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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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Author
Cade Windstalker
#561 - 2017-03-01 04:31:02 UTC
JonasML wrote:
Clearly you know nothing about mining, particularly nullsec mining. When Fozzie fucks with lowsec PVP, I'll be happy to hear from you, until then get a clue. The mineral market has undergone steady inflation over the last 5+ years. There was a drop in prices when the drone regions were released about 8 years ago, which was quickly soaked up by an increase in capitals and supers and has been on the rise ever since - WELL PAST THE ORIGINAL PRICES. CCP didn't go making huge nerfs then though, they only nerfed 1 alloy drop, very slightly, to fix the huge drop in zydrine value. Has anything dropped to less than 50% it's pre-excavator value? No? No problem then. In fact, some minerals like mexallon are going up. Show of hands who remembers a 100m Megathrawn or Raven?

In nullsec, Rorquals are the only thing to mine in, until Fozzie gets his head out of his ass and finally builds a reasonable damn interceptor that isn't impossible to kill or catch (apologies Fozzie if you really are just the poor bastard who has to announce everything and get screamed at). Hulks or barges are used to clear the mercoxit and maybe ochre, why else would you put them out when a 'ceptor will rip the tin can apart and get away with it?

FYI, carriers are the new cruisers, EVERYONE in 0.0 rats in them, North, South, drone regions, only place you might not see it being common is npc nullsec and even then it happens. In pvp FAX are the new make or break fleet fight ships. Whoever has the most wins. Either way, subcaps are becoming obsolete, only highly specialized T2/T3 ships have value for anything other than "swarm" fleets - ever see the 100+ man tier 3 bc fleets fielded by NC. and others?. Bring your subcap fleet into someone's sov and see what happens.


Clearly you know nothing about economics.

The cost of minerals has gone up over the last four years largely because the ISK supply has gone up, which has increased what people are willing to pay for minerals, which has driven prices up.

Also, if you'd checked Mexallon in the last month, you'd know that it plateaued and is dropping in value along with the other bottleneck minerals. The reason for this is also clearly visible in the form of an increase in supply of Mexallon, along with other minerals, over the last few months. There has been a small uptick in Mex prices in the last few days but that could easily be due to people selling the Rorquals and the market trying to use the current glut of minerals thus forcing bottlenecks higher again, only time will tell which it is.

Also comparing current events to Eve circa 2007 is a bit laughable. First off, CCP back then operated a *lot* differently from CCP now. On top of that the drone minerals that you're touting have since been largely removed from the game for being not healthy for mining.

Magic solution to Inties killing your Exhumers:


  1. Tank mining ships
  2. Use Rorqual as support ship (Excavators optional)
  3. Put repper(s) on aggressed Exhumer
  4. laugh


Caps being important is not the same thing as Caps being the only thing anyone uses. The Rorqual is going to be important to any mining fleet because it provides the best boosts available and solid support for the fleet. That doesn't mean it's making those smaller ships obsolete though.

Caps need sub-caps or they get picked apart, just because not everything is getting used in a Null fight or you can't just bring a kitchen sink to a fight and win doesn't mean Capitals are pushing out Sub Caps.

JonasML wrote:
And seriously, ******* Jaspet? WTF? Who mines Jaspet in nullsec? Jaspet has absolutely nothing to do with Rorqual mining...


I called out Jaspet because it's a commonly available Mexallon rich High Sec ore. I apologize if this wasn't clear from context. The reason I used it as an example was because it's the High Sec ore that's undergone the lowest price drop in the last three months and if Rorquals weren't dropping the price of ore in High Sec and the Mex-bottleneck theory was accurate we would expect it to have gone up in price, not dropped along with everything else.
Cade Windstalker
#562 - 2017-03-01 04:32:01 UTC
jizzah wrote:
I believe the orca mines 1.5 times a fully maxed exhumer. That's almost comparable boosts, a pretty decent amount of yield and all in the relative safety of highsec.


You have been misinformed. An Orca mines less than half what a Hulk does fully boosted, and barely beats out an un-boosted no-implant Skiff before drone travel is taken into account (and before the T2 mining drone changes coming up).

jizzah wrote:
This is where you really lose me. The vast majority of ore mined in null comes from sites. In order to get a new site to spawn, the old site needs to be cleared-ergo, the mercoxit has to be mined too. Therefore 'rorquals only' is a bit of a blinkered statement.


You only need to fully mine an Anomaly if you run out of other stuff to mine before it naturally despawns and respawns after a few days. Since an anomaly has enough ore in it to feed several Rorquals for a couple of days and there are multiple Ore Anoms per fully upgraded system you only need to fully mine one out if you have enough Rorquals mining a single system that you literally run out of other stuff to mine before one despawns.

Since the majority of players aren't massive multiboxers and don't play 23/7 this is going to be fairly common. Certainly common enough that the distribution of ore flooding onto the market isn't going to exactly match the composition of Null Sec Ore Anoms.

jizzah wrote:
I can think of 2 different means of dealing with a bloom in an item. The first way is by creating a sink of sorts. I believe someone mentioned and was (pretty unfairly) shot down ammo drops from npc's. Release some faction ammo BPCs that drop from spawns, make the mineral cost of producing said ammo the means of equalising the market surplus.

A much better way of 'balancing' an irregularity in supply would be to tweak the spawn rates of the asteroids. Look at market, see there's too much of one mineral and not enough of another, adjust the anom spawn, see how the market adjusts. Then tweak again accordingly. As I said before the anom needs to be fully mined before another will spawn, so cherry-picking the best roids, then leaving it isn't an option. Baby steps.

With either example, miners are happy as they're still seeing a decent return for their investment, industry is happy as the minerals are available without a surplus of one and not enough of another, so production of ships continues unabashed and I'm happy due to the increase of capsuleers in game, waiting to die. The only thing I can say with any real certainty is if the mining nerf goes ahead, more than a few accounts will go back into hibernation until such a time as the wheel turns full circle and miners get noticed again.

In any case, it will be a real shame to see this revitalised eve return to pre-ascension numbers.


Your first solution here is basically power-creep. It also relies largely on whatever CCP introduce adding enough of a *new* mineral sink (as in, not one that just replaces an already existing one) to absorb all of the minerals coming into the game. This is if not outright impractical then economically difficult, because players need to be able to afford to buy the new thing and everyone only has so much disposable income, which is generally rationed between available options. So if you introduce some new hot item consumption of other goods is likely to drop at least slightly in response to the shift in consumption.

Not impossible by any means, but certainly somewhat impractical, especially since whatever CCP might introduce would A. take time to design and balance, and B. need to be attractive enough that everyone goes out and builds/buys it in large enough sustained quantities to make up for the increased mineral production.

As for spawn rates, this assumes that anoms actually need to be fully mined to respawn (they don't) and that the problem here is bottleneck minerals and not an overall glut of ore, which is pretty demonstrably not the case or Mex would be going through the roof instead of leveling off and apparently dropping in the last month.

Also, this is just my personal bet here, but I think CCP will take a few hundred Rorqual pilots who weren't particularly loyal subscribers over the number of High Sec mining and industry accounts they'd lose if the price of minerals drops enough that people without Rorquals can't really afford PLEX...
Denngarr B'tarn
Derp Company
Get Off My Lawn
#563 - 2017-03-01 04:52:53 UTC
Quote:
Excavator Drones:
We're planning another reduction in Excavator drone yield to help keep the mineral economy healthy. I know it never feels good when things get nerfed but we're very confident that the Rorqual will continue to be an extremely powerful mining ship after these changes (not to mention the value provided by its other functions such as foreman links and defenses). We plan on continuing to make changes in this area as necessary over the coming months with the goal of keeping the mineral market healthy and ensuring that a wide variety of mining ships are viable.

  • Speed up the cycle time of 'Excavator' ore mining drones to 60 seconds, and reduce the yield per cycle to 110 m3 base. This will reduce the idealized yield per minute, increase the number of trips required to and from the asteroid, but also reduce the amount of wasted cycle at the end of an asteroid's life.
  • Add killmails on the destruction of all 'Excavator' drones.
  • In March we are also planning on some UI/UX improvements for drones as a whole and mining drones in particular. These include a new keyboard shortcut for launching drones and enabling the "engage target" keyboard shortcut to work with mining drones. Discussion of these UI changes is best directed to this thread.



Ok, just heard about this tonight. Not even remotely the right method!
Currently, and in the foreseeable future, Excavator drones are costing in at 1.6-1.9 bill per. That's making the Rorqual an 11-14 billion ISK asset to drop in field. WHY would I put this out in the field if I'm looking at dropping to 100mil per hour? Seriously? It's already a little difficult to do it at 200 million. I'd rather drop 3 hulks with a porpoise and pull the same amount. At that point, I'm only risking 1 billion in assets. Even with PLEX, I'm 3 billion over that. 4 vs 11.

This is NOT alternative math.


Quote:
PANIC Module:
We have been keeping a close eye on potential issues related to the PANIC module for a while, and although we are overall quite happy with the module we are interested in reducing the power of a few uses, primarily use for fleet tackle and cyno lighting, as well as an escape method for entosis operations.
  • To reduce the power of the PANIC module in these situations while also preserving all of its power for defending mining Rorquals and their fleets we are currently planning the following change:
  • Initial activation of the PANIC module would require the Rorqual to have an active target lock on an asteroid (including ice).

  • I've posted a bit more explanation of why we're leaning towards this solution in a reply here. We're definitely interested in hearing what other options you folks can think of to reach the same goals, but please read that post first for background.



    Leave the panic module alone. It did nothing to you. Besides, a Griffin could negate it, so you'd have to seriously add bonuses to sensor strength to offset.


    Quote:
    Other misc mining changes:
  • Buffing the Mining Laser Field Enhancement foreman link from 30% to 40% base bonus.
  • Increasing the optimal range of the ORE strip miners (to 18.75km) and ORE ice harvesters (to 12.5km).
  • Spreading out the asteroids in the Asteroid Cluster ore anoms a bit to help the balance between shorter range drone mining and longer range exhumer mining.
  • We are investigating the option of increasing the visual size of nullsec ore asteroids to help improve the feel of the ore anom environments (they've been a bit sad looking since the veld got removed) but we are not sure about some technical details of that potential change atm so no promises.


  • Distance is nice, but no where even close to the changes you're suggesting. Speed = ISK/hr. That's the buff for a mining unit, not distance.

    Size increase would be nice. I'm down with that.
    jizzah
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #564 - 2017-03-01 06:50:23 UTC
    Thanks for clearing up the orca point-seems I was misinformed if that's the case.

    Cade Windstalker wrote:


    As for spawn rates, this assumes that anoms actually need to be fully mined to respawn (they don't) and that the problem here is bottleneck minerals and not an overall glut of ore, which is pretty demonstrably not the case or Mex would be going through the roof instead of leveling off and apparently dropping in the last month.


    Going to end my involvement at this point as you seem to have absolutely no idea on nullsec mining and what exactly is happening out here. Good luck with the remainder of your arguments which are well put but inaccutate at best, delusional at worst.
    Raven Ship
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #565 - 2017-03-01 07:36:56 UTC
    There are few facts, I notice are missing.

    Ore price do no matter itself, and if any Ore should be looked at, it is Spodumain and Crockite that are overmined in nullsec by rorqual's.
    So mineral price should be what we speak about, tritanium and pyerite mainly.

    For tritanium and pyerite, price have foll down by 1/3 from last summer, that is around 33%.
    If this tendency keep up, by time next summer we will have mineral's price at half to what it should be in balanced economy.

    New players, very often get there first steps ingame as miners, and they mine those Ore, which price is tied to those base minerals.
    That so this rorqual change, is against new players, and is unhealthy for playerbase.

    Price of new mining drones, is factor of two things, how much those who find blueprints charge for them,
    and how hard it is to gather material, on example of 1 excavator:
    - 50x Elite drone AI
    You need to run 50 times anomaly Drone Patrol, which in difference to Havens in any other space, is really hard, and pays very bad.
    - 75x Drone Cordinatory Unit
    Thing drop from Commander spown's, you need 7-8 lucky Faction spowns to get that much, lucky as it will not always drop, and those faction spowns do not give anything good besides those drone materials.
    Keep in mind, every rorqual pilot want to have 5 of them.

    So to all wishing for price drop of excavator drone's, and other related to them, it will not happen, it will rather go up as stockpiles made by years will burn out

    Price of rorqual itself, this investment refer to, did those players ever read agreement they accepted to play this game? "Game experience may change", so they gamble by putting so big isk in clearly over-performing ship, and now they require empathy, hell no, noone of them shared there income with community and especially new players, and there investment made up for them few times atleast!

    Also those who benefit most of rorqual's are two maybe three super capital block's, and those even as benefit most, for fact of there nullsec standby fleets, are fraction of players affected by changes, from my old figures on numbers, like 2-3%, and those few gain such advantage over everyone else. This is sick.



    That were about facts, now for my view on solution.

    As advance from exhumels is required, it is too big step forward, deployed rorqual should have effective yield of about 150% what hulk have.

    No other command ship is stuck at grid while boosting, then why on earth rorqual should be? Industry core should have 5 second cycle, or do not immobilize rorqual at all.

    Excavator drones, should require much less material to build them, 1/10 of what it is now.

    Panic module should stay same as it is, but to use it, rorqual could not have aggression timer on.
    Witchy Bife
    Sternen Krieger
    Pandemic Horde
    #566 - 2017-03-01 10:31:26 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:


    Other misc mining changes:
    • Buffing the Mining Laser Field Enhancement foreman link from 30% to 40% base bonus.
    • Increasing the optimal range of the ORE strip miners (to 18.75km) and ORE ice harvesters (to 12.5km).
    • Spreading out the asteroids in the Asteroid Cluster ore anoms a bit to help the balance between shorter range drone mining and longer range exhumer mining.
    • We are investigating the option of increasing the visual size of nullsec ore asteroids to help improve the feel of the ore anom environments (they've been a bit sad looking since the veld got removed) but we are not sure about some technical details of that potential change atm so no promises.

    These changes will be appearing on SISI for public testing over the next few days and we're very interested in hearing your feedback. Thanks!



    i checked SISI today , yeah you increased the Mining Range from Hulks now , but the Maximum Target Range is Still at 35KM .

    even with Max skills you cant reach the Full Mining Range , since the Maximum Target range from the ship is limited.

    so CCP please Adjust the Range from the Ships too
    Leila Pegasus
    M.A.D
    Just A Game.
    #567 - 2017-03-01 11:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Leila Pegasus
    edit: nevermind mixed 15 with 30 gilas up just ignor
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #568 - 2017-03-01 12:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
    Querns wrote:
    It'd be interesting to see the actual data used to determine the health of the "mineral economy."

    We already know that CCP has no metrics for drone mining. If they did, it'd show up in the Monthly Economic Reports. Speaking as someone with intimate knowledge of the mining output of my alliance's region, I can guarantee you that it is still broken. CCP Quant has said as much in months past.

    So what is left to measure? It could be any number of potential things, but what I suspect it is (and please, prove me wrong here,) is that the Jita price of minerals (and potentially other major market hubs) was the deciding factor.

    To be brief, looking at Jita is not particularly representative of the state of mining as a whole. I can certainly go into more detail, but it'd be pointless to do so without confirmation that my hypothesis is true.

    For what it's worth, I had been expecting another rorqual nerf, and am expecting more to come. However, the nerfs should be for the right reasons, and not spurious ones.
    One of the wonders of working on a 14 year old game is that many bits of functionality are actually implemented multiple times in separate ways. The EVE server actually records mining events in three ways that I have found so far (there very well may be more) and although one of them doesn't record drone mining, the other two do. For instance, this is why sov industry indexes are getting the data from drone mining. This did indeed cause some confusion immediately after release.
    We plan to get around to fixing the "info events" mining records that the monthly public report uses and honestly hoped that we would have found time to fix it earlier but other tasks have managed to take priority from it so far. Since CCP Quant's time is so valuable and the fix to the info events logs has been perpetually "around the corner" we haven't rewritten the newsletter counter to use one of the other log sources.
    TL:DR is that we do indeed have data for drone mining, as well as data for ore/mineral stockpiles and industry jobs.


    Aleverette wrote:
    Now I have a question after all these buff/nerf charades EVE have been through.
    What was the purpose of you buffing Rorqual? Were you trying to make it a powerful solo mining ship so players with only one or two accounts could be involved in industrial activities? Or just simply wanted to give current Rorqual pilots a new toy to play with?

    If the answer is the second one, go ahead and change the number whatever you like.

    But if the answer is the first one, then I sincerely suggest you should reconsider how to fit Rorqual into the universe instead of giving it a big ass invincibility and a set of gamebreaking drones. EVE is a complicated system (at least more complicated than most of other MMO) , thus, providing a new set of game mechanics in depth is necessary in order to increase gameplay variety. You rush too much.
    So I’ll start with the disclaimer that EVE we don’t try and define every use that players will have for a tool we give them. We tend to build tools with at least one or two core uses and expect players to find more.
    The core role we designed the new Rorqual for was quite clearly stated in the dev blog announcing it. It was built to be a mining foreman ship, providing a number of valuable benefits to a group of mining ships. Each of these benefits may or may not be considered "enough" to justify the ship by themselves but the goal is that together they represent more than the sum of their parts. Direct mining ability is one of these features but so is support for other miners and defense for the fleet.
    So the shorter version of the answer is that although we have no problem with people solo mining in Rorquals (as long as their yields aren't harming the overall economy), the core "victory condition" for the mining foreman ship designs would be for mining fleets to want at least one mining foreman ship as part of the mix and for the Rorqual to be an interesting and viable option for that boosting/defending/mining combined role.


    Cade Windstalker wrote:
    Seriously, if CCP could see this massive shift coming do you really think their magical foresight would somehow stop short of seeing the rage in this thread? Lol
    This is less rage than I expected tbh.

    I don’t know exactly how much it’ll help to say this, but let me state the following as directly as I can:
    We don’t make balance choices in an attempt to “bait and switch” people with injectors. We here at CCP are not evil geniuses playing 12 dimensional chess. We’re approaching ship design and balancing in exactly the same way that we did before the introduction of skill injectors, with the goal of creating a fun set of tools and choices for players to interact with.

    When we developed the original design for the Ascension Rorqual changes we stated our goals honestly in the dev blog. We wanted to create a distinct “mining foreman” role that players would enjoy playing and that would have a clear progression with three ships that are all viable in different situations and at different price points.
    One of the big areas of uncertainty when making a design like that one is the question of how strong you need to make aspects of a ship in order for players to consider it worth the risk. We had an extra wrinkle with the Rorqual since it was a pre-existing ship that had developed a stigma around it. We knew there would be inertia involved in player behavior that might cause the ship to remain underused if it ended up “just barely good enough”. We also knew that we didn’t have complete information about what that “just barely good enough” level was going to be, since we can only estimate the player behavior around changes like this.
    We knew ahead of time that we’d very...

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

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    Aleverette
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #569 - 2017-03-01 13:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aleverette
    I am still extremely looking forward to a "mining supercarrier" as you brought to us a similar idea about one year ago back in EVE Down Under 2016. Roll

    Hopefully you can give us that dream.
    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    Just let it happen
    #570 - 2017-03-01 14:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Henry Plantgenet wrote:
    CCP can you make mining drones more intelligent and have them stop when the asteroid is empty?
    Like when they're actually empty and not just when the cycle is ended and a lot of overkill has happened?
    The inventory operation actually doesn’t happen until the drones get all the way back to your ship so they don’t know until that point that the asteroid is going to be empty. The good news is that the faster excavator cycle times will significantly reduce that waste.


    CCP Fozzie, there is a way around this. It would work for both mining drones and lasers.
    When a cycle ends, the amount of ore in the asteroid is checked. The length of the next cycle is then adjusted so that the asteroid is exactly mined out on that next cycle. One issue: The code that adjusts the last cycle length must make an assumption on how fast the asteroid is being mined. The easiest thing to do is assume that just your ship is mining the asteroid. Example: if my drones are doing 1000 cu m/minute, and the roid has 600 cu m left, the last cycle is set to 36 seconds (irrelevant of who else is mining the same roid.)

    Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

    Frozen fanfiction

    Momiji Sakora
    Omni Galactic
    Central Omni Galactic Group
    #571 - 2017-03-01 14:11:23 UTC
    Any chance we could just go ahead and remove the limit of the Rorq being stuck on grid for 5 minutes as the 30 interceptors are closing in - immune to our defensive bubbles, and to our own defense fleet - landing on grid and being able to warp off with impunity as our own ships try to catch and kill the ceptor pilots - the rorqual still 2 minutes away from being able to warp - with 25 points of disruption locking it down.

    Will you be addressing the interceptor menace in a later patch? If so - I'll dock the rorqual up and leave it til then.
    Ncc 1709
    Fusion Enterprises Ltd
    Reckless Contingency.
    #572 - 2017-03-01 14:23:35 UTC
    @ccp fozzie
    please just change the industrial core and panic moduals to have the same EW capacitor usage as Network sensor array and Triage modual, since the industrial core has the same effect as a triage modual, it should have the same penalty to e-war.

    this alone should resolve the issue with jump hic's without crippling the rorquals other options.
    Cade Windstalker
    #573 - 2017-03-01 14:57:31 UTC
    jizzah wrote:
    Going to end my involvement at this point as you seem to have absolutely no idea on nullsec mining and what exactly is happening out here. Good luck with the remainder of your arguments which are well put but inaccutate at best, delusional at worst.


    I won't claim to have universal knowledge of everything that goes on in Null, but I'd like to think that through the people I know I have a broader view than most, and I can assure you that no where near everyone is simply mining out entire ore anoms before moving on.

    Certainly plenty of people are, but plenty of others aren't mining for long enough for this to happen, which means they're cherry picking minerals that are worth more. To quote one of my acquaintances on coms a few weeks ago: "I can't believe I'm actually mining Spud" because he needed Mex, couldn't buy any on his local market, and was producing something that needed more than he had on hand. This is someone with 2 or 3 Rorquals, but he doesn't run them close to all day because he has a job. Normally he'd be Carrier ratting but Rorq mining was a better deal for him after Ascension, and he's not the only person I know in that kind of situation.

    If you have any specific corrections you'd like to make to my assertions here feel free, always happy to learn more and get more perspectives into the mix Big smile

    Denngarr B'tarn wrote:
    Ok, just heard about this tonight. Not even remotely the right method!
    Currently, and in the foreseeable future, Excavator drones are costing in at 1.6-1.9 bill per. That's making the Rorqual an 11-14 billion ISK asset to drop in field. WHY would I put this out in the field if I'm looking at dropping to 100mil per hour? Seriously? It's already a little difficult to do it at 200 million. I'd rather drop 3 hulks with a porpoise and pull the same amount. At that point, I'm only risking 1 billion in assets. Even with PLEX, I'm 3 billion over that. 4 vs 11.

    This is NOT alternative math.


    Excavator drones are already down to 1.2b Sell in Jita as we speak, and the supply of the drones is showing signs of outpacing demand. With the drop in demand these changes create we're likely to see a further reduction in prices.

    Denngarr B'tarn wrote:
    Leave the panic module alone. It did nothing to you. Besides, a Griffin could negate it, so you'd have to seriously add bonuses to sensor strength to offset.


    The siege module makes you immune to ECM...

    Denngarr B'tarn wrote:
    Distance is nice, but no where even close to the changes you're suggesting. Speed = ISK/hr. That's the buff for a mining unit, not distance.

    Size increase would be nice. I'm down with that.


    The distance increase is to make it easier to boost a group of Exhumers in a large belt and to help offset the wider spacing on asteroids.

    Also you do realize 'size' means physical model size, not the amount of ore in them, right?

    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    This is less rage than I expected tbh.


    Appreciate the candor and the info-rich post.

    Out of curiosity is CCP going to take a look at Ore Anom spawns in Null? I think one good point that has come out of all this is that instantly respawning ore and combat anoms are a little ridiculous and make it very very easy to pack a lot of people into a small area. I know you've already said you're considering another pass on ore and mineral compositions in these anoms, any chance this spawning behavior could be adjusted as well?

    Doesn't have to be at the same time as combat anoms, since any tweaks to those should probably accompany larger changes to null PvE, like whatever group content you hinted at on the o7 show.
    Soldarius
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #574 - 2017-03-01 15:19:32 UTC
    Querns wrote:
    Whole lotta folks not twigging to the fact that sieging the rorqual gives you ECM immunity ITT.

    I won't comment directly on the nerf, but I do offer this: If the goal here is to help buttress mineral prices, consider taking a look at the mineral basket. (Ask Aryth if you don't understand what this means. Few do.) Decreasing the amount of pyerite and isogen in nullsec anomalies, while increasing mexallon (and to a lesser degree, nocx and mega) will do a lot to help correct the downward trend in minerals.

    If you'd like an idea on how mineral prices react in a high-usage market, check the keepstar in 1DQ1-A.


    Pretty much this.

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

    Shee Mail
    Roids are Us
    #575 - 2017-03-01 15:44:44 UTC
    Fozzie, do you really think rorq mining will be balanced when the yield in ISK/hr is approximately 150mil/hr in average considering that Carrier worth 3 bil can make more than that and is not tied to a grid for 5 minutes at a time? Hell i can rat that money in my Vindicator, a 1.5bil ship.

    As others said, this game is about risk vs reward.
    Do you risk extraordinary expensive ships? Well the reward should be high.
    Now that you are taking the reward from us, you should also lower the risk. And cutting excavators in price by 80% is NOT the way to go for several reasons. If you are not psychically challenged person you should never lose you excavators, because you will safely deposit them into the depot when neuts jump in the system. So excavators should not be considered as part of the risk, because you should never lose them. So that makes properly fit rorqual a what, 5-7bil ship? Now if we consider that 3bil ratting carrier can make 200-250 mil/hr, then logically our 5-7bil rorq should make at least a little bit more than that. And here comes the twist - the risk is actually MUCH higher, because not only you are risking 5-7bil ship, but you can't also move that ship for 5 minutes at a time. But yet you propose to have rather low reward and keep the risk very hight.

    Yes of course, here comes yours argument that carriers can't be multiboxed easily but rorqs can so you can't compare them etc. etc... Well if thats a problem, fix it, dont just nerf the ship to the ground. Make excavators like fighters, make them require attention!

    As you said yourself Fozzie, at the beginning you had to find out what's "just barely enough" and then do a little bit more to get things moving, to make us change our minds. Well now you got exact opposite. Hundreds of people invested thousands of billions into rorquals and they WILL keep using it even when it's just barely suboptimal, simply because they already invested so much money in it. So now you have to nerf it more than "barely suboptimal" to "recover market" and stuff. And at that point rorqual will be again very underwhelming ship as it was before the buff.

    And you should ask yourself, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO FIX and IS NERFING YIELD THE BEST WAY TO FIX IT?

    Because if delve is mining 23/7 and getting absurd amount of ore, where is the problem? Is yield a problem and lowering yield is the perfect solution what will harm nothing but this problematic behavior?

    If there are people multiboxing 10 rorqs and can clear a site in a matter of few cycles, where is the problem? Is yield a problem and lowering yield is the perfect solution what will harm nothing but this problematic behavior?

    So tell me Fozzie, what is the problem exactly? What are you trying to fix? You want our feedback yet you don't tell us why the change is needed. You only give us your fuzzy talk about "healthy marketz and stuffz". Stop being fuzzy Fozzie.
    Julie Hawke
    30plus
    Goonswarm Federation
    #576 - 2017-03-01 16:36:16 UTC
    I rarely post in forums....its usually not worth the effort

    However

    I have been a Rorqual pilot for over 5 years and like many others I waited patiently for CCP to fix it so that it did not have to sit in a POS and do nothing but boost

    Fozzie and many others went on record saying we know the Rorqual is broken its gonna be great some day .....fast forward to 2016.

    You gave us a fantastically expensive loot pinata to siege rocks with....fine

    Then Fozzie said wait...this is far too good.. so he took some back....hence the first change.

    Now Fozzie says....we dont want you flying fleets of Rorquals so we are going to hammer it again.

    Now its a Capital Boosting ship again....on grid with siege ....only 1 will be needed for that so 100's of rorqual pilots might as well look for other jobs. Corps will only need 1 or 2 and now they can be corp assets. (Excavators are not even worth commenting on)

    I am not angry or raging....i got past that when i realized that its my own fault for actually believing....I drank the Cool aid and it has surely killed me....

    So Fozzie i want to thank you for fixing my Rorqual....i just hope the next owner enjoys it.



    FearlessLittleToaster
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #577 - 2017-03-01 17:00:07 UTC
    Julie Hawke wrote:
    I rarely post in forums....its usually not worth the effort

    However

    I have been a Rorqual pilot for over 5 years and like many others I waited patiently for CCP to fix it so that it did not have to sit in a POS and do nothing but boost

    Fozzie and many others went on record saying we know the Rorqual is broken its gonna be great some day .....fast forward to 2016.

    You gave us a fantastically expensive loot pinata to siege rocks with....fine

    Then Fozzie said wait...this is far too good.. so he took some back....hence the first change.

    Now Fozzie says....we dont want you flying fleets of Rorquals so we are going to hammer it again.

    Now its a Capital Boosting ship again....on grid with siege ....only 1 will be needed for that so 100's of rorqual pilots might as well look for other jobs. Corps will only need 1 or 2 and now they can be corp assets. (Excavators are not even worth commenting on)

    I am not angry or raging....i got past that when i realized that its my own fault for actually believing....I drank the Cool aid and it has surely killed me....

    So Fozzie i want to thank you for fixing my Rorqual....i just hope the next owner enjoys it.





    I bought excavators, and now I'm rolling in filthy mountains of Isk. I regret nothing. The coming nerf will hurt my isk/hour sure, but when I do the isk/hour/effort it's not even that significant. Nowhere else can I pull in 100m an hour, touching the keyboard every ten minutes, while I fold my laundry.
    Julie Hawke
    30plus
    Goonswarm Federation
    #578 - 2017-03-01 17:28:20 UTC
    FearlessLittleToaster[/quote wrote:


    I bought excavators, and now I'm rolling in filthy mountains of Isk. I regret nothing. The coming nerf will hurt my isk/hour sure, but when I do the isk/hour/effort it's not even that significant. Nowhere else can I pull in 100m an hour, touching the keyboard every ten minutes, while I fold my laundry.



    Good for you ....luv to see goons getting ahead in EVE

    Of course you realize this wont be the last Rorqual nerf....or did you drink the cool aid too?
    FearlessLittleToaster
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #579 - 2017-03-01 18:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: FearlessLittleToaster
    Julie Hawke wrote:
    or did you drink the cool aid too?


    Of course it won't be the last nerf. I think the final numbers will settle somewhere right around two barges in output, and even after this nerf it's going to be sitting at three and a bit. But hey, new players in Ventures really do need to be able to mine too, and I'm OK with my wonder-money bus taking some hits to keep them in the game. I don't support broken mechanics even when they directly benefit me; things that make Eve worse out weight my individual interest.

    As for goons getting ahead, well, we do have the most heavily populated and aggressively defended space in the game. I wouldn't be using Rorqs to mine if I lived surrounded by reds, but the sheer amount of effort that goes into keeping our space safe-ish argues against this mechanic being broken.
    Ted McManfist
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #580 - 2017-03-01 18:22:36 UTC
    I still want an ORE titan. Not joking.