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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

First post First post First post
Author
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#601 - 2017-03-01 23:09:45 UTC
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the cost of a fit rorqual and mining drones justifies having it over a couple of barges after this nerf.

If CCP reduced the cost of the setup, then, yeah, sure. But until we have a non-faction option for capital mining drones (T1 and T2), I don't see how it's really going to make ISK-sense post-patch to have more than one in a belt.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#602 - 2017-03-01 23:22:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Laendra wrote:
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the cost of a fit rorqual and mining drones justifies having it over a couple of barges after this nerf.

If CCP reduced the cost of the setup, then, yeah, sure. But until we have a non-faction option for capital mining drones (T1 and T2), I don't see how it's really going to make ISK-sense post-patch to have more than one in a belt.

You are not wrong.

There is no point to the Rorqual ... well, to quote CCP Fozzie:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
So the goal here will be to make a ship that is the kind of thing you want to put into a belt, with extremely strong defensive bonuses, and the ability to not only protect itself but its friends, and the ability to provide also a strong benefit to your mining fleet. Get these things out where they're in a bit of some danger, but also where that danger is manageable, where it is actually sane to put them into that danger.

Then he buffed and nerfed twice.
FearlessLittleToaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#603 - 2017-03-02 00:01:22 UTC
Laendra wrote:
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the cost of a fit rorqual and mining drones justifies having it over a couple of barges after this nerf.

If CCP reduced the cost of the setup, then, yeah, sure. But until we have a non-faction option for capital mining drones (T1 and T2), I don't see how it's really going to make ISK-sense post-patch to have more than one in a belt.


I think it has to do with overall wealth level. I'm freakin space rich (Not Aryth rich, but I can make Isk easily enough) and for me the Rorq represents the best balance of effort/time/investment currently available due to the minimal attention it requires.

On the other hand if it represented the majority of my assets and the only way I could make enough Isk to buy a replacement... then yeah a couple barges would be a smarter option. A lot smarter.
Cade Windstalker
#604 - 2017-03-02 00:25:20 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
Laendra wrote:
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the cost of a fit rorqual and mining drones justifies having it over a couple of barges after this nerf.

If CCP reduced the cost of the setup, then, yeah, sure. But until we have a non-faction option for capital mining drones (T1 and T2), I don't see how it's really going to make ISK-sense post-patch to have more than one in a belt.


I think it has to do with overall wealth level. I'm freakin space rich (Not Aryth rich, but I can make Isk easily enough) and for me the Rorq represents the best balance of effort/time/investment currently available due to the minimal attention it requires.

On the other hand if it represented the majority of my assets and the only way I could make enough Isk to buy a replacement... then yeah a couple barges would be a smarter option. A lot smarter.


At the risk of agreeing with a Goon, this guy pretty much gets it.

To add on a little. If you're building your Rorquals the cost of minerals is right around the payout of Platinum insurance, so if you lose one the only actual cost is the modules and the cost of insurance. The drones are what's really expensive, and those are coming down in price.

So while a smaller group or less affluent player might only find it worthwhile to put a Rorqual in the belt for boosting it's absolutely worthwhile to do so for most players who can afford a Rorqual in the first place, especially if having it there makes it possible to get the sub-caps out with minimal losses.
Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
#605 - 2017-03-02 01:40:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Increasing the optimal range of the ORE strip miners (to 18.75km) and ORE ice harvesters (to 12.5km).



Are these strips types that popular?

Currently in Jita the price tag for a ORE strip miners is around 206 mil isk. (pretty much the cost of an exhumer hull, give or take). Whilst in terms of yield, Modulated Strip Miner II will cost just 4mil, plus tech2 crystal (for a pittance) will have a yield of 787.5 (iirc) vs the base ORE strip at 700m³/3min. I have made use of the range gains of the Covetor/Hulk in a specific set of circumstances. So I have some appreciation for longer reach. But as a preference, the range of the ORE units does not provide incentive to switch when compared to pure yield gains.
Grognard Commissar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#606 - 2017-03-02 02:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Grognard Commissar
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The inventory operation actually doesn’t happen until the drones get all the way back to your ship so they don’t know until that point that the asteroid is going to be empty. The good news is that the faster excavator cycle times will significantly reduce that waste.

TBH, that wasn't really a problem at all for rorq pilots. I feel like it'l do more harm than good, in that it will really multiply the impacts of your nerfs. after a bit o thought, i can see why you're needing to do it, it's far too popular for its own good. however, the cycle time change, without an adjoining speed buff, will, i feel, cause much more of a nerf than you intend. it's really ahrd to predict with solid numbers, however
Denngarr B'tarn
Dolphin Navy Issue
#607 - 2017-03-02 02:41:20 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Excavator drones are already down to 1.2b Sell in Jita as we speak, and the supply of the drones is showing signs of outpacing demand. With the drop in demand these changes create we're likely to see a further reduction in prices.


I would bet this is artificial deflation again. The Excavation market has already had numerous hits to it. If they want to nerf the output, they need to make them cheaper to build. Even at 1.2, that's still 9 billion in assets doing 100MM per hour. Not a good balance.

Cade Windstalker wrote:
The distance increase is to make it easier to boost a group of Exhumers in a large belt and to help offset the wider spacing on asteroids.

Also you do realize 'size' means physical model size, not the amount of ore in them, right?


Yes, I knew it was model size. When you have Spod rocks with that much ore in them, and based on the size of the ore, they should look like Veld.

As for the distance, it's easy to move Hulks around in the fleet. The Rorq has such high range on boosting (107km with WC 4), I never worry about our fleet. I can get drones out to them no issues, so while it's nice to move less: I don't find it a worthwhile trade.



Now, to reiterate, it's NOT making sense to cut the yields in half after already dropping them by 25% from initial. Historically, I have seen CCP nerf a lot and buff very infrequently. This means that the changes you make are not going to get any better in coming months/years. I believe such a huge slash is going to go very, very poorly.

a) No point in Excavators at all. Risk will far outweigh rewards. At least tune up drone damage another 50% so defending vs. small gang is much more likely.

b) Yes, the prices are going down on minerals. They're back to the point they were at around 2013. That's not a bad thing. It puts more buildables in reach of the newer players and high-sec soloists. They're the ones you want to encourage out further. Beating the Rorqual up is going to negatively affect market again in the opposite direction, diluting the value of ISK.

c) If this is the determined route of CCP devs, at least modify the Excavator prints to include far less of the rogue drone parts to at least avoid the market manipulation already going on. If I'm only pushing a bill out the drone holds, then it's much more likely that I'll use it vs. shoving out 6 bil and praying.

I'd rather go back to 300MM/hr, but I don't want to see this ship completely killed of it's usefulness. Boosting is great for the fleet, but hulks/skiffs do not protect a capital well.



Wolff VonStrat
Perkone
Caldari State
#608 - 2017-03-02 03:34:10 UTC
A badly thought out knee jerk reaction to a not real problem is what the mining Nerf is. The changes to the PANIC module are at least aimed at addressing a real problem, hamfisted but at least an attempt.

Mining Nerf - Leave it alone, continue to watch and IF in another 6-12 months it still seems like an actual problem (really the mineral market is not as strong as it was is your justification) then start to test how best to alter that.

PANIC module - Yup people re using the Rorq to do things you never intended them to do, no real surprise there, just look at this player base. I can agree this is something that needs looking at but the current, must have a lock on an asteroid seems bad and clumsy. Much easier options have been suggested on here, PANIC disallows entosis is an easy one, disables EWAR, points etc. Problem fixed, the Rorq now still has some protection it can use anywhere but it's offensive exploits are (currently) closed.


Your welcome.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#609 - 2017-03-02 03:47:28 UTC
Denngarr B'tarn wrote:


b) Yes, the prices are going down on minerals. They're back to the point they were at around 2013. That's not a bad thing. It puts more buildables in reach of the newer players and high-sec soloists. They're the ones you want to encourage out further. Beating the Rorqual up is going to negatively affect market again in the opposite direction, diluting the value of ISK.



4 years ago.... it is 2017 did you notice?
For your comparison PLEX were 350? back then? now it is 1100? Do not pick on things you want to see and pass everything else.

Also how do putting wealth and favoring so much, few alliances in nullsec, help new players? It does not, it actually is against new players, no matter how much you try, 300mil/hours in your pocket, is 3mil/hour less in pocket of hundred new players! Stop being blind egoist.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2017-03-02 03:59:47 UTC
Wolff VonStrat wrote:

Mining Nerf - Leave it alone, continue to watch and IF in another 6-12 months it still seems like an actual problem (really the mineral market is not as strong as it was is your justification) then start to test how best to alter that.



In 6 months.... 20k players in sunday evening... ccp will not sell game as for how much income spiked down... devs in ccp will abandon eve, as they are so awesome that they will not work for pennys... when they will notice that everything else they touched haven't worked out, it will be too late for eve, and only solution will be to close servers...

This is history of many awesome games out there, screwed by bad decisions, and self confidence. Games having no competition to them at there time, now just look at all other sci-fi titles coming out.
Cade Windstalker
#611 - 2017-03-02 04:49:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Denngarr B'tarn wrote:
I would bet this is artificial deflation again. The Excavation market has already had numerous hits to it. If they want to nerf the output, they need to make them cheaper to build. Even at 1.2, that's still 9 billion in assets doing 100MM per hour. Not a good balance.


90% of the price of Excavators is player farmed raw materials. These materials had very little value prior to Excavators and the only thing driving their value right now is demand for Excavators. If the demand for Excavators goes down the price will follow, econ 101 in action. We're already seeing this, the price of these drones has been falling more or less since release, and these nerfs will only drop it further as people get out of Rorqual mining and sell off their ships and drones.

Denngarr B'tarn wrote:
Now, to reiterate, it's NOT making sense to cut the yields in half after already dropping them by 25% from initial. Historically, I have seen CCP nerf a lot and buff very infrequently. This means that the changes you make are not going to get any better in coming months/years. I believe such a huge slash is going to go very, very poorly.

a) No point in Excavators at all. Risk will far outweigh rewards. At least tune up drone damage another 50% so defending vs. small gang is much more likely.

b) Yes, the prices are going down on minerals. They're back to the point they were at around 2013. That's not a bad thing. It puts more buildables in reach of the newer players and high-sec soloists. They're the ones you want to encourage out further. Beating the Rorqual up is going to negatively affect market again in the opposite direction, diluting the value of ISK.

c) If this is the determined route of CCP devs, at least modify the Excavator prints to include far less of the rogue drone parts to at least avoid the market manipulation already going on. If I'm only pushing a bill out the drone holds, then it's much more likely that I'll use it vs. shoving out 6 bil and praying.

I'd rather go back to 300MM/hr, but I don't want to see this ship completely killed of it's usefulness. Boosting is great for the fleet, but hulks/skiffs do not protect a capital well.


You seem to be somewhat miss informed here. This is a 25% drop in yield (they're cutting the current yield per cycle in half, but cutting the cycle time by 1/3rd, so the total nerf is 25% base yield plus the hard to factor effect of increased travel time.

Also, again, this only holds at current Excavator prices. The price will drop as demand drops, which will happen when all the fair-weather Rorquals go back to Carriers and Supers.

Yes, mineral prices falling *is* a bad thing, because the main reason the price has gone up is due to inflation. This means that for anyone mining not in a Rorqual the buying power they generate per hour is *much* lower than before the market got flooded. Since a huge majority of items outside of ship hulls aren't tied directly to mineral prices miners are nothing but hurt by a crash in mineral prices.

There's also no market manipulation going on, the price of the Excavators is only a little over the cost of parts, and the cost of parts is largely being set by supply and demand at this point.

Raven Ship wrote:
In 6 months.... 20k players in sunday evening... ccp will not sell game as for how much income spiked down... devs in ccp will abandon eve, as they are so awesome that they will not work for pennys... when they will notice that everything else they touched haven't worked out, it will be too late for eve, and only solution will be to close servers...

This is history of many awesome games out there, screwed by bad decisions, and self confidence. Games having no competition to them at there time, now just look at all other sci-fi titles coming out.


If I had 5mil for every time I've seen someone predict that Eve would be dead in six months I could PLEX my account for the next decade. Lol
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2017-03-02 05:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Ship
Cade Windstalker wrote:


If I had 5mil for every time I've seen someone predict that Eve would be dead in six months I could PLEX my account for the next decade. Lol


Where is that part about dead in 6months? Nowhere.

What I give is example of what happened many times already, games like Vanguard, Planetside, AnarchyOnline, and there also been many forum spammers in those titles, like you , where are they now? Not in those games... so get lost from me.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#613 - 2017-03-02 10:48:01 UTC
JonasML wrote:
From the original dev post for Rorquals...."Whether these modes are running or not, the ability to field 5 ‘Excavator’ Mining Superdrones will make the Rorqual the greatest mining vessel in the history of New Eden." Well that's not only gone out the window, it's slipped off the ledge and fallen to it's splattery death 15 stories below. Take pictures now before the messy fallout get's swept up.
After these changes the Rorqual absolutely maintains its title as the greatest mining vessel in the history of New Eden. Nothing else comes close to its mining ability (not to mention all the other things it does).

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#614 - 2017-03-02 11:19:16 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:


What I give is example of what happened many times already, games like Vanguard, Planetside, AnarchyOnline, and there also been many forum spammers in those titles, like you , where are they now? Not in those games... so get lost from me.


But none of those are even remotely relevant - unless you are simply another casual gamer.

Until a game comes along that can even approach EVE in content - it will have no rival(s)!

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Iminent Penance
Your Mom's Boyfriends
#615 - 2017-03-02 11:56:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
JonasML wrote:
From the original dev post for Rorquals...."Whether these modes are running or not, the ability to field 5 ‘Excavator’ Mining Superdrones will make the Rorqual the greatest mining vessel in the history of New Eden." Well that's not only gone out the window, it's slipped off the ledge and fallen to it's splattery death 15 stories below. Take pictures now before the messy fallout get's swept up.
After these changes the Rorqual absolutely maintains its title as the greatest mining vessel in the history of New Eden. Nothing else comes close to its mining ability (not to mention all the other things it does).



By that logic nerf all ships to make capitals barely 2x subcap dps and super capitals 2.5x tops. Cut dreads dps, carriers, Titans, and supers by 55%. They'd still be "the best" by this deranged logic of "balance"

Then use the "see nothing still comes close!!!!111!!" Argument... And watch the reaction.

See now why people disagree with you? It's basic logic. It really is.


I know you really really really don't want to acknowledge this. But you know it's true.
JonasML
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#616 - 2017-03-02 11:57:05 UTC  |  Edited by: JonasML
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Denngarr B'tarn wrote:
I would bet this is artificial deflation again. The Excavation market has already had numerous hits to it. If they want to nerf the output, they need to make them cheaper to build. Even at 1.2, that's still 9 billion in assets doing 100MM per hour. Not a good balance.


90% of the price of Excavators is player farmed raw materials. These materials had very little value prior to Excavators and the only thing driving their value right now is demand for Excavators. If the demand for Excavators goes down the price will follow, econ 101 in action. We're already seeing this, the price of these drones has been falling more or less since release, and these nerfs will only drop it further as people get out of Rorqual mining and sell off their ships and drones.



The price of excavator components is being kept high by drone region alliances. The components are bought through alliance buy-orders out there and they then control the release to empire. It's not the first time it's been done nor will it be the last. Once again you display your ignorance of nullsec.

To the CAS guy who was worried that there will be nothing for new players to do... CAS has nullsec, and CAS pilots do use rorqs out there. There's also Providence region. There's plenty of options for nullsec for new players. The reduction in price for minerals allows new players to get into industry easier, things like making their own ships and ammo. For direct isk there's always missions. Exploration makes some nice isk too. The difference between highsec and nullsec is huge, and requires that the risk:reward be appropriate. If all I have to do is park some hulks in highsec to mine veld to make as much as someone out in nullsec, then what's the point of nullsec?

Dear Fozzie, for Christmas this year I would like the devs to remove their heads from their asses. We still have lots of time left before December. If you think that a ship that costs ~2.5b in minerals, plus another 1/2b in T1/T2 fittings, then loaded up with ~9b in drones and giving it a mining income 1.5 times the income of the next best mining ship (cost 300m fitted), you need to be drug tested because you are on some wacky ****. Where is my risk:reward for that kind of investment, especially as I am operating in nullsec where I can be hotdropped at any time? I know the price of the drones is being kept up artificially but this change is going to see less rorqs out there and it has nothing to do with the the PANIC changes. The only ones fielding them will be the guys with 4+ accounts who are the problem with the declining mineral value.

Fozzie I noticed you had no comment about the "bait and switch" when you quoted me. What is the dev blog for the asian server, I want to see what their reaction is to this, maybe I can get in on the class action suit.
tapny
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#617 - 2017-03-02 12:16:27 UTC
WTS rorqual
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#618 - 2017-03-02 12:33:12 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:


What I give is example of what happened many times already, games like Vanguard, Planetside, AnarchyOnline, and there also been many forum spammers in those titles, like you , where are they now? Not in those games... so get lost from me.


But none of those are even remotely relevant - unless you are simply another casual gamer.

Until a game comes along that can even approach EVE in content - it will have no rival(s)!


You are goon, and goons are known for not knowing anything.
Right now there are two games draining sci-fi players from eve, third is to come.
And I'm not sure would it be ok with forum rules to name them.
Awareness aren't sin or any bad thing, stop being goon.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#619 - 2017-03-02 13:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pesadel0
Cade Windstalker wrote:
jizzah wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is less rage than I expected tbh.

As you said earlier in your post, it's a 14 year old game. One thing we've all gradually come to learn during our individual times is there absolutely zero point in complaining here. Posts get deleted, conflicts muddly the topic and threads get locked.

What you shouldn't take from the 'tame' aspect of the thread is everyone's hunky f**king dory about what you're doing.


That's not what he said... Lol

He's just saying that, compared to other major nerf threads, this one is getting a lot fewer posts and a lot less rage than some others.

The Marauder thread for example ran to over 100 pages before the changes were deployed. That one, by the way, was also a solid example of CCP taking and listening to feedback. People didn't like the first set of changes, so CCP tweaked them based on feedback and then *even more people* didn't like those and wanted the first set back, so they swapped back to the first set with some tweaks.

Which, by the way, also disproves your theory that CCP doesn't listen to feedback. CCP listens to feedback, but if you want to make an argument you need to provide more to back it up than harsh words. CCP Greyscale made an excellent post on how to give constructive feedback several years ago, should really be required reading around here IMO.

My takeaway from 8 or so years on the FaID and then UFaCFC forums has been that people are more likely to speak out when they're against something than in favor of it, by several orders of magnitude. That's why the "good change" posts tend to be a few words and then the posters disappear from the thread while the angry people keep circle-jerking around in a loop about how bad the changes are, generally without producing any concrete numbers to back up their arguments, which is why CCP rarely heeds them.


That is exactlly what jizzah is saying this thread is getting less rage because people dont care , and that is a bad thing mate not good .And i dindt read a good reason from the devs telling us why the mineral crash would be a bad thing , i mean isnt the market self regulated like the drone prices are ?Maybe i'am being dense here but if people out mine the rourquals eventually will make less cash ...





CCP Fozzie wrote:
JonasML wrote:
From the original dev post for Rorquals...."Whether these modes are running or not, the ability to field 5 ‘Excavator’ Mining Superdrones will make the Rorqual the greatest mining vessel in the history of New Eden." Well that's not only gone out the window, it's slipped off the ledge and fallen to it's splattery death 15 stories below. Take pictures now before the messy fallout get's swept up.
After these changes the Rorqual absolutely maintains its title as the greatest mining vessel in the history of New Eden. Nothing else comes close to its mining ability (not to mention all the other things it does).


Fozzie stating the obvious.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#620 - 2017-03-02 13:21:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It’s also possible that the next change might need to be another nerf

Why dont you nerf belts instead? Why do we have infinite ore in the first place?