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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

First post
Author
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-08-15 15:41:38 UTC
MIrple wrote:
I think the new Idea for Crime watch is a bad idea as other people have said it makes ganking freighters in hi sec and stealing there loot impossible. I don't mine in empire so I don't know how bad the can flipping is. I really don't care that is something I don't want to do. If the flagging systems would extend to the fleet that the person is in I think it would make both the flippers and flippies happy as that is fair IMO. If the purposed idea of Crime watch goes through the population of eve will get dumber as they will expect CCP to hold their hands from the beginning of the game to the end like some other MMO and the whine threads on the forum will get more ridiculous as people say well we got this lets try to get this now till all of Hi sec is pvp free in any form. At what point in this game do people take responsibility for there own actions of not knowing game mechanics or refusing to use them as it will hamper there isk/hr?


Flagging for the whole gang would not be fair at all like we have seen in the previous exploits around wardecs + missions for example > loftyscam.

CCPs Greyscale wrote:
"The "lofty scam" has been neutered in Empyrean Age (gang membership now has no bearing on aggression rules) so this is no longer an issue (!)"

I dont see why we should fix what have been fixed.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2012-08-15 15:43:11 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
Flagging for the whole gang would not be fair at all like we have seen in the previous exploits around wardecs + missions for example > loftyscam.

CCPs Greyscale wrote:
"The "lofty scam" has been neutered in Empyrean Age (gang membership now has no bearing on aggression rules) so this is no longer an issue (!)"

I dont see why we should fix what have been fixed.


on the other hand, not flagging RR and boosting alts and all that crap just makes everything hilariously one-sided

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#83 - 2012-08-15 15:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Altrue wrote:
I don't see what's the point :
You steal someting in the middle of a public space, it should be normal if others were allowed to try to stop you.

And then, piracy in high sec would make you feel like a true pirate : after commiting your act and being discovered, you have to escape with half of the universe behind you.

Also don't tell me that this change leaves you less possibilities to PvP. What you're practicing : suicide ganks, can flipping miners, etc... Can't be called PvP, it's butchery. And you're probably doing that because you can't do some true PvP with true targets.

So, basically you're using a derived part of PvP based on lack of knowledge / skill from the target.. that's acceptable, but don't expect things to stay how they are : broken because the risk/reward is in your favor in most of the cases (and when it is not, you engaged thinking it was).

Can flipper/suicide gankers tears best tears.

Edit : Oh and basically CCP wants to make money. This point is also acceptable and expected. Griefing noobs or people in general that were not expecting that kind of thing, create unsub : less money. That's normal to see CCP fixing this part.


totally agree, well said. Can flippers get to chose their targets and they most often will pick the target that has the least chance of fighting back.

I didnt see explain to me how more risk to can flipping "breaks" can flipping. I guess Pipa is just typing nonsense onto these forums once again.
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-08-15 15:43:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.

Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...

You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins. There is ample mechanics in place to allow for all manner of scenarios, plans, strategies and results.

How is this not in the spirit of Eve?


Being able to take part in a fight without being a legal target isn't "in the spirit of Eve" and let's not pretend that it is, thanks.


If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2012-08-15 15:45:31 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target.


Or maybe you could put my post into context rather than reading it selectively and replying with something that's completely unrelated to the subject matter.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#86 - 2012-08-15 15:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Vilnius Zar wrote:
People have to stop mixing up things. Can flipping is one of the few ways to attack newbies in high sec without getting concorded but that doesn't mean that can flipping as a mechanic is "broken" or "without risk".

If you can flip a whole mining corps with players who've been in the game for years and have lots of SP, ships and (hopefully) experience to counter it then it becomes a tad different. The game mechanics DO favour the defender, they can choose to attack... or not, they can choose to attack with multiple pilots in their corp... or not. That's also where the real profit is in can flipping; Older pilots coming back in shiny ships and then get killed/ransomed. a "proper" can flipper doesn't care about your retriever or Itty 5, he cares about the bling stuff you come back in or your corp mates in their CNRs.

There's a few reasons why can flipping will be messed up with the new system:

- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.

- because CCP is unable to code it properly (or unwilling to put the time into it as they "don't see the need", as they're carebears themselves) you end up with only one aggression timer. As it is now you can be aggressed to the whole corp for 5 minutes while still being aggressed to the guy that attacked you for another 10, giving you a window of opportunity. Removing that (or thinking it's wrong., like CCP seems to do) means you cater for the dumb people, the lazy carebears and is mostly about being too lazy to code it properly.


Can flipping (relative) newbies is a bit sad but that doesn't mean that as a mechanic it's broken or needs changing, it really does favour the defender (assuming the defender has the SP and playtime to be able to create a proper reaction). Thing is ofcourse that many miners CHOOSE to stay clueless and unprepared even after years of playing, and CCP should never cater for that mindset.

If you get flipped you have a choice, if you don't want to get can flipped you also have a choice. If you choose to AND use jetcans AND attack the ones who stole a bit of ore from you THEN you might get in trouble if you CHOOSE to not be prepared. So yes, it does favour the defender.


How does it favor the defender when the can flipper gets to choose his targets? He can simply pick someone who does not have the capacity to retaliate against him. So how does can flipping favor the victim again?

This is why what CCP is doing is such a great change. Can flippers can no longer choose targets where they will have 0 risk of retaliation.
Butzewutze
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-08-15 15:53:35 UTC
Andski wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
If you would know what you are talking about then we would respect your thoughts... but actually you aren't. Read my posts above: The Miner always have to take the first shot and that makes him into a legal target.


Or maybe you could put my post into context rather than reading it selectively and replying with something that's completely unrelated to the subject matter.


I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.

If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2012-08-15 15:54:45 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
How does it favor the defender when the can flipper gets to choose his targets? He can simply pick someone who does not have the capacity to retaliate against him. So how does can flipping favor the victim again?

This is why what CCP is doing is such a great change. Can flippers can no longer choose targets where they will have 0 risk of retaliation.


otoh, "defenseless" mining ships don't tend to jetcan mine since anybody in a Hulk or Covetor ~generally~ knows better. Mackinaws/Retrievers don't need to jetcan mine, Skiffs/Procurers just serve as good canflip bait.

non-barge mining ships can easily be used as bait.

crimewatch is stupid

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2012-08-15 15:55:15 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.

If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure.


i'll just stop you there and let you know that I was referring to RR in the context of fighting suspect-flagged players

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Butzewutze
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-08-15 15:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Butzewutze
Andski wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
I were relating to the "legal target" that you were talking about.

If you choose to shoot me while you are in your barge then you are a legal target for sure.


i'll just stop you there and let you know that I was referring to RR in the context of fighting suspect-flagged players


Then i just misunderstood you. Sorry Blink
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#91 - 2012-08-15 16:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
baltec1 wrote:
Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. .


Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2012-08-15 16:04:33 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. .


Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec.


this can already happen

it's simple: join a corp

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-08-15 16:06:29 UTC
I disagree with the whole mentality of "real PVPers do X, therefore let's get rid of everything that isn't X".

It's the same exact thing as saying "I don't like the way you play, so I don't think you should be able to play that way."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Butzewutze
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2012-08-15 16:06:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Butzewutze
Nerf Burger wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Gotta remember, these changes are to "protect the nubs" from the nasty people. .


Not at all. If they wanted to protect the nubs, they could make concording for canflipping in high sec. This change is about adding some actual risk to being a douchebag. No longer can awful players choose the riskless "pvp" they desire, they will actually have to take a risk of being attackable by anyone, not just their chosen target. Like other players have said, can flippers are out for easy kills, they will dock the very moment they feel they might be in danger. Real pvpers get their kills outside high sec.


You somehow think that highsec should be a pvp-free zone. Do you understand that this doesnt fit into the design of eve at all? There is pvp everywhere and pvp is also legit everywhere, against any target.

Let me ask it this way: If i punch you in the face and you beat me up after that: Would you call me a nub and yourself a douchebag?

The same scenario happens here. No miner gets attacked or freely choosen and blown up by a flipper... the miner has to take the first shot.
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-08-15 16:09:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Crimewatch is easy mode for freighter pilots. You'll be able to fly around anywhere you want with whatever cargo in highsec because nobody's going to try ganking you. Why? Any freighter that gets ganked full of cargo will need freighters to scoop the loot. What happens when the freighter scoops the loot? With crimewatch, they'll get flagged to anyone and everyone and be kill on sight. Nobody's going to try ganking freighters because then anyone will be able to shoot your freighter.

If this isn't dumbing down the game, I don't know what is.


You mean it would prevent unskilled solo pirate wannabes from "ganking" a freighter, if you wanted to "gank" a freighter and get the contents you would simply need protection to do so, in what way is this "dumbing the game down"? It is the opposite it makes it more involved, harder and promotes teamwork on a small scale.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#96 - 2012-08-15 16:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Quaaid wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



As a can flipper, I approve this message. There is absolutely risk involved and if someone is 'pirate baiting' (this happens) then you are set up to lose as you cannot effectively aggro their Remote Reps and you are a sitting duck against their corp.

While rare. people do set alts out on belts to lure flippers and kill them with ease. I have even done this to run other flippers out of systems I flip in.


no, potentially zero risk is right. The can fiipper get to chooses his target, no the other way around, and he can easily pick a target that has no chance of retaliation. Its natural that theives would be attackable by anyone after they stole. To say can fights are 100% in favor of the victim is 100% moronic.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#97 - 2012-08-15 16:13:38 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:

Hm? If you are mining with a corpmate sitting nearby in a combat ship and someone comes along and takes something out of your can then your corpmate can alpha him into oblivion. What more do you want?


... that the miner can legitimately hire me to kill stuff (before it fires). As of now it's frustrating to see the targets come close and have to wait for them to open fire or do something.


Butzewutze wrote:

The miner never sees action in this case or even "danger" but he is able to participate if he "chooses" to. Why do we need to hire other people into that? Its allready pretty one sided, dont you think?


Why, mercs exist and I don't recall them having to signup an EULA to play only when the targets have it fair.


Butzewutze wrote:

Do you want a way to shoot a guy that "might" harm your mining in predefence without the guy actually doing something? Are you serious?


Considering I proposed on the Ideas forum ways to make hi sec like 0.0 and remove concord and NPCs? Heh for what I care there shold be only few hi sec islands for newbies and the rest free for all.

I understand "Pro hi sec PvPers" being scared even just at the vague mention of "free for all, no cheesy stupid NPCs in the middle".
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#98 - 2012-08-15 16:14:51 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?



I have a question for you. In this engagement, who fired the first shot?



The canflipper. I took back what I thought was my stuff. I didnt know what canflipping was. What it entailed. Yes I got the warning but there was nobody around. I was well, and truely suckered into a LM.

I was a prime target. A noob newb. What these guys prey on. While you cannot fix stupid. THIS enables the new and vulnerable to have some active protection. Not just a week long wait for a petition.

Butzewutze
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2012-08-15 16:14:55 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
no, potentially zero risk is right. The can fiipper get to chooses his target, no the other way around, and he can easily pick a target that has no chance of retaliation. Its natural that theives would be attackable by anyone after they stole. To say can fights are 100% in favor of the victim is 100% moronic.


Where did the bad guy touch you? Show me with this doll...

Seriously, you are telling nonsense.
Jaison Savrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2012-08-15 16:24:44 UTC
I had four friends I tried to get into this game. Three of them wanted to be miners. While they were still in a newbie corp and jet can mining out of frigates one of them got can flipped. When he was attacked the other two tried to help him and got concorded.


They do not play anymore because it was such a worthless and cowardly mechanic. They assumed all of Eve would be on that level.

Anything that makes that not be viable is worth it. Can flippers are among the most worthless people in Eve. They only target people they are 100% sure they can beat. Yes, the mechanics can be read as it being risky by the person being in a corp etc etc...

That is not the reality. Can flippers know how to bend the mechanics to suit them and thus find ways to eliminate the risk. This is not being smart. This is being worthless. It is not PvP. It is not "l33t". It is people who are bullies. People who have no back bones. People who are more afraid of a loss mail than your average miner. I hope the new can flipping mechanics start to result in the decimation of this playstyle. I would like my three friends to try Eve again without being chased off by bullies in their first few days.