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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

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MajkStone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2017-02-24 00:00:07 UTC
Archeos wrote:
PANIC module can only be activated by having a lock on an asteroid ?

What if i just finished an asteroid and still have a cycle on my inustrial core and get dropped ?
What if i get dropped while travelling from one asteroid to another ?
And the gang dropping on me has a falcon that ECM's me ?

This is an absolutely idiotic solution. Can't you just make it so that the panic button breaks all target locks, and you can only activate panic when you have the industrial core running. And futhermore make fitting or running the industrial core disable the use of any ewar modules on the rorqual.

As for the nerf of excavator drones - ARE YOU KIDDING ME ? A set of excavators costs 7 Billion + 2.7 for the rorq + fittings, that makes the rorqual a 12 billion ship, that barely makes nearly the same income than a carrier (ratting ticks+ ESS lp + loot) at SIX TIMES THE COST OF A CARRIER !!! I just spent a LOT of money to fit my rorq, and now you want me to go back to carrier ratting ??

I understand that the mineral market is not healthy right now, but there must be better solutions. Such as finding a sinkhole for the excess minerals like tritanium and pyrite. Just increase the ammounts of those minerals needed to build ships and structures, and the market will get healthy pretty quickly again.

If you want to close the gap between the rorq and an a exhumer just buff the exhumers, but leave the rorq alone.

CCP FOZZIE don't mess this game again.



Exactly.
nm Kain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#242 - 2017-02-24 00:05:18 UTC
The Rorqual changes are awful. I might not have the numbers correct, but without skills of any kind, the mining yield is 400m3 per drone and with the changes it will be 110m3 which is like a 70% nerf on top of the 30% to mining yield a month or 2 ago. It's rediculous. I won't go into it too much but I am seriously looking at different games to play, as I have had my fill of CCP bad choices.
feelthelove
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#243 - 2017-02-24 00:06:34 UTC
Congrats fozzie it has only taken me 5 years to become even a little interested in mining, you have now killed that interest so thoroughly I will probably never consider mining again.
Hopeless Slave
161st Special Operations Regiment
Goonswarm Federation
#244 - 2017-02-24 00:07:16 UTC
just have to say...glad this post came out today... was going to resub another account and skill inject to a rorq... guess not..

Panic has needs to be allowed without indi core running or target locked.... its original purpose has saved my rorq and barges when I finished a belt and was trying to warp squad to another belt and got bubbled and attacked by a 30 man gang that came from a wormhole, I lit cyno and help arrived. fleet saved me.. your current theory of its fix would have been the loss of the whole mining fleet. for a fleet form and jump 9 jumps would take to long with out panic and a cyno. changes to the running of warp scrams & webs should be removed when in panic. problem solved.

as for the drone changes. November dev post.
""By themselves a set of ‘Excavator’ Superdrones make the Rorqual the most powerful mining ship in the game, and when boosted by an active Industrial Core module they each individually gain the yield of an Exhumer"".
forum response, the 15th post down:
"...[i]The optimal setup isn't going to be rorq + fleet, it's going to be a gigantic fleet of rorqs ...
so with this being the 2nd major nerf in 4 months, you went from look how great this is- capital mining to .. mining look at my 12 billion isk venture
it was completely know what was going to happen. mining amounts should stay the same at this time.

need to look at this from a different angle the only reason for drop in price is demand.
to solve this i believe you should:
(1) fix the mineral comp of null anomalies to eliminate the bottle neck as state before. mex is a major bottleneck.
(2) to increase demand for mins you could remove the other bottle neck of limited manufacturing jobs. change skills to allow for 30 jobs and the mins would be used faster to meet supply
MajkStone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2017-02-24 00:08:36 UTC
Why don't you consider reducing the amount of yield that the Ore asteroid itself drops (refining), instead of nerfing the extremely expensive and risky to fly capital ship.


If you nerf the roids across the board it will accomplish the goal of lowering the mineral supply while not pissing off every single rorqual pilot, while maintaining balance among the mining ships.
Side1Bu2Rnz9
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#246 - 2017-02-24 00:09:49 UTC
nm Kain wrote:
The Rorqual changes are awful. I might not have the numbers correct, but without skills of any kind, the mining yield is 400m3 per drone and with the changes it will be 110m3 which is like a 70% nerf on top of the 30% to mining yield a month or 2 ago. It's rediculous. I won't go into it too much but I am seriously looking at different games to play, as I have had my fill of CCP bad choices.


You're numbers a completely off... check in game or check anything at all...

Current escavator drones collect 220 m3 every 90 seconds.
After March patch the escavator drones collect 110m3 every 60 seconds.
Without calculating travel time into the equation that's only about a 25% nerf.
Counting travel time and knowing that drones will travel more due to the reduced cycle times... nerf is slightly more and more dependent on distance from roid.
Falcon Starwalker
Suboc Industries
#247 - 2017-02-24 00:14:32 UTC
CCP yet again has no idea what balance is. They buff T2 mining drones to be 1/3 as good as excavators and cost 1100x's less.

They don't realize that the market is crashing not due to the influx of minerals, but rather from an imbalance in the ores.

If this doesn't make sense to you, than think of it like this...

Let us assume that the overall avg of all T1 ships in the game take the following minerals - (using small numbers to make this easier to understand)

Trit: 1100
Pyrite: 900
Mex: 500
Iso: 200
Nox: 50
Zyd: 10
Mega: 1

Now lets assume the basic avg of all ore sites to be - (using absurdly small numbers to make this easier to understand)

Trit: 15000
Pyrite: 10000
Mex: 5000
Iso: 1000
Nox: 500
Zyd: 50
Mega: 3

Yes I know those are not the right numbers, but it shows the basic idea here. Which is that with high ends like Zydrine and Megacyte being seriously low in avg availability and minerals like Trit and Pyerite being vastly over produced, no matter what they do you will see the market fall on those minerals that are found in abundance.

The only reason this is being seen so drastically right now is the rate at which the market is being supplied has increased, with production only just starting to increase to match it. With null ore anoms requiring you to mine the entire site for a respawn (even after DT) then there will be a continued influx of unwanted minerals, so that the wanted minerals (Mega/Zydrine/Nocx) can then be mined to fill the needs of the market.

There are only 2 ways to fix this. Either having ore anoms hold huge quantities (IE: like old ICE belts) or a complete rebalance of the ores contained in the current anoms to more accurately fill the needs of industry while not over producing the low ends to such a degree that they become a waste product of mining.

The issue should not be how much in total is mined, as that balances itself out over time, but that there is a more even distribution of minerals based on avg build costs. You can still make low ends have slightly more and bottleneck the high ends a bit, but in doing so, you have to still maintain a certain level of balance or the need for high ends will eventually make low ends worthless.
nm Kain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#248 - 2017-02-24 00:16:54 UTC
Side1Bu2Rnz9 wrote:
nm Kain wrote:
The Rorqual changes are awful. I might not have the numbers correct, but without skills of any kind, the mining yield is 400m3 per drone and with the changes it will be 110m3 which is like a 70% nerf on top of the 30% to mining yield a month or 2 ago. It's rediculous. I won't go into it too much but I am seriously looking at different games to play, as I have had my fill of CCP bad choices.


You're numbers a completely off... check in game or check anything at all...

Current escavator drones collect 220 m3 every 90 seconds.
After March patch the escavator drones collect 110m3 every 60 seconds.
Without calculating travel time into the equation that's only about a 25% nerf.
Counting travel time and knowing that drones will travel more due to the reduced cycle times... nerf is slightly more and more dependent on distance from roid.


Thanks for clearing that up. It's still overall a 55% nerf in the last 2 months which is obsurd. 30% from the first nerf and now a 25% on this nerf. If you are static on a large roid like Spud, you can churn around 300m an hour. Now.. Take 25% off and you get only 225m3, 75,000,000 m3 less. It's totally rediculous. I'm off to sell my drones and Rorqual.
paintballlawss Padecain
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2017-02-24 00:18:57 UTC
You want to know my feedback you say? Well here it is you are basically killing indy again and again you give them buffs and six months down the road you nerf the **** out of the buffs and nerf 20 other things on top of that to make it even worse for people. No one who does mining will use a rorq as the amount you are mining is much cheaper to obtain buy having 3 alts in hulks that cost 20 times less than the rorq. Why instead of nerfing indy **** again you nerf mega coalitions and fix sov again or just fix the other 10,000 problems in the game but nerfing the rorq again will just make it not used these changes are completely outrageous and you guys seriously need to look at who your making these changes for are you making them for MEGA COALITIONS or are you nerfing them for small alliances because as it stands NO small alliance will use a rorq because its not worth it anymore. You have effectively taken away all defenses for the ship(ie. bubbles, PANIC, and its damage is not strong enough to defend its). So if you really want to change things instead of talking to alliances that run half of eve you should talk to smaller alliances and corporations because all your doing is making MEGA coalitions even stronger by forcing them to join 1 out of 3 Coalitions in the game just to protect themselves. Please talk to the the other half of eve and not just the people that can afford 500 rorqs in there region because they own half of eve.

[END OF RANT]
#whymineanymore
#priceofrorqsgoingdownthedrain
Julia Shipping
Julia Shipping Ltd.
#250 - 2017-02-24 00:28:19 UTC
I won't touch the PANIC change, that module was just toxic. Maybe not the best changes, but something was needed.

Rorqual changes? Well, I'm mining on a single toon, I don't have 20 chars stripping a belt in 2 hours flat. I love the rorqual, allows me to mine quick enough that I can compete for capital / freighter builds. I get about 135M per hour with positioning and flight time and all. I'm sure you can do more, but most of the numbers thrown around are e-peen measuring. Sure there can be spikes, much like ratting and incursions.

It comes down to the ROI. 9 bils to fit a Rorqual for a 90 hour ROI? WTF? I'm making better money subbing 3 hulks and a purpoise. Fix the cost of the damn thing and maybe you won't get as much push back when you slash the promised income by the obvious nerf (m3) and the implied nerfs (more flight time with the shorter duration).

To be honest, if you don't get the price of the excavators under control, I'll mine with T2, it'll be more economical to have throwaway rorquals then having excavators. Give the drones some trashloot, not just the faction drones. There's not enough volume to prevent market f#$@^#!@## on the market. Any marketer with deep enough pocket can just buy off one of the part and raise the prices to silly amounts.

Last thing, screw the precious mineral prices. This is a free market and you've convinced all the bored multi-boxers to actually do something. There's probably more dead Rorquals in a week then super and titans in a year. You said you were going to make it worth for us to put them in belt. Congrats, you did it. Now it's crashing the market? Well, let the offer regulate itself. Or make changes to absorb the surplus, you've got structures that require massive amounts of parts, yet the holdup is always PI, never the minerals.

Stop trying to save your market, let the mineral drag the prices down and sort out your ISK input.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#251 - 2017-02-24 00:47:29 UTC
nm Kain wrote:

Thanks for clearing that up. It's still overall a 55% nerf in the last 2 months which is obsurd. 30% from the first nerf and now a 25% on this nerf. If you are static on a large roid like Spud, you can churn around 300m an hour. Now.. Take 25% off and you get only 225m3, 75,000,000 m3 less. It's totally rediculous. I'm off to sell my drones and Rorqual.

The first 'nerf' was because of a maths error somewhere in the Dev department, which resulted in Rorquals mining far more than they had announced & intended. So should be treated as a bug fix, not a nerf, since there was an unannounced buff to the initial stats of Rorquals which was then exactly cancelled.
Nove Nuke
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#252 - 2017-02-24 00:59:49 UTC
RIP thanks for Killing my Rorqual this is wrong to steal 14 Billion ISK of my hard earned ISK. and 10 years in the game. one word says it all.... NUTS
Namii Chikyuu
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2017-02-24 01:02:07 UTC
I know my opinion won't matter much and although it's already been beat to death this was the worst way to fix panic module warfare possible. But on another note how about all the harping about risk versus reward that constantly beat to death when talking about carrier ratting etc, now you've effectively cut the excavator drones output in half over the last nerf and this nerf. how about you cut the industrial core duration in half to balance out the whole risk/reward calculation. I mean it seems you are turning the rorq from an independent miner to a pure boosting/utilitarian platform. Or make the excavators dirt cheap right now a single drone can cost as much as building a rorquel. I could accept a cost of around 2 exhumers per drone as a norm myself. Right now the rorqual is a great content generator for defensive fleets but how many of them are going to be left on the field when it's inefficient to fly them versus the multi-box fleets we all use to run?
xenoace
State War Academy
Caldari State
#254 - 2017-02-24 01:04:20 UTC
leave the rorquals alone for gods sake
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#255 - 2017-02-24 01:14:00 UTC
Currently Cleaning, Please Hold.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#256 - 2017-02-24 01:33:32 UTC
Quote:
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Vulfpeck
Dreamville Records
#257 - 2017-02-24 01:50:02 UTC
One of the worst nerfs you could have done to rorquals, honestly. It's already a huge risk to put them out and on field and now you make them as powerful as two characters with less then 5 million sp with a 700-800m investment. Not the 25m+ SP plus 10-15 billion investment for one ship.


at this point nerf them out of the game or fix and make other things viable and encourage large fights and more roaming to happen to handle the market.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#258 - 2017-02-24 01:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark O'Helm
CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • Buffing the Mining Laser Field Enhancement foreman link from 30% to 40% base bonus.
  • Increasing the optimal range of the ORE strip miners (to 18.75km) and ORE ice harvesters (to 12.5km).
    • I love it.Big smileBig smileBig smile

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    Trevize Demerzel
    #259 - 2017-02-24 01:52:56 UTC
    ISD Max Trix wrote:
    Quote:
    2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

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    3. Ranting is prohibited.

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    4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

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    The very fact you had do to this so soon... shows this nerf is wrong. very wrong.

    -
    Baelok The Bastard
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #260 - 2017-02-24 01:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Baelok The Bastard
    The amount of rorquals dying every week are in the 100s of billions of isk destroyed, people love the rorquals because it makes mining actually a worthwhile profession and investment in the game, great risk=great isk.

    If you keep nerfing the ******* **** out of them people won't be inclined to use them and once again less content will be happening in the game, maybe with your influx of all these alphas all these minerals are helping them stick to the game since things aren't as expensive as they used to be now.


    Half Assed Idea