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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

First post
Author
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#21 - 2012-08-15 08:22:27 UTC
from what I can tell they want to make it so ganking is all but impossible...(See mainstreaming EVE). So if you can flip someone an flag, that will mean everyone in HS can kill you, not just that person. Apparently miners are going into the business of "professional victims R US."

So the next stage is CCP making it so HS will be EVE's version of wow's Astrinarr....
I had this discussion in Scope chat. Apparently miners dont see why it's fair that "THEY" have to get payback, when its only fair that everyone in EVE should be allowed too....

Give me ******* strength lol I hope to hell they dont do this, Even CCP cant be that stupid to make this wow in space.
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#22 - 2012-08-15 08:26:15 UTC
Qel Hoth wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?




In this particular kill, there was little risk... which is why you were targeted.

Don't want to get ganked? Make yourself a harder target.

In a player corp, your entire corp can attack the can flipper as soon as he loots your wreck. The flipper can't attack ANYONE until you or a corpmate shoots him first, and even then he can only attack those that are aggressing him, anyone else and he gets concorded.

EVE is not safe, nor was it meant to be, and the less friends you have the less safe it becomes.


That was the old EVE mate, the "new" EVE is going to be nice, friendly an cuddly. eg wow in space. Again a simple matter of self responsibility, an i garentee you every single miner will utterly ignore it. I know in Scope you tell them time an time an time again to ignore ninjas, an 30 seconds ...

"waaaaa gimmi a new ship this bad man is griefing me, so I reported him. Will CCP give me a new ship?....

mind boggling.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#23 - 2012-08-15 08:28:39 UTC
Tarassse wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.


The mechanic is sh*t atm. Let's suppose I'm in a mining fleet with a few allymates. A canflipper comes by and steals ore in a can belonging to a guy who is not in my corp, but is in my fleet AND in my alliance.
I cannot attack the canflipper. How is that even logical?
You would think you could help your allymates other than just remoting them, hoping for the canflipper to make a mistake and attack you.

To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5.

Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it.

Remember the video "Butterfly effect"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo

You can help the miner against the pirates, even though you don't know him. I don't see why it should be possible only in low/null.
It's about time.


I'm perfectly ok with expanding aggression to alliance level, I'm not ok with expanding it to "everyone".
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#24 - 2012-08-15 08:35:22 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from.


For the same reason people use scouts, alts and spies in 0.0 or anywhere else, to control the scenario. If you jump into low sec or 0.0 you can check local and know what you're up against, if you're in high sec with 100 ppl in local and you're aggressed to everyone that creates many unknowns when you decide to commit to a fight, especially as those potential 100 can choose the exact timing of entering the scenario, and I'm not even going to mention the fcking [email protected] idea of having some of the defending logistics NOT be aggressed in certain situations.



You see. You want the control. Only commit to Canflipping when you KNOW you have the upper hand. It is generally called bullying. aka cowardice. This is comfirmed by the tears generated by this mechanic. Now you see Canflippers too scared to perform the action, because of the potential consequences. All this from people who want "PVP"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2012-08-15 08:37:51 UTC
This will make my pvp haulers life very hard indeed. Biggest upset however will be looting people wrecks that dont belong to you, which I bet will get far more nubs killed than currently die to jetcan accidents.
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#26 - 2012-08-15 08:39:09 UTC
The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets.
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-08-15 08:41:32 UTC
Great news, been waiting a long time for that.


Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk

Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-08-15 08:42:52 UTC
Melodee619 wrote:
The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets.


Awwww is that tears, I can no longer steal with no comeback Cry there there

Tal

I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk

Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#29 - 2012-08-15 08:46:30 UTC
Rats wrote:
Melodee619 wrote:
The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets.


Awwww is that tears, I can no longer steal with no comeback Cry there there

Tal



thank you for just reinforcing my point, ... miners you lot remind me of Millwall football club, no bottle,leg it at first sign of an adult....
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#30 - 2012-08-15 08:47:06 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from.


For the same reason people use scouts, alts and spies in 0.0 or anywhere else, to control the scenario. If you jump into low sec or 0.0 you can check local and know what you're up against, if you're in high sec with 100 ppl in local and you're aggressed to everyone that creates many unknowns when you decide to commit to a fight, especially as those potential 100 can choose the exact timing of entering the scenario, and I'm not even going to mention the fcking [email protected] idea of having some of the defending logistics NOT be aggressed in certain situations.


Well, miners have to deal with 100 in local too, each of those 100 can kill them just for a laugh and in complete safety (fear the retriever offensive POWAH!).

So what?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#31 - 2012-08-15 08:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
baltec1 wrote:
This will make my pvp haulers life very hard indeed. Biggest upset however will be looting people wrecks that dont belong to you, which I bet will get far more nubs killed than currently die to jetcan accidents.


Same advice given to miners by you and the other resident though men: loot while aligned, make bookmarks, fit a tank.
I am able to do it and I am not even a ganker (I just have fun ninjaing T2 salvage in their face), figures.
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#32 - 2012-08-15 08:50:24 UTC
Crime watch devs assured us changes would be well documented before any changes would be implemented. This discussion is irrelevant till they do.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#33 - 2012-08-15 08:52:49 UTC
Ned Black wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim.

Please tell me the zero risk was ironic.


Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.

If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.


It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be.
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#34 - 2012-08-15 08:56:41 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Ned Black wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim.

Please tell me the zero risk was ironic.


Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.

If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.


It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be.


Which they do, after all god forbid they had to do something for themselves lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2012-08-15 08:58:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This will make my pvp haulers life very hard indeed. Biggest upset however will be looting people wrecks that dont belong to you, which I bet will get far more nubs killed than currently die to jetcan accidents.


Same advice given to miners by you and the other resident though men: loot while aligned, make bookmarks, fit a tank.
I am able to do it and I am not even a ganker (I just have fun ninjaing T2 salvage in their face), figures.


I flip cans to get the fight so warping off isnt very smart on that front. Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. This change will expose a lot more to the bad guys guns while the nasty people who flip cans for fights will continue to do so. Once again, the bears are fighting for something they think will make them safer but will end up still being killed and their tears of rage will be all the greater for it.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#36 - 2012-08-15 09:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Well, miners have to deal with 100 in local too, each of those 100 can kill them just for a laugh and in complete safety (fear the retriever offensive POWAH!).

So what?


No, they don't.

First of all it's not safe at all, if they suicide gank they lose their ships (which can be avoided if only people would CHOOSE to tank their mining ships, the old Hulk could easily get 25k EHP on its own, more than enough to require 3 tornados to gank it resulting in it not being a target). Secondly if they got can flipped it's because they CHOSE to use cans in the first place, then they have the CHOICE to attack the flipper and they can CHOOSE to use as many corp members as they want.

Not my fault Miners adopted this autistic idea that they play eve in solo mode and not be in an active, non-zombie corp while not being prepared. Ignorance and zero-effort should not be rewarded, active non-idiot miners did perfectly fine through Hulkageddons and can flips.
Ned Black
Driders
#37 - 2012-08-15 09:31:54 UTC
Melodee619 wrote:
The idea of being responsible for yourself has completely gone out window with todays eve players... it doesn't matter that can flipping is irrelevant, an it doesn't matter that you can just ignore them.... they WANT am DEMAND CCP protect them from themselves. muppets.


Actually, nobody is keeping you from doing that can flip... you can go right ahead and do it... but if you do then there will open season on your arse... and personally I find that very fun indeed.

But I guess its a bit like the remove local discussion... removing local from nullsec would introduce real risk, and the people crying the hardest about that are usually the ones calling the people that wants to be rid of local cowards... yet they display in every way that the biggest chickens of the bunch are themselves... same here... the ones crying the hardest here are the ones that suddely have to face actual risk and concequence of their actions.

I welcome crimewatch even if I wont be around to see it in action :p
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#38 - 2012-08-15 09:33:16 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Well, miners have to deal with 100 in local too, each of those 100 can kill them just for a laugh and in complete safety (fear the retriever offensive POWAH!).

So what?


No, they don't.

First of all it's not safe at all, if they suicide gank they lose their ships (which can be avoided if only people would CHOOSE to tank their mining ships, the old Hulk could easily get 25k EHP on its own, more than enough to require 3 tornados to gank it resulting in it not being a target). Secondly if they got can flipped it's because they CHOSE to use cans in the first place, then they have the CHOICE to attack the flipper and they can CHOOSE to use as many corp members as they want.

Not my fault Miners adopted this autistic idea that they play eve in solo mode and not be in an active, non-zombie corp while not being prepared. Ignorance and zero-effort should not be rewarded, active non-idiot miners did perfectly fine through Hulkageddons and can flips.


1) I don't know of ANY ganker worth his name who does not pre-scan the ships and cherry picks those with bad tank (usually the case) / using stupid deadspace small shield booster and so on. So the "which can be avoided" is mooth as it's you who select who to gank not vice versa.

2) You talk like you are attacking 3 years old players who learned better than to jet can. No, those who get flipped are newbs or bads (bads go farm other bads after all, in other MMOs they'd be laughed after and their guild would gain a bad name).

Then there's this often GD written "advice" of leaving drones out on active, and guess what happens next?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#39 - 2012-08-15 09:35:55 UTC
The changes will do 2 things:

A: Committing minor criminal acts (i.e. can flipping in this case) will mark you as suspect. This makes you attackable by all.
B: People will be prevented from stealing from cans, unless they turn their safeties off. Not a 'click through' dialog box, but a 'go here and turn there options off, then they're off until you turn them back on'.

At least, if the fanfest presentation was anything to go by.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2012-08-15 09:41:39 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
They don't can flip a guy in a Vagabond


that's probably because vagabonds aren't well-known for being used to mine

i'm glad we have cleared that up

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar