend themselves. Just as fitting a tank means you avoid most ganks.

Thing is ofcourse that we all know that the vast majority of miners refuses to do exactly this, a newbie not knowing stuff is perfectly fine but some moron who's been mining the last 3 years and STILL doesn't have the faintest clue on some basic game mechanics, that's just sad. Trust me. you run into those types all the time.


Everybody in EvE can hire mercs for self defense, now there are mechanics to help cooperation between the various figures.

However if you are a miner and hire mercs to defend you, they can do nothing even when their targets comes to kill the paying customer else it's :concord:
A mechanism should exist so that I don't have to wait for the other guy (invariably in NPC or 3 alts corp, they being the same who demand others to be social!) to get flagged also to me so that I can shoot at them.

As of now this mechanism only exists for those being in the same corp of the miner, it'd be cool the flag was extensible at least to the hired mercs.

Then let's see who comes crying on the forums, eh? Pirate


Hm? If you are mining with a corpmate sitting nearby in a combat ship and someone comes along and takes something out of your can then your corpmate can alpha him into oblivion. What more do you want? The miner never sees action in this case or even "danger" but he is able to participate if he "chooses" to. Why do we need to hire other people into that? Its allready pretty one sided, dont you think?

Do you want a way to shoot a guy that "might" harm your mining in predefence without the guy actually doing something? Are you serious?
Mutant Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-08-15 15:28:37 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mutant Caldari wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.

^This.

Dear carebears,
Learn the game mechanics, have a PvP ship docked up and some corp backup otherwise you will be can flipped and not be able to do anything about it. Except, you know, move systems. Oh wait, then you'd have to actually be at your keyboard.


P.S. Can flipping in the days of 35k m3 Mack ore hold? Lol


Let me dissect this banter:

1) Those who can flip are not stupid, they can flip those newer characters doing professions (typically mining) with stats and skills which are incompatible with PvP. In the best case they have tank skills trained to IV (I am being optimistic here), just the bare minimum drone skills to kill belt NPCs and zero gunnery.

2) I have yet to see a can flipper EVER staying in there in anticipation of a "good fite" when he sees the other guy warps away. You are doing a big disservice to the category if you really pretend they make themselves sitting ducks waiting for the flipped guy to return with a real PvP ship.

3) The rare, extremely rare cases the responding target vaguely - and I mean it - looks like not dying then the can flippers *always* *always* go off themselves to reship.
I myself got one of them flipping my can (back in 2009, I was like 1 week in the game) and when I came back in a T1 fitted Rifter (so dangerous I had to fit a MAPC just to be able to fit guns) he warped out when my cap depleted (could not kill his tank) and came back with a Vaga and 4 RR alts (I did not spot Falcons Cool).


Anyway anyone who ever undocked knows how such category play, stop teasing like that, nobody believes you.

As a new player, is it hard to read up on mechanics? Especially after the first, second and third time you lose a ship to them? A Mackinaw has an ore bay with, what, 35k m3? You shouldn't be jet can mining in that anyway. Retriever's is 27,500 with Barge 5. They've basically killed can flipping at this point with the introduction of the massive ore bays not to mention just being able to drop the ore in an Orca if you are in a Hulk and mining with corpies. As I said, if you don't have a PvP capable ship or corp backup you can always leave the system and continue mining elsewhere without actually engaging the can flipper. Is that concept really that hard to grasp for you guys?
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#79 - 2012-08-15 15:38:16 UTC
I think the new Idea for Crime watch is a bad idea as other people have said it makes ganking freighters in hi sec and stealing there loot impossible. I don't mine in empire so I don't know how bad the can flipping is. I really don't care that is something I don't want to do. If the flagging systems would extend to the fleet that the person is in I think it would make both the flippers and flippies happy as that is fair IMO. If the purposed idea of Crime watch goes through the population of eve will get dumber as they will expect CCP to hold their hands from the beginning of the game to the end like some other MMO and the whine threads on the forum will get more ridiculous as people say well we got this lets try to get this now till all of Hi sec is pvp free in any form. At what point in this game do people take responsibility for there own actions of not knowing game mechanics or refusing to use them as it will hamper there isk/hr?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-08-15 15:40:13 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.

Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...

You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins. There is ample mechanics in place to allow for all manner of scenarios, plans, strategies and results.

How is this not in the spirit of Eve?


Being able to take part in a fight without being a legal target isn't "in the spirit of Eve" and let's not pretend that it is, thanks.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar