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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

First post
Author
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-08-15 04:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
This person, Pipa Porto, told me that the upcomming crimewatch changes will "break" can flipping and I'm curious as to how. Can anyone explain it? I couldn't get an answer from Pipa. Here is the quote from another thread.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1796952#post1796952

Pipa Porto wrote:


HS PVP is available in 4 forms.
Can Flipping.
Wardecs.
Suicide Ganks.
AWOXing.

Wardecs are broken.
This will break Can Flipping.
So all that's left is Suicide Ganks. And since Ganking Freighters will be effectively impossible to make profitable (your looting freighter will be globally flagged, thus dead), Guess what's gonna increase in frequency..
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#2 - 2012-08-15 04:42:00 UTC
Awoxing, think I got the answer.

At least till that gets nerfed. Luckily all my hi sec capitals and stuff are hidden so I don't have to worry much. Suppose people with deadspace and officer gear would have to.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-08-15 05:47:07 UTC
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.
Alara IonStorm
#4 - 2012-08-15 05:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.
Ned Black
Driders
#5 - 2012-08-15 06:04:55 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones = near guaranteed escape and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim.

Please tell me the zero risk was ironic.


Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.

If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#6 - 2012-08-15 06:06:15 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-08-15 06:13:28 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.


lol thanks for the laugh

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Qel Hoth
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-08-15 06:17:11 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?




In this particular kill, there was little risk... which is why you were targeted.

Don't want to get ganked? Make yourself a harder target.

In a player corp, your entire corp can attack the can flipper as soon as he loots your wreck. The flipper can't attack ANYONE until you or a corpmate shoots him first, and even then he can only attack those that are aggressing him, anyone else and he gets concorded.

EVE is not safe, nor was it meant to be, and the less friends you have the less safe it becomes.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-08-15 06:17:55 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
This person, Pipa Porto, told me that the upcomming crimewatch changes will "break" can flipping and I'm curious as to how. Can anyone explain it? I couldn't get an answer from Pipa. Here is the quote from another thread.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1796952#post1796952


They were talking about changing how aggression and such works and they wanted to remove target specific shoot rights to make it more clear who you can shoot and what consequences that will have. This would mean that can flipping would mark you as a criminal and anyone would be able to shoot you, not just the owners corp.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#10 - 2012-08-15 06:22:23 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
This person, Pipa Porto, told me that the upcomming crimewatch changes will "break" can flipping and I'm curious as to how. Can anyone explain it? I couldn't get an answer from Pipa. Here is the quote from another thread.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1796952#post1796952

Pipa Porto wrote:


HS PVP is available in 4 forms.
Can Flipping.
Wardecs.
Suicide Ganks.
AWOXing.

Wardecs are broken.
This will break Can Flipping.
So all that's left is Suicide Ganks. And since Ganking Freighters will be effectively impossible to make profitable (your looting freighter will be globally flagged, thus dead), Guess what's gonna increase in frequency..


It will be game breaking, because those who are in for the "PvP" in reality are just in to crack someone else's balls without retort.

They don't can flip a guy in a Vagabond, but the guy in a mining Osprey.

After the change, they would actually have a chance to get all that so hard sought after "PvP".
But for them, PvP is "I kill you to pulp, you won't fire a shot" or else they dock.

Their first name is Lionheart Lol

The second is Hypocrite coward.
Alara IonStorm
#11 - 2012-08-15 06:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Ned Black wrote:

Thats a load of crock. Can flippers are after easy kills plain and simple.

What they are after and what they get are too entirely different things. I have spelled out a bunch of advantages in the victims favor, it is up to them to use those advantages to win.

Ned Black wrote:

If the victim of the flip falls for the trap then how many times does he come out on top? If the victim manages to kill 1/10 flippers he is pretty good. I say again, the flipper is hoping for an easy kill. If flipping cans would kill the flipper 9/10 instead of the other way around I kind of doubt people would be flipping very much at all.

They would not flip if the victim won and since they have the advantage they can win.

malcovas Henderson wrote:

Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?

CCP is actively cracking down on people who target newer players who do not understand the games mechanics yet. That is in CCP's definition of griefing now.

A more skilled and informed player could return in a proper ship and use the advantages I spelled out to get an almost sure kill. CCP just have to make sure Newbies have the protection they need, with that it is very easy for a smart victim to turn the tables.

If you came back in a Vexor today do you think you would have lost that fight?

Sentamon wrote:

lol thanks for the laugh

When you stop laughing reread it then use all those tips to your advantage.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#12 - 2012-08-15 06:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
I don't see what's the point :
You steal someting in the middle of a public space, it should be normal if others were allowed to try to stop you.

And then, piracy in high sec would make you feel like a true pirate : after commiting your act and being discovered, you have to escape with half of the universe behind you.

Also don't tell me that this change leaves you less possibilities to PvP. What you're practicing : suicide ganks, can flipping miners, etc... Can't be called PvP, it's butchery. And you're probably doing that because you can't do some true PvP with true targets.

So, basically you're using a derived part of PvP based on lack of knowledge / skill from the target.. that's acceptable, but don't expect things to stay how they are : broken because the risk/reward is in your favor in most of the cases (and when it is not, you engaged thinking it was).

Can flipper/suicide gankers tears best tears.

Edit : Oh and basically CCP wants to make money. This point is also acceptable and expected. Griefing noobs or people in general that were not expecting that kind of thing, create unsub : less money. That's normal to see CCP fixing this part.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

malcovas Henderson
THoF
#13 - 2012-08-15 06:57:14 UTC
Qel Hoth wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:


Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?




In this particular kill, there was little risk... which is why you were targeted.

Don't want to get ganked? Make yourself a harder target.

In a player corp, your entire corp can attack the can flipper as soon as he loots your wreck. The flipper can't attack ANYONE until you or a corpmate shoots him first, and even then he can only attack those that are aggressing him, anyone else and he gets concorded.

EVE is not safe, nor was it meant to be, and the less friends you have the less safe it becomes.



This is the Target can flippers look for. I was still in a NPC corp. Still learning the game. So I had no corp mates to turn to. TBH I detest canflippers even more than I detest Gankers. At least Gankers prey on characters that should know the game a bit better.



malcovas Henderson
THoF
#14 - 2012-08-15 07:05:13 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:

Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?


CCP is actively cracking down on people who target newer players who do not understand the games mechanics yet. That is in CCP's definition of griefing now.

A more skilled and informed player could return in a proper ship and use the advantages I spelled out to get an almost sure kill. CCP just have to make sure Newbies have the protection they need, with that it is very easy for a smart victim to turn the tables.

If you came back in a Vexor today do you think you would have lost that fight?



I understand what you are trying to say, but in reality the canflipper is still griefing newbs away from protected areas.

I Bait canflippers from time to time. I use a brand new alt in a bantem. mining into a can I dropped. Try it one day, and even you'd have to reconsider your stance on this matter.
Alara IonStorm
#15 - 2012-08-15 07:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
malcovas Henderson wrote:

This is the Target can flippers look for. I was still in a NPC corp. Still learning the game. So I had no corp mates to turn to. TBH I detest canflippers even more than I detest Gankers. At least Gankers prey on characters that should know the game a bit better.

TBH I too detest can flippers for entirely the same reason as you but opposite circumstances.

I went out canflipping in a mix Logi / Combat Arbitrator when I was new with a friend I met. He wanted to kill things in an Itty and I helped him take out a Retty with my Reps but his Corp Mate attacked me with a Tyrannis, my first T2 Ship Kill. So later I decided to do it on my own and after 20 or so systems I got a bite from a Cruiser in my now full combat fit Arbitrator. It went down fast and then he came in hauler still aggressed so I smashed that too. Looking at the mails he was a newbie so I convo'd the guy and paid him back for his troubles, apologized and tried to explain how I did it so it wouldn't happen again. I still feel bad to about it to this day, worse that it was a starter system (I did not know the rules about that at the time and found out later.)

I think I killed a Dessy as well, after that I was done with can tipping. I realized mostly new players bit the bait and there weren't any fun fights like I read about on C&P. I tried killing flippers using a bait Mining Vexor with 3 T1 show Drones and Duel Webs, it worked remarkably well.

I don't like how can flipping works but think they should find a rework to the system that gives fun fights instead. I do like their fleet aggression idea as a replacement for dropping a can for PvP. I do stand by my post that flippers are very easy to kill for a knowledgeable player. The trick with that would be removing newbie flak. Not that I would ever can tip again personally, it just isn't a fun way to get fights.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-08-15 07:13:41 UTC
I'm more concerned about the implications this would have on freighter ganking and looting.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#17 - 2012-08-15 07:24:27 UTC
People have to stop mixing up things. Can flipping is one of the few ways to attack newbies in high sec without getting concorded but that doesn't mean that can flipping as a mechanic is "broken" or "without risk".

If you can flip a whole mining corps with players who've been in the game for years and have lots of SP, ships and (hopefully) experience to counter it then it becomes a tad different. The game mechanics DO favour the defender, they can choose to attack... or not, they can choose to attack with multiple pilots in their corp... or not. That's also where the real profit is in can flipping; Older pilots coming back in shiny ships and then get killed/ransomed. a "proper" can flipper doesn't care about your retriever or Itty 5, he cares about the bling stuff you come back in or your corp mates in their CNRs.

There's a few reasons why can flipping will be messed up with the new system:

- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.

- because CCP is unable to code it properly (or unwilling to put the time into it as they "don't see the need", as they're carebears themselves) you end up with only one aggression timer. As it is now you can be aggressed to the whole corp for 5 minutes while still being aggressed to the guy that attacked you for another 10, giving you a window of opportunity. Removing that (or thinking it's wrong., like CCP seems to do) means you cater for the dumb people, the lazy carebears and is mostly about being too lazy to code it properly.


Can flipping (relative) newbies is a bit sad but that doesn't mean that as a mechanic it's broken or needs changing, it really does favour the defender (assuming the defender has the SP and playtime to be able to create a proper reaction). Thing is ofcourse that many miners CHOOSE to stay clueless and unprepared even after years of playing, and CCP should never cater for that mindset.

If you get flipped you have a choice, if you don't want to get can flipped you also have a choice. If you choose to AND use jetcans AND attack the ones who stole a bit of ore from you THEN you might get in trouble if you CHOOSE to not be prepared. So yes, it does favour the defender.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#18 - 2012-08-15 08:08:08 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
People have to stop mixing up things. Can flipping is one of the few ways to attack newbies in high sec without getting concorded but that doesn't mean that can flipping as a mechanic is "broken" or "without risk".

If you can flip a whole mining corps with players who've been in the game for years and have lots of SP, ships and (hopefully) experience to counter it then it becomes a tad different. The game mechanics DO favour the defender, they can choose to attack... or not, they can choose to attack with multiple pilots in their corp... or not. That's also where the real profit is in can flipping; Older pilots coming back in shiny ships and then get killed/ransomed. a "proper" can flipper doesn't care about your retriever or Itty 5, he cares about the bling stuff you come back in or your corp mates in their CNRs.

There's a few reasons why can flipping will be messed up with the new system:

- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.

- because CCP is unable to code it properly (or unwilling to put the time into it as they "don't see the need", as they're carebears themselves) you end up with only one aggression timer. As it is now you can be aggressed to the whole corp for 5 minutes while still being aggressed to the guy that attacked you for another 10, giving you a window of opportunity. Removing that (or thinking it's wrong., like CCP seems to do) means you cater for the dumb people, the lazy carebears and is mostly about being too lazy to code it properly.


Can flipping (relative) newbies is a bit sad but that doesn't mean that as a mechanic it's broken or needs changing, it really does favour the defender (assuming the defender has the SP and playtime to be able to create a proper reaction). Thing is ofcourse that many miners CHOOSE to stay clueless and unprepared even after years of playing, and CCP should never cater for that mindset.

If you get flipped you have a choice, if you don't want to get can flipped you also have a choice. If you choose to AND use jetcans AND attack the ones who stole a bit of ore from you THEN you might get in trouble if you CHOOSE to not be prepared. So yes, it does favour the defender.


You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#19 - 2012-08-15 08:19:32 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
You see? this is where I do not get it. Gankers, and Canflippers want PVP. This gives them a broad spectrum of potential PVP. Lets be honest here. If you really wanted PVP in Hi sec. you would not care where it came from.


For the same reason people use scouts, alts and spies in 0.0 or anywhere else, to control the scenario. If you jump into low sec or 0.0 you can check local and know what you're up against, if you're in high sec with 100 ppl in local and you're aggressed to everyone that creates many unknowns when you decide to commit to a fight, especially as those potential 100 can choose the exact timing of entering the scenario, and I'm not even going to mention the fcking [email protected] idea of having some of the defending logistics NOT be aggressed in certain situations.
Tarassse
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-08-15 08:21:46 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
- instead of being aggressed to the corp you just can flipped you'll be aggressed to everyone. Apart from the fact that it's silly it also takes away for the need in mining corps to have their own defences (and an allround corp) because "someone else" can take care of problem. The simple fact of being aggressed to everyone makes it an uncontrolled scenario that severely favours the defenders, and before ppl go "bawww", controlling the scenario happens everywhere in pvp.


The mechanic is sh*t atm. Let's suppose I'm in a mining fleet with a few allymates. A canflipper comes by and steals ore in a can belonging to a guy who is not in my corp, but is in my fleet AND in my alliance.
I cannot attack the canflipper. How is that even logical?
You would think you could help your allymates other than just remoting them, hoping for the canflipper to make a mistake and attack you.

To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5.

Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it.

Remember the video "Butterfly effect"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo

You can help the miner against the pirates, even though you don't know him. I don't see why it should be possible only in low/null.
It's about time.
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