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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-08-15 09:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Tarassse wrote:
To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5.

Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it.


flipping a can doesn't get you a GCC, so it is not a crime

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#42 - 2012-08-15 09:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
1) I don't know of ANY ganker worth his name who does not pre-scan the ships and cherry picks those with bad tank (usually the case) / using stupid deadspace small shield booster and so on. So the "which can be avoided" is mooth as it's you who select who to gank not vice versa.

2) You talk like you are attacking 3 years old players who learned better than to jet can. No, those who get flipped are newbs or bads (bads go farm other bads after all, in other MMOs they'd be laughed after and their guild would gain a bad name).

Then there's this often GD written "advice" of leaving drones out on active, and guess what happens next?



1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem?

2) I have done, although not on this char obviously, for years and years. According to my KB for those chars my main targets were BCs, apart from that it's full of BSs, the odd HAC and faction fetish stuff. Only a minority were actual mining related ships (hulks, haulers and orcas) simply because they refused to pay ransom. Most of the targets are failfit ofcourse but that's a choice by those carebears. No one denies them access to forums etc to learn how to fit ships.

Not going to state it's amazing high quality PVP (it's fun while it makes nice cash) but the "lol, it's silly pvp" is far from the truth.


Also, drones set to aggressive do NOT attack can flippers just because they nicked some ore. That's just another myth kept alive because of a lack of effort&knowledge. In case of a can flip drones only attack if the miner wanted them to, if a miner tells you otherwise he's just trying to hide the fact that he was dumb. Drones will only attack on aggression but as the can flipper can't shoot the miner before the miner decides to attack him drones are a non-factor.
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#43 - 2012-08-15 10:00:45 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
1) I don't know of ANY ganker worth his name who does not pre-scan the ships and cherry picks those with bad tank (usually the case) / using stupid deadspace small shield booster and so on. So the "which can be avoided" is mooth as it's you who select who to gank not vice versa.

2) You talk like you are attacking 3 years old players who learned better than to jet can. No, those who get flipped are newbs or bads (bads go farm other bads after all, in other MMOs they'd be laughed after and their guild would gain a bad name).

Then there's this often GD written "advice" of leaving drones out on active, and guess what happens next?



1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem?

2) I have done, although not on this char obviously, for years and years. According to my KB for those chars my main targets were BCs, apart from that it's full of BSs, the odd HAC and faction fetish stuff. Only a minority were actual mining related ships (hulks, haulers and orcas) simply because they refused to pay ransom. Most of the targets are failfit ofcourse but that's a choice by those carebears. No one denies them access to forums etc to learn how to fit ships.

Not going to state it's amazing high quality PVP (it's fun while it makes nice cash) but the "lol, it's silly pvp" is far from the truth.


Also, drones set to aggressive do NOT attack can flippers just because they nicked some ore. That's just another myth kept alive because of a lack of effort&knowledge. In case of a can flip drones only attack if the miner wanted them to, if a miner tells you otherwise he's just trying to hide the fact that he was dumb. Drones will only attack on aggression but as the can flipper can't shoot the miner before the miner decides to attack him drones are a non-factor.


FINALLY!! someone that understands, well said mate. Case in point tonight I was in Agel an saw 12 macks in ICE belt, so I scanned each one, an they all had maxed out extenders so I didnt bother cos it just wasnt worth it...

"and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it"
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#44 - 2012-08-15 10:11:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tarassse wrote:
To go further, any good soul passing by should be able to destroy the canflipper's ship. He committed a crime after all, even though it is minor. Don't forget he cannot be podkilled, unless he is <-5.

Being a criminal has consequences. Deal with it.


flipping a can doesn't get you a GCC, so it is not a crime


Thats going to change in Crimewatch 2.0, at least assuming the development hasnt changed since fan fest. But during fan fest according to the speaker, in CrimeWatch 2.0 if you can flip you become a criminal to everyone and can be attacked by anyone. It doesn't get you concorded, but it does open your ass nice and wide.

I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps who might choose to persue criminals. It makes the profession of can flipping a bit more dangerous. Not sure the risk vs. reward is really appropriate since can flipping is a pretty low income profession unless you get stupid lucky.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#45 - 2012-08-15 10:24:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
They don't can flip a guy in a Vagabond


that's probably because vagabonds aren't well-known for being used to mine

i'm glad we have cleared that up


Most of all, they are not known for being a large and defensless target. Which is what "Sunday PvPers" are after.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#46 - 2012-08-15 10:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Radius Prime wrote:
Crime watch devs assured us changes would be well documented before any changes would be implemented. This discussion is irrelevant till they do.


CCP, Eve, well documented, does anyone else see the glaring error here?

I like the fact that there is no manual and that players have to figure stuff out for themselves, zero documentation is a feature, don't change it

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-08-15 10:26:47 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP


ftfy

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2012-08-15 10:31:48 UTC
Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#49 - 2012-08-15 10:34:00 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:


1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem?



It's not a problem for me, it's you who made it look like people go gank others without checking them out first.

Also, what you state is situationally true.

IE yesterday a guy getting out with a 16k EHP Retriever (a quite SP intensive setup) would not have been spared despite the incospiquous ship and big tank (for the ship).
In fact both at Jita / Dodixie and Rens (expecially at the latter), 2 Ice harvesters were about 13M each, 2 T2 ice mining lasers were 10.5M. Add a DC 2, and T2 inv field and you are flying something that WILL get popped by 3 the basic dessies anyway.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#50 - 2012-08-15 10:39:03 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.


You forgot the smilie face to show that you were joking.

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#51 - 2012-08-15 10:48:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:


1) that's my point, by tanking your ship you brush off any suicider who didn't scan (and get to laugh at his fail) and if they DO scan they'll simply move on to another target who was dumb&lazy enough to NOT tank it. So yes, miners have the option to avoid the vast majority of problems simply by adding some tank. So smart&active miners get to live and prosper, clueless clowns die, how is this a problem?



It's not a problem for me, it's you who made it look like people go gank others without checking them out first.


Where did I state that?
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-08-15 10:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Altrue wrote:
I don't see what's the point :
You steal someting in the middle of a public space, it should be normal if others were allowed to try to stop you.

And then, piracy in high sec would make you feel like a true pirate : after commiting your act and being discovered, you have to escape with half of the universe behind you.

That's why piracy almost extinct even IRL and that's why EVE is the only game I know where being a pirate doesn't mean suffering great disadvantages in every possible way ruining everything for you, and nothing else, I'm not even saying about making living out of it or something.

Being carebear I am, I still think that killing unique feature of the game is just plain stupid.

P.S. Mentality these days... You are on your own in EVE, even in highsec. Who the hell ever told you otherwise so insistently that even CCP choose to believe that?

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Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-08-15 11:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Adalynne Rohks
Ned Black wrote:
Actually, nobody is keeping you from doing that can flip... you can go right ahead and do it... but if you do then there will open season on your arse... and personally I find that very fun indeed.

But I guess its a bit like the remove local discussion... removing local from nullsec would introduce real risk, and the people crying the hardest about that are usually the ones calling the people that wants to be rid of local cowards... yet they display in every way that the biggest chickens of the bunch are themselves... same here... the ones crying the hardest here are the ones that suddely have to face actual risk and concequence of their actions.

I welcome crimewatch even if I wont be around to see it in action :p


I don't know about where you're from, but here, there's a huge difference between a misdemeanor and a felony. If a guy attacks somebody on the street, then sure, everybody and there cousin oughta try to stop the guy, at least.

But if a person tries to steal a piece of candy, and shortly thereafter has 25 people trying to beat the crap out of him, there's something a little wrong with that...

I don't think the can flipping itself is the problem. In my short time here, I've already been on both sides of the argument, and I don't think that "fixing" can flipping adds any fun to the game. It's people using it to take advantage of newbs that they seem most concerned about. And I can understand not wanting to grief the people starting out in this game, when they're just trying to figure out how to put ammo in their gun.

edit: And just to be obtuse..... Why would you jettison ore that you're planning to keep or sell...? :-)
Hiro Ceffoe
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-08-15 11:15:04 UTC
Ok so I'm new to this but wouldn't the proposed changes open up pvp for those who have never pvp'ed before?

If I see someone stealing and subsequebtly fighting in a belt im in, at the moment I can't join in but it seems that with these changes I could, ergo I would be pvp'ing where pre-change I would not be. Honestly this is one of the only ways I see myself pvp'ing any time soon in the future.

I also find it amusing that when people in high sec complain about can flippers and things, they are considered crying and told they should adapt or get out, but when the pvp'ers do it its fine? Whats that all about? I swear I've seen people posting in this thread telling people to adapt to changes before, but they cant seem to do it themselves? ironic.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#55 - 2012-08-15 11:21:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Andski wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP


ftfy


I see and attacking a mining barge is full of risk? Its not risk PvP, the thief can fight back and win. Or is it unfair because a can flipper is not ready for PvP? Kind of like the mining barge?

See where im going with that? Its the same shoe just on the other foot.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-08-15 11:26:47 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Andski wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP


ftfy


I see and attacking a mining barge is full of risk? Its not risk PvP, the thief can fight back and win. Or is it unfair because a can flipper is not ready for PvP? Kind of like the mining barge?

See where im going with that? Its the same shoe just on the other foot.


except there's far more "risk" in attacking a mining barge or flipping a can than there ever will be in shooting can flippers with 10 neutral logi alts tailing you

if you think the solution to "low-risk PvP" is to introduce risk-free PvP to counter it, well, i don't know what to tell you

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Cara Rahl
Ore Reallocation Services
#57 - 2012-08-15 11:28:37 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
No longer can people steal your can


If something is jettisoned you throw it away, abandon and discard it as something unwanted. You lose your ownership of what you threw away. The very term "jettison" should already tell you that what you are doing can cause interaction with other people. To complain about this is pretty hilarious actually.

Imo it's been a mistake and ridiculously dumb thing to begin with that CCP added ownership to jettisoned containers (and wrecks while we're at it, which also should never have happened and not have hindered salvaging to become a proper profession and not this bastard thing it is today) and should never have been done. But I won't complain, cause it let's me shoot at people which is more fun anyway.

And the "risk" is what you make of it. On both sides. No one forces you to shoot and no one hinders you to bring RR. Not to mention that not everyone is a serious threat.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#58 - 2012-08-15 11:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Andski wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Andski wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
I think this is a good mechanic for "do gooder" corps looking for risk-free PvP


ftfy


I see and attacking a mining barge is full of risk? Its not risk PvP, the thief can fight back and win. Or is it unfair because a can flipper is not ready for PvP? Kind of like the mining barge?

See where im going with that? Its the same shoe just on the other foot.


except there's far more "risk" in attacking a mining barge or flipping a can than there ever will be in shooting can flippers with 10 neutral logi alts tailing you

if you think the solution to "low-risk PvP" is to introduce risk-free PvP to counter it, well, i don't know what to tell you


Thats a silly notion. I have been playing this game for 6 years I have never seen or heard of a can flipper with 10 neutral logi alts chasing somebody. Creating some out of the blue unlikely scenario that rarely if ever happens is hardly a case for anything.

Its a simple fair mechanic in which the most prepared wins. The miner can have some friends standing by, thief dies The theif can bring more friends, miner and friends die. Other people can jump in to try to gank the thieves and their friends with even more friends...

You get the idea. Who ever shows up with the best plan and is most prepared wins. There is ample mechanics in place to allow for all manner of scenarios, plans, strategies and results.

How is this not in the spirit of Eve?

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Milla Lekarariba
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#59 - 2012-08-15 13:15:16 UTC
well one quote I can think of for all this.....


If you can't do the time, don't do the crime

Personally although currently a carebear, to me it makes Piracy MORE attractive and more realistic..

but remember although perhaps the whole system could attack, I doubt EVERYONE will
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
#60 - 2012-08-15 13:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Minmatar Citizen160812
Tippia wrote:
Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy.



Yep, who cares what a random know-nothing thinks will happen. What I want to know is, will sentries and the navy attack when suspect flagged? If I read and listened to what I think was said about it you'll just be flagged attackable to all players. I would kinda be against that but if the bears are happy with it so am I.

I think all the people who want to shoot ninja salvagers just got their wish.



Quote:

Ok so I'm new to this but wouldn't the proposed changes open up pvp for those who have never pvp'ed before?

If I see someone stealing and subsequebtly fighting in a belt im in, at the moment I can't join in but it seems that with these changes I could, ergo I would be pvp'ing where pre-change I would not be. Honestly this is one of the only ways I see myself pvp'ing any time soon in the future.

I also find it amusing that when people in high sec complain about can flippers and things, they are considered crying and told they should adapt or get out, but when the pvp'ers do it its fine? Whats that all about? I swear I've seen people posting in this thread telling people to adapt to changes before, but they cant seem to do it themselves? ironic.


This is the reason I would kinda be against it. This poor guy would think he was looking at a fight happening in a belt he can join in on. The day after he would be here posting why the mechanic is broken while both of those guys were on comms laughing at him.

The last thing you want is the adaptable players getting their hands on you.