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Requesting the CSM to ask CCP to remove Jump Fatigue

First post First post
Author
Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#161 - 2015-04-21 09:48:17 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
As you see, someone on the CSM has asked CCP to reconsider these changes.


Which makes _YOU_ the perfect candidate to ask CCP NOT to reconsider.

@Utari: Not sure Volt/Yulai are the perfect examples of great defense fleets, especially since their space is infested with reds on a daily basis.

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.

Partsking
New Eden Marshals Service
#162 - 2015-04-22 21:33:58 UTC
Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.

+1
David Godfrey
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2015-04-23 02:39:09 UTC
I am rather liking the changes, but that is probably because I enjoy flying subcaps more often. I do agree however that the nerfbat strike was a little too harsh. As above, it should have been either a pure range nerf or just fatigue, keeping the original range.

- just my 2 cents

Don't let the void consume you...

Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#164 - 2015-04-23 09:32:25 UTC
Partsking wrote:
Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.

+1


Did you do the math with your proposal? ;)
Partsking
New Eden Marshals Service
#165 - 2015-04-23 14:00:09 UTC
Lakotnik wrote:
Partsking wrote:
Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.

+1


Did you do the math with your proposal? ;)



I don't care about the math. I know that it's likely the only compromise they'll consider. vOv
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2015-04-23 16:25:25 UTC
Partsking wrote:
Lakotnik wrote:
Partsking wrote:
Give us back our range and you can keep the fatigue.

+1


Did you do the math with your proposal? ;)



I don't care about the math. I know that it's likely the only compromise they'll consider. vOv


Gicen the choice between a bad compromise and no compromise, why do you think CCP will elect to compromise at all?

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Conflict Engaged
Perkone
Caldari State
#167 - 2015-04-26 14:14:33 UTC
Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#168 - 2015-04-26 22:00:43 UTC
Conflict Engaged wrote:
Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.


If you make it about cost, PL will be back to hotdropping rookie ships with fleets of supercaps in no time at all.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2015-04-27 04:45:09 UTC
Conflict Engaged wrote:
Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.

it was about cost originally, if you recall jumps required and still do require Isotopes. It didnt stop them
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#170 - 2015-04-27 09:50:29 UTC
Conflict Engaged wrote:
Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.


Fuel costs won't work unless they engineer them to be so astronomically high no matter how many are produced. How much fatigue and how it was gained needs more thought.

If the aim was to prevent people dog piling in on a system within 20 minutes of a fight kicking off, then the current mechanics are way to severe and need to be targeted more cleverly. I'd be happy with a compromise whereby the larger the ship mass, the more fatigue is accumulated but in turn the distances that can be jumped needs to be increased and the build up of space aids decreased. It shouldn't have to take a couple of days to jump from Tribute to Delve in a taxi carrier, there is no fun in that. It's just wasted time but I could live with it taking a good few hours to prevent the whole dog piling thing.

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2015-04-27 21:36:34 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Conflict Engaged wrote:
Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.


Fuel costs won't work unless they engineer them to be so astronomically high no matter how many are produced. How much fatigue and how it was gained needs more thought.

If the aim was to prevent people dog piling in on a system within 20 minutes of a fight kicking off, then the current mechanics are way to severe and need to be targeted more cleverly. I'd be happy with a compromise whereby the larger the ship mass, the more fatigue is accumulated but in turn the distances that can be jumped needs to be increased and the build up of space aids decreased. It shouldn't have to take a couple of days to jump from Tribute to Delve in a taxi carrier, there is no fun in that. It's just wasted time but I could live with it taking a good few hours to prevent the whole dog piling thing.


why shouldnt it? why shouldnt you be inconvenienced enough by local geography and distances to care? why should 1 power be able to go to war with another power on the other side of new eden?

answer, they shouldnt. Because as long as you are able to reach that power on the other side of the galaxy and remain comfortable, ANY group or power that tries to build itself up between you and them is easy pickings for both parties, because they are well within reach.

The current fatigue system was designed with extreme penalties because some places are Supposed to be out of reach! as long as there are areas you cant get to without severely inconveniencing yourself, then there are areas where the map can change.
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#172 - 2015-04-28 12:12:36 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Conflict Engaged wrote:
Jump Fatigue is a very nice way to limit travel times, which gives traveling the need for a strategic think of what you're doing, but where Jump Bridges are concerned, it's quite pointless. Maybe if CCP were to remove Jump Fatigue completely, add something else such as fuel costs to the mix, to slow down how quickly you can get from A to B, or make you review whether travelling your 200+ supercap fleet across New Eden for an invasion is actually worth it.


Fuel costs won't work unless they engineer them to be so astronomically high no matter how many are produced. How much fatigue and how it was gained needs more thought.

If the aim was to prevent people dog piling in on a system within 20 minutes of a fight kicking off, then the current mechanics are way to severe and need to be targeted more cleverly. I'd be happy with a compromise whereby the larger the ship mass, the more fatigue is accumulated but in turn the distances that can be jumped needs to be increased and the build up of space aids decreased. It shouldn't have to take a couple of days to jump from Tribute to Delve in a taxi carrier, there is no fun in that. It's just wasted time but I could live with it taking a good few hours to prevent the whole dog piling thing.


why shouldnt it? why shouldnt you be inconvenienced enough by local geography and distances to care? why should 1 power be able to go to war with another power on the other side of new eden?

answer, they shouldnt. Because as long as you are able to reach that power on the other side of the galaxy and remain comfortable, ANY group or power that tries to build itself up between you and them is easy pickings for both parties, because they are well within reach.

The current fatigue system was designed with extreme penalties because some places are Supposed to be out of reach! as long as there are areas you cant get to without severely inconveniencing yourself, then there are areas where the map can change.


You utterly miss the point of what I said. You see Goon and it's all sandy clunge and hat gons rather than a reasonable and objective discussion.

The point was that instant force projection was bad, it's gone. Great! However it's just inconvenienced deployment via a capital taxi from half an hour to several days, maybe a week at extremes distances. As long as there is a low sec or null NPC station that can be docked in, you can go to war with anyone eventually. Imperium just did that with Fountain and Delve. There is nothing really wrong with that and CCP can't really prevent it no matter what mechanic they add. I'm not saying put it back to what it was but the space aids mechanic was both blanket and too extreme in many circumstances.

Maybe you're just someone who's never lived in null and is not aware of the reality of how it works, especially with merc groups and the more highly mobile specialised groups which tend to fight brushfire wars. These areas can still be reached eventually but adding the time to get to them by several thousand % has no real positive effect on anything, it's just a pain to move fit ships around and in a worst case you end up with boring ship doctrines like the ubiquitous Ishtar fleet (not just because Sentries are OP or the Ishtar is OP either but a series of features which mean it's very good in the current meta) and completely rely on having a JF service. It doesn't really add anything and doesn't change an outcome, it just means people spend more time being bored.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#173 - 2015-04-28 18:59:38 UTC
You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!

The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.

Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2

The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly.

When there is close to zero opportunity cost for moving very quickly, then everyone is your next door neighbour. A situation like this very quickly leads to a two-colour map with zero opportunity for anyone not in one of the two blocs to have any meaningful independent existence regardless of any sov system in place.

Thus the three phases of the sov rework, the first two of which have completely reversed the situation as it was in September 2014

1) The Phoebe changes make it militarily even possible to have more than 2 powers on the map. Pre-Phoebe it wasn't.

2) The "Fozziesov" changes will make it extremely difficult (not impossible, but requiring enormous effort) to hold space that you don't live in and utilise. Currently it's trivial.

3) The 3rd phase will be to rework the local economy of nullsec to make it viable to have a relatively small amount of space support a large number of players.

There will still be wars. There will still be coalitions and diplomacy and politics. There will still be long distance deployments and failcascades and battles. What we won't have, if this all works out, is the old stagnant sitaution where everyone sat on their hands for a year at a time, then there was a gigantic lagfest battle that ultimately meant nothing, because the winner didn't even want the loser's space.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#174 - 2015-04-28 19:01:24 UTC
Incidentally, if all you want to do is move your "taxi carrier", then get a corpie or a friend or even an alt to find an appropriate wormhole.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#175 - 2015-05-04 06:54:25 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
You utterly miss the point of what I said. You see Goon and it's all sandy clunge and hat gons rather than a reasonable and objective discussion.


Stop putting words in peoples mouths. Nobody was discriminating against Goons. You can always have your Alt1 move things from A to B, your 2nd alt from B to C, your main clonejumps from A to C, voila. No fatigue and your stuff is where it should be.

Multple Character training, do you even use it?
corebloodbrothers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#176 - 2015-05-04 08:20:07 UTC
I love the way it is now, its ofc a quick patch to a more structural issue in null sec force projection, and requires more mechanicsms, wihtout those we also not where we wánt to be.

But atm if i look at kills pilots for example in provi get ,they up in numbers and isk, big time, ee have fights without the world pilling onto them, as currently wiht nc. Super and cap deployment is limited and so is tidi. All seem to have fun and fatique and range add strategic choices too it.


For form ups people can travel in industrials through the jb network, ceptors, and jumpclones. Those combined take care of most traffic realised.

So as a player and as a csm i am happy with it for now, and more intrested how it will hold under the new sov mechanics with fozzie sov, and hopefully further down the line with structures, buildable stargates and long term future. I ma also intrsted in the rebalance of titans nad supers, in combo wiht fatique.

So whilst its not your ultimate feature, its a quick patch that workes like intended untiill and so on.
Stuyvenstein Pompetti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2015-05-04 22:20:06 UTC
I support the idea of jump fatigue in making sov less stagnant, but I also think having it on jump bridges is a little overkill but removing it from jbs would then most likely make most people go jump bridge crazy. So instead, maybe have a fatigue reduction bonus on jump bridges the same way as on industrial ships?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#178 - 2015-05-05 07:39:33 UTC
Stuyvenstein Pompetti wrote:
I support the idea of jump fatigue in making sov less stagnant, but I also think having it on jump bridges is a little overkill but removing it from jbs would then most likely make most people go jump bridge crazy. So instead, maybe have a fatigue reduction bonus on jump bridges the same way as on industrial ships?



So we can keep the lovely big coalitions intact?:

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#179 - 2015-05-09 08:07:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!

The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.

Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2

The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly.
.



Yes, which I agreed with, as stated. Is there something wrong with reading comprehension in this forum or are people deliberately truculent?
Iain Cariaba
#180 - 2015-05-09 21:28:49 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!

The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.

Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2

The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly.
.



Yes, which I agreed with, as stated. Is there something wrong with reading comprehension in this forum or are people deliberately truculent?

Both.